Aos 2 - Lumineth Realm-Lords Discussion

[Icarion]

6 minutes ago, LuminethMage said:

I mostly agree with you. I went down from 100% confidence of Tyrion being in this army, to not being confident at all. Mainly because I also think it just would be too massive. One of the few reasons why I still think Tyrion could maaaaaby come is because they made it clear in many articles that he is as central to the Lumineth as Teclis, especially concerning their military (which is what we mostly see in the game). 

I get it, I do, and I could very much be wrong. They have mentioned Tyrion a bunch, which gives credit to all of your points. However, you say that Tryion appears central to to the Lumineth but i just don't get that impression from the lore we have been provided.   Let me try to show you an example of what I mean by saying that Tyrion appears passively in the lore of the lumineth vs Teclis being active. 

Here is a quote From Lumineth Lowdown 3 that i feel is a great example of pretty much every mention  of Tyrion we have gotten in regards to this army thus far:

Quote

First and foremost, the Lumineth are an incredibly sophisticated and martial race of aelves. Yet much of what they know was taught to them by Teclis, who was once a Prince of Ulthuan in the world-that-was, alongside his twin brother, Tyrion. The High Elves of that long-lost time rode the finest horses in all the world, and a kernel of this glorious past yet lingered in the ancestral memory of the Lumineth. The Vanari Dawnriders represent a Hyshian reflection of that legacy, inspired by the teachings of Teclis, who knew first-hand the quality of the horse-riding cavalry and sought to encourage its replication among the Lumineth.

They start out by framing the Lumineth aelves as being primarily shaped by Teclis, they then go on to name drop Tyrion and his significance in relation to Teclis. Finally, they mention that the Vanari Dawnriders were inspired by Teclis and his memories of the world that was. And this is what I mean by passive. At this point in the lore drips, they have already occasionally mentioned Tyrion as the militaristic counter point to Teclis, yet when it comes to the genesis of a basic aelven cavalry unit, they shift it to Teclis as the instigator. They had already mentioned Tyrion earlier in the paragraph so it would have been easy as pie to attribute the Dawnriders creation to Tyrion's memories of the world that was, yet they didn't. 

Even when later in the article they mention that Tyrion is the god responsible for militaristic inspiration, and so rightly the patron deity of a cavalry unit, the creation of them is still attributed to Teclis in his desire to rebuild what what was.

Everything in the lore thus far is framed in the motivations of Teclis.

Teclis creates, Tyrion influences. Active vs. passive. 

[LuminethMage]

Yup, I get what you mean. And of course I selected the quotes in a way to make my point. 

I just think they wrote too often about Lumineth being made up of two halves which compliment each other to not raise expectations. Even with the Danwriders - in the name it's clearly that this is sun (Tyrion) associated. Same with their flag. Tyrion is also mentioned as the leader of cavalry in the Slaanesh BT. 

So even without selective reading I think they very much raised expectations that Tyrion is part of this release. Now, I agree with you, it looks more like he'll come later. Especially, if we don't see any hint about him in the next reveal on Saturday. I feel that would be the last chance to make a pivot to the other half of the Lumineth. First reveal finished Teclis' part, second one will be about Tyrion. 

@Sleepers I don't think it's Lumineth, but it very well could be. For me that looks more like 40k or Dark Elvish, but it's possible that it's part of the Lumineth. 

@Damosane Could be! Would certainly make for a great expansion! But it would be bad for the initial release with many people being disappointed if there are no flying monsters/units with the Lumineth. You can already see that everywhere. Flying monsters were a defining feature of the HE, and GW mentioned winged creatures a lot in conjunction with Hysh. They also haven't released many armies lately without flying units. I personally still doubt it, but it's certainly possible. It's kind of a risky strategy though. I'm sure they know if they advertise a faction as reminiscent of the Pointy Aelves that a lot of people expect flying monsters (if they want to appeal to the TW crowd then even more so). Another reason why I feel hesitant about it, is that there are still many more factions to explore in the Mortal Realms, and several who really could need updates before they visit the Lumineth again. We'll know soon. Right now so many things could happen with this faction. 

[Icarion]

So fun fact, I just went back and watched Phil Kelly's interview from this past weekend about the Lumineth, and while talking about how the lore has been in the works for a while, he said this:

Quote

but then the sculptors developed this range of Lumineth that really surpassed our expectations, and not only did they come up with the basic lumineth, the mages and the soldiers that I have been talking about already, but also these Elementary temples... of which there are 4, so the mountain, the wind the river and Zenith....

Am I crazy or does that sound like the sculptors have already designed the 4 temples.

