Tzeentch win Cancon and the GW GT Heat 1

[Dejnar]

Hiya!

Where can I find the results for Cancon and LVO? My googling has lead me nowhere. 

/D

 

[ravman]

Having experienced Tzeentch this weekend these are the changes I would make.

extra rend from conflagaration only if within 9"

no retreat on a +5

Teleport on a +3

Remove the unmodified rule on DD

Bosh

[NJohansson]

5 minutes ago, Storm said:

No-one deserves that 😥

100 percent this.

The situation with flamers is also one of the main problems with AOS in regards to LOS, cover and terrain rules. Since you can’t hide nor get any form of protection shooting becomes either to good and breaks the game or it needs to be non existing. 

[Kramer]

21 minutes ago, Storm said:

No-one deserves that 😥

I love the KO treatment so far 💁‍♀️
But I also love my Ogor Tome

[Death1942]

1 hour ago, Dejnar said:

Hiya!

Where can I find the results for Cancon and LVO? My googling has lead me nowhere. 

/D

 

There is a thread in the general section with some Cancon results (pretty rough).  Cancon was actually named Call To Gory and is on the Down Under Pairings website/tournament system.  If you want to see (almost all of) the lists they are on the Heralds of War website.

[Smooth criminal]

GW got into the trap of zero cost allegiance abilities again like with Slaanesh. Tzeentch's scrolls are fine, but some allegiance choice combinations makes them a bit too good.

There is a limit of how good your allegiance can be before you become broken and Tzeentch has passed it. Careful errata can fix this.

[Dead Scribe]

Or this is intended and this will dominate for a little while and people will buy tzeentch to play this and win with it until the next set of changes this summer with GHB 2020.

[Kramer]

24 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

Or this is intended and this will dominate for a little while and people will buy tzeentch to play this and win with it until the next set of changes this summer with GHB 2020.

Or serephon keep their vs. DEAMONS abilities and just walks over tzeentch 😂

go dino’s! 

[Forrix]

Haven't had a chance to play with Tzeentch yet but from reading the book and watching some games I'd make the following changes:

Destiny Dice are modifiable. Maybe there's some interaction I'm missing but using them to auto-pass battleshock with a 6 or ignore rend feels both counter-intuitive and too powerful (ignore rend is more niche but you could shield your Gaunt Summoner from a KO Ironclad cannon snipe with it).

Pink Horror Icon returns d3 models on a battleshock roll of 1 instead of d6. I don't think the warscroll itself is that problematic but that jumps out as being pretty crazy if you roll high on the slain returns. Plague drones in Nurgle (5 wounds) are a d3 so that feels more reasonable and doesn't gut the warscroll which it feels like a lot of people are trying to do.

Gaunt Summoner summons 10 blue horrors instead of pink. Simple change but I think the idea of him summoning a basic demon unit of each type is thrown out of whack when one of those units is worth about 2x the points of the other choices.

Flamers. These are trickier since they're such a glass cannon unit I'm worried they'll become worthless fast. I'm not too sure what to do with them other than a warscroll rewrite but maybe reduce their native hit to a 5+ or shorten their range. Basically try to solidify their role as an anti-horde unit instead of an anti-everything unit.

Changehost. Again I'm not really sure how to handle this but I don't like 1 drop armies in general so I'd just reduce what you can take it in it. Otherwise just go off of other people's suggestions or hope the above are enough.

 

I'm honestly very nervous about Tzeentch considering how strong the community reaction is, GW's answer to the Nurgle DP CA, and the otherwise generally fragile nature of Tzeentch.  I think the book is definitely one of those that makes me scratch my head at how it ever made it to print but I'm worried the pitch-fork crowd is going to have it nerfed into oblivion, especially the horror warscroll.

[Beliman]

4 minutes ago, Forrix said:

Destiny Dice are modifiable. Maybe there's some interaction I'm missing but using them to auto-pass battleshock with a 6 or ignore rend feels both counter-intuitive and too powerful (ignore rend is more niche but you could shield your Gaunt Summoner from a KO Ironclad cannon snipe with it).

What's the trick for DD and Battleshock and Rend?

I'm not used to play versus any Tzeentch player (yet) and  I'm still learning how they play.

[Dolomyte]

4 minutes ago, Beliman said:

What's the trick for DD and Battleshock and Rend?

I'm not used to play versus any Tzeentch player (yet) and  I'm still learning how they play.

If you use a destiny dice the roll becomes unmodifiable, so he may have lost 15 horrors but it counts as 0 if he spends a DD for the check. Which makes even 6s pass

[Beliman]

3 minutes ago, Dolomyte said:

If you use a destiny dice the roll becomes unmodifiable, so he may have lost 15 horrors but it counts as 0 if he spends a DD for the check. Which makes even 6s pass

Wow, thanks a lot. I didn't catch that. Don't know if it's intended but it's disgusting...

[Dolomyte]

3 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Wow, thanks a lot. I didn't catch that. Don't know if it's intended but it's disgusting...

Hmmm I don’t know how much I care about it. OBR entirely, daughters mostly , have battleshock immunity on giant hordes. Its powerful but not what I think is wrong with the army. It also drains a resource

[Eevika]

3 hours ago, Kramer said:

I love the KO treatment so far 💁‍♀️
But I also love my Ogor Tome

By KO treatment I believe they mean the mega nerf to mortars after release of the first book. 

