Tzeentch win Cancon and the GW GT Heat 1

[angrycontra]

While I agree changehost/horrors/flamers needs nerf (and sooner rather than later) however I don't really understand what this nonsense is about horrors being immune to bshock. That roll of 1 making them immune (plus res) ONLY applies to unit when pink horror icon bearer is alive. I don't disagree that doing 50-100 wounds to a unit with -1 to hit is going to be hard, but 10-20 pinks should literally die in 1 combat/shooting phase (and you must always allocate wounds to pinks first) and succesfully killing any heroes near them will remove the whole -1 as well (not to mention bshock immunity through commands).

Edited January 27, 2020 by angrycontra

[AverageBoss]

2 minutes ago, angrycontra said:

While I agree changehost/horrors/flamers needs nerf (and sooner rather than later) however I don't really understand what this nonsense is about horrors being immune to bshock. That roll of 1 making them immune (plus res) ONLY applies to unit when pink horror icon bearer is alive. I don't disagree that doing 50-100 wounds to a unit with -1 to hit is going to be hard, but 10-20 pinks should literally die in 1 combat/shooting phase (and you must always allocate wounds to pinks first) and succesfully killing any heroes near them will remove the whole -1 as well (not to mention bshock immunity through commands).

Its because the current rules for DD state that the chosen result cannot be rerolled or modified, and battleshock modifiers are modifiers.

[angrycontra]

1 minute ago, AverageBoss said:

Its because the current rules for DD state that the chosen result cannot be rerolled or modified, and battleshock modifiers are modifiers.

Oh I see. Well no wonder I didn't see that interaction 'cause I would've thought that to be total bulldung. Well faq is 100% fix that or gw has truly lost its marbles.

[Dolomyte]

I would eliminate flamers from changehost, switch gaunt summoners to bring in blue horrors, pinks go up to 250, and make duplicitous cost a command point. For an initial tune I think that might still leave them top tier but it will knock em down enough to the point you feel like your at least in the game. 

[Zanzou]

Searched everywhere for the results and can't find anything... Where are these results published?

[AverageBoss]

I dont think Pinks are worth 250 or 350 at all. There are tougher units out there already for the same points cost. Nobody had a problem when they were 180. Now that they have been overall nerfed, and had a price increase, people are suddenly do? It much more the new special rules they have access to (rend cult, change host, duplicitous, easy plug and play 1 drop option) than them themselves.

GS is interesting. Because he paints such a large target on his head, that against alphas, or if you play him too conservatively to compensate, he is a colossal waste of points. People using him will also not be running a 1 drop. His biggest contribution to a game is his summon. He lacks other support abilities or buffs, and his native spell is decidedly meh (especially for how close it forces you to get). There are honestly many instances where you are better off just taking the Pink Horrors, and using the 40 extra points on an endless spell.

Edited January 27, 2020 by AverageBoss

[Freejack02]

Changehost is absurdly strong; these results shouldn't be surprising... when I read the new battalion rules my eyes popped out of my head. I hope GW doesn't go crazy with the nerfs, here's where I would start:

1. Require a confirmation roll for each unit before it can teleport (probably 3+ or 4+). 

2. 100% need change the current DD / Battleshock roll interaction; that is clearly overpowerd on Horrors and just overbuffs an already strong faction ability. 

3. Horrors are pretty damn efficient currently, either tweak the way/amount they split or increase the points slightly to 220. 

4. Possibly up the points of Changehost itself, maybe 220.

I honestly think that's all it would take to bring the Changehost down to earth, however I have yet to play the new iteration. I don't believe Flamers are too powerful (they are complete glass and not even overtuned on offfense), it's just the ability to teleport them around the table at-will completely makes up for their flaws. 

[Sinfullyvannila]

50 minutes ago, Freejack02 said:

2. 100% need change the current DD / Battleshock roll interaction; that is clearly overpowerd on Horrors and just overbuffs an already strong faction ability. 

I don’t mean to single you out specifically; but does everyone asking for this to be changed know that aside from this, Destiny Dice got a massive nerf; In addition they continue to be a transparently diminishing resource, and Tzeentch continues to generate command points very poorly? There are other factions out there where battleshock is much less of an issue than Tzeentch.

 

I believe people who don’t play Tzeentch vastly underestimate how quickly DD go. Turn 1; you spend 4; 2 on a cast, 2 on a charge. You’re already almost at half. If your opponent can hit 2 of your units each turn, you won’t have any left at the top of Turn 3. Maybe you can get 2 more from Glimpse the Future. Unlikely more than 1 from Secret Eater. In addition, Changehost uses at least 1 CP per turn for Beacon of Sorcery, so you may have 2 of those to spare throughout the game for Inspiring Presence. So unless that’s all you use them on, they won’t last half the game, and in fact, in the 5th turn there almost certainly be at least 1 unit of horrors wiped out from Battleshock.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Sinfullyvannila

[NJohansson]

I would rather see a lot of small changes than one to two panic reactions. Doubling the cost of horrors/flamers will simply make the book unplayable. Instead I would:

decrease the hit chance of flamers by -1 (which will also make exalted flamers more competitive/a must).

only allow teleportation (through changehost of min size units).

remove flamers/exalted flamers from the changehost.

Limit the fatemaster Reroll to melee only.

Remove the stupidity of unmodified dice from fate dice.

Start there and adjust later if necessary.

[Phasteon]

3 Skyfires = 200pts

3 shots with D3 dmg

3 Flamers = 120pts

10 shots with D3 dmg

Enough said. 

[NJohansson]

Just now, Phasteon said:

3 Skyfires = 200pts

3 shots with D3 dmg

3 Flamers = 120pts

10 shots with D3 dmg

Enough said. 

Skyfires have 16 inch move, 4 wounds, good melee potential and can do mortal wounds on a 6. Flamers were absolutely unplayable in the last book - so let’s not make them so again.

[Sinfullyvannila]

11 minutes ago, NJohansson said:

Skyfires have 16 inch move, 4 wounds, good melee potential and can do mortal wounds on a 6. Flamers were absolutely unplayable in the last book - so let’s not make them so again.

It’s also a bad assumption that 3d3 is adequate damage at 200 points. Even with that you need to get Skyfires into melee at some point to get their points worth.

[The World Tree]

2 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

It’s also a bad assumption that 3d3 is adequate damage at 200 points. Even with that you need to get Skyfires into melee at some point to get their points worth.

They are good in combat, so that isn't a problem. With the rerolls they put out solid damage.

 

[Sedraxis]

1 minute ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

It’s also a bad assumption that 3d3 is adequate damage at 200 points. Even with that you need to get Skyfires into melee at some point to get their points worth.

That's because Skyfires aren't designed to get their points worth, they're all about threatening the whole board and forcing opponents to protect their important pieces/objectives. 

[Phasteon]

Just now, Sedraxis said:

That's because Skyfires aren't designed to get their points worth, they're all about threatening the whole board and forcing opponents to protect their important pieces/objectives. 

And whats the difference between Flamers that can teleport, cost less points and deal 3 times the damage? 

[Sedraxis]

6 minutes ago, Phasteon said:

And whats the difference between Flamers that can teleport, cost less points and deal 3 times the damage? 

Exactly why flamers are such a problem at current cost/output.

If shooting units that also move fast, fly and have good threat range can win their points back (aka current flamers in 1 shooting phase), why would anyone ever play anything else?

Mortal/Tzaangor Tzeentch has great design in the new book and can compete very well. Meanwhile the daemon part of the same tome invalidates it by doing everything better for less points in a 1-drop battalion.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Sedraxis

[Phasteon]

Lets face it: They should have gotten the KO treatment. 

Horrors are still too cheap for the amount of wounds they put on the table, I think 250-300 points for 50 wounds are more reasonable. 

Flamers have too many synergies. The basic warscroll is ok for 120p but then you get an extra rend, teleportation and potentially +1 to wound and multiple ways of +1 to hit and suddenly they look like a 260-300p shooting unit while still costing 120p for 3 models. They scale infinitely good which is a problem. 

[Freejack02]

1 hour ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

I believe people who don’t play Tzeentch vastly underestimate how quickly DD go.

I play Tzeentch. I don't think that using a single DD of any value was intended to completely stop all battleshock tests - if it was then it's just another case of playtesting/ruleswriting failing miserably. Yes they are being spent faster than before, but you don't HAVE to use them on every early casting or charge roll - that's the cost of guaranteeing success... it's a finite resource. Not to mention with something casting Glimpse every turn you get another one regardless of what is rolled, where before it was only a 1 or 6.