[Forrix]

4 minutes ago, Dolomyte said:

Hmmm I don’t know how much I care about it. OBR entirely, daughters mostly , have battleshock immunity on giant hordes. Its powerful but not what I think is wrong with the army. It also drains a resource

It helps keep the horrors alive and feels counter-intuitive (at least to me) so its a way of dialing things back without wrecking the unit or book. It also makes the "Just kill the heroes" advice actually effective if you can pull it off (most Tzeentch heroes are some of the squishiest in the game).  Battleshock immunity on hordes is a pretty strong mechanic, both of those examples are 60% or higher win rate armies.  

[Clan's Cynic]

8 minutes ago, Eevika said:

By KO treatment I believe they mean the mega nerf to mortars after release of the first book. 

Let's be honest, GW could line the pages of a Battletome with anthrax and some would say it's great.

I'm definitely subscribing to that theory that there's either two people, or two teams, who seem to handle every other Battletome though. One that produces fluffy but pretty 'okayish maybe' ruleswise and another that's extremely powerful with meh internal balance. People will say "well I like the fluffy one!" but sadly AoS doesn't exist in a vacuum where we only play fluffy Battletomes vs other fluffy Battletomes.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Clan's Cynic

[Craze]

I guess one of the most simple ways to balance the Changhost + Conflagration/Multitudous would be to reduce the teleporting of units to 1 per Hero Phase, which would prevent the DoT player to teleport both a Flamer + the buffing Exalted Flamer. 

[Daramiz]

19 minutes ago, Dolomyte said:

Hmmm I don’t know how much I care about it. OBR entirely, daughters mostly , have battleshock immunity on giant hordes. Its powerful but not what I think is wrong with the army. It also drains a resource

Guild of Summoners has a battleshock immunity artifact, so Tzeentch has the option. It's just supposed to be balanced around difficult choices.

[Sinfullyvannila]

5 minutes ago, Forrix said:

It helps keep the horrors alive and feels counter-intuitive (at least to me) so its a way of dialing things back without wrecking the unit or book. It also makes the "Just kill the heroes" advice actually effective if you can pull it off (most Tzeentch heroes are some of the squishiest in the game).  Battleshock immunity on hordes is a pretty strong mechanic, both of those examples are 60% or higher win rate armies.  

Gloomspite Gitz and Cities can do it through massive CP generation. Mawtribes can do it through Bully. Slaves can do it with Undivided mark. I can probably go on.

[PrimeElectrid]

1 minute ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

Gloomspite Gitz and Cities can do it through massive CP generation. Mawtribes can do it through Bully. Slaves can do it with Undivided mark. I can probably go on.

Do any of those armies have a 100 wound unit that can teleport, auto-charge, and lock you in combat, though?

[Sinfullyvannila]

8 minutes ago, PrimeElectrid said:

Do any of those armies have a 100 wound unit that can teleport, auto-charge, and lock you in combat, though?

No but any problems with Changehost is fixable by making the battalion cost 1700 points. Absolutely no need to visit any other mechanics. Especially not a core mechanic that otherwise got an absolutely massive nerf.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Sinfullyvannila

[AverageBoss]

10 minutes ago, PrimeElectrid said:

Do any of those armies have a 100 wound unit that can teleport, auto-charge, and lock you in combat, though?

The teleport, and lock in combat are not native warscroll abilities. They come from outside the warscroll optional abilities that not everyone will take.

So looking at just the warscroll, you get 100 wounds at a 6+ save for 400 points.
Clanrats have 80 wounds at a 5+ for the same points.
Chaos Warriors have 40 wounds at a 4+ with reroll on all saves, and a 5+ to ignore mortals.

Edited January 27, 2020 by AverageBoss

[Dolomyte]

8 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

No but any problems with Changehost is fixable by making the battalion cost 1700 points. Absolutely no need to visit any other mechanics. Especially not a core mechanic that otherwise got an absolutely massive nerf.

Correct, changehost is a bigger issue imo. I think pinks might be slightly undercosted but the morale issue is not the issue with the army 

[AverageBoss]

As with just about every tome with subfactions, the the vast majority of the problems with DoT are certain OP subfactions with no drawbacks, and/or op battalions creating an easy plug and play 1 drop list that take advantage of the strengths that gives you including taking advantage of AoS turn mechanics.

[Dreadmund]

My big problem with Changehost Flamer Spam is that it has a very low Skill Floor. Go first 90% of the time, teleport within 18 inches of whatever you want dead and delete it. Very hard to mess up. Changehost teleports can't fail like other teleportation abilities either, so you won't get punished for going all in on a strategy that might not succeed, because it almost always does. It definitely needs to change, but I really hope they don't overcorrect and make flamers unusable again. Personally, I think like the idea of restricting where a unit can teleport in the same way that summoning works. So, wholly within 12" of a hero and more than 9" away from an enemy model. That's still a brilliant army, but requires planning and skill to set up. Also prevents you using it effectively in the first turn a lot of the time and gives the opponent a chance to defend against it.