In short, if they go quick it's because you're using them to guarantee casts/charges/etc in a game built on chance - that's a price I will gladly pay in the early turns.

[Sinfullyvannila]

43 minutes ago, Freejack02 said:

I play Tzeentch. I don't think that using a single DD of any value was intended to completely stop all battleshock tests - if it was then it's just another case of playtesting/ruleswriting failing miserably. Yes they are being spent faster than before, but you don't HAVE to use them on every early casting or charge roll - that's the cost of guaranteeing success... it's a finite resource. Not to mention with something casting Glimpse every turn you get another one regardless of what is rolled, where before it was only a 1 or 6.

In short, if they go quick it's because you're using them to guarantee casts/charges/etc in a game built on chance - that's a price I will gladly pay in the early turns.

Since Battleshock rolls were always at least the second most common use of them(Cast, Battleshock, Unbind and Charge), and since the most common use of Battleshock rolls was to completely eliminate battleshock losses through the Pink Horrors’ Icon; I think if what you said were the case it would not be an exaggeration to say it’s probably the single most egregious oversight in the game’s history. I’m 70/100 confident that it is working as intended and is in fact the primary intention of the rule.

My math wasn’t using it on every cast or charge, it was on using it on only using 2 2d6 rolls the entire game, and your opponent playing competently enough to burn you out of the rest of them.

They won’t last you half the game on a good opponent unless you use them exclusively on Battleshock rolls.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Sinfullyvannila

[AaronWilson]

There is obviously a factor of new book syndrome (Though changehost isn't new) but it's very clearly above the curve. Almost a guaranteed first turn, being able to tag the majority of a opponents army with no retreat, a lot of powerful shooting, total board control. It just have too many things.

[RuneBrush]

9 hours ago, chosen_of_khaine said:

Not only that, but there were only 2 OBR in top 20 of CanCon (2nd and 12th place) and only one OBR currently in Top 8 of LVO, despite being by far the most popular army at both events.

Being cynical I wonder how much of this was down to lots of people thinking bonereapers were a really powerful army and bringing a list along without having practised enough with it?

[CJPT]

Aside from fixing the battleshock immunity with Destiny Dice, I'd suggest the following:

• All units in a Changehost battalion must be fielded at minimum strength. 

I think this is probably the most straightforward change that addresses the biggest issues - mass Flamer shooting, Hosts Duplicitous tarpits, etc, without needing changes to those parts of the book. Want a block of 20 Horrors or Flamers? That's an extra drop, and you can't teleport it.

[Death1942]

1 hour ago, RuneBrush said:

Being cynical I wonder how much of this was down to lots of people thinking bonereapers were a really powerful army and bringing a list along without having practised enough with it?

I was at Cancon and faced one OBR list and knew a few other OBR players.  I would say a good 50% of the people playing OBR had little to no experience with the army and were fairly average players to begin with.  These were the guys who ended up doing poorly and dragging the faction down.  The top tier lists were using Nagash correctly and dominating most games, they were countered by Tzeentch and outplayed by some of the better players floating around but it seemed like they were all hitting at least 4-2 if they knew what they were doing.

I personally think that OBR is a very negative experience for the opposing player, both times I have faced them I had the least fun I have ever had playing a tabletop game.  Haven't faced Tzeentch yet so can't comment on them.

[Kasper]

It is kinda hard to pinpoint exactly what should happen in a FAQ/errata. Changehost batallion is just nuts. There is no real tax to getting the batallion and it makes your entire army a 1 drop. Being able to freely redeploy 2 units from your entire army (since everything is included in the batallion) 9" away from the enemy anywhere on the board, is really strong. Tzeentch has to do zero effort into getting the redeployments off and there is no counter play to it. This ontop of Destiny Dice ensuring a tarpit of Horrors that make you unable to retreat causes further frustrations. 

In the majority of matchups you have to react to your opponent. Tzeentch just seems to do their thing as they please and you have no say in it since there are no counters to it.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Kasper

[Storm]

2 hours ago, Phasteon said:

Lets face it: They should have gotten the KO treatment. 

No-one deserves that 😥