Of course these are just off the cuff remarks during his interview, but it sure sounds like the full range has been designed already, so I think it very likely that we will at least get more than simply the mountain temple initially. 

Of course temper expectations folks, they could certainly stretch the releases out over a lengthy period of time, but if the miniatures are already designed, it seems unlikely that they would only have one temple available at first.

[CommissarRotke]

7 hours ago, NorthernNurgling said:

I agree but I'm not sure why do we all keep talking about an initial release? I can't think of a single AoS army that got released in waves apart from Stormcast. And if that was the model for updating an army, why have we not seen 2nd wave release for Idoneth, or DoK or Fyreslayers etc? I worry that GW has accidentally over-promised with all their teasers and drip-feeding and that a lot of players (including myself) will just feel deflated if that picture is indeed the entire roster in the battletome. 

others probably have reasons beyond this, but IMO at this point we may see a staggered release because of how F'd up global supply chains are going to be. GW is completely closed as well which they then have to decide to either delay an entire release, or stagger it

[LuminethMage]

38 minutes ago, Athrawes said:

So fun fact, I just went back and watched Phil Kelly's interview from this past weekend about the Lumineth, and while talking about how the lore has been in the works for a while, he said this:

Am I crazy or does that sound like the sculptors have already designed the 4 temples.

Of course these are just off the cuff remarks during his interview, but it sure sounds like the full range has been designed already, so I think it very likely that we will at least get more than simply the mountain temple initially. 

Of course temper expectations folks, they could certainly stretch the releases out over a lengthy period of time, but if the miniatures are already designed, it seems unlikely that they would only have one temple available at first.

Yes, I heard it like that too the first time I re-listened closely to it, super excited at first. It would really fit with the "just scratched the surface" (which he mentions at the end), and also with some of the rumors saying this will be a big faction. It's kind of what we all thought at first. And combine it with how they wrote the article on Warhammer Community: "The Lumineth Realm-lords are already shaping up to be an incredible army, but so far we’ve only dipped our toe into the new range of models. Let’s shine a light on a bit more…"

But then, I've now listened to the whole thing like 10 times. It's still confusing. He mentions the 4 temples at first, but then says something like they are all on top of mountains (which still just could make sense (Wind, spring of a river, zenith could all be on top of mountains), but then every detail he mentions is just about mountains. Now it could be they are just so spot on target and never slip up even slightly, but sadly they've never given us even a tiny bit of information about River, Wind or Zenith besides them existing. All the art is about mountains, etc. 

That's exactly why I'm so torn. They've raised expectations a lot. But never gave any concrete examples of anything else coming. It's also a reason why many of us think the Phoenix Temple will be part of this faction. So anything could happen. Let's see what we get next Saturday. If they show us even a hint of a unit from any other elemental temple, we could be in for something really big.

Edited March 31, 2020 by LuminethMage
added quote

[Ian Wallsh]

Just out of curiosity, as I'm quite new to AoS and know very little about 'Adepticon'..... 

When it 'has' been on, how big have GW's reveals been, historically speaking......? 

I'm just trying to get a gauge on how likely it is that Games Workshop could have something 'huge' still to reveal next Saturday ..... Or not....? 

 

[Sleepers]

Something else I noticed, and it could just be my eyes playing tricks on me, but in the artwork revealing the stone mage, you have the Alarith mountain guys horns at the bottom, and on the right hand side, you have a giant veiled figure with the same stance as the Alarith mountain guys.. so could be the river / wind version of them? The picture was posted by another user on this thread.

[Damosane]

57 minutes ago, Ian Wallsh said:

Just out of curiosity, as I'm quite new to AoS and know very little about 'Adepticon'..... 

When it 'has' been on, how big have GW's reveals been, historically speaking......? 

I'm just trying to get a gauge on how likely it is that Games Workshop could have something 'huge' still to reveal next Saturday ..... Or not....? 

 

I would say there is quite a bit more to go, there is likely also the sons of bahumet for aos and they barely touched on 40k this week, I wouldn't be surprised to see a primarch return or some sort of big primaris wave tbh.

[Nactigal]

Tyrion may not be a behemoth sized model. There are several references to Tyrion and horses. He could be a medium sized dual kit riding a horse like the Liege Kavalos kit.

[Damosane]

5 minutes ago, Nactigal said:

Tyrion may not be a behemoth sized model. There are several references to Tyrion and horses. He could be a medium sized dual kit riding a horse like the Liege Kavalos kit.

i think I would genuinely prefer that to be honest, just give him a badass fiery version of malhandir 

[LuminethMage]

A fiery version of Malhandir would be great. So far the most plausible "mount" would be the Sun Spirit (I don't see why a faction with Twin Gods couldn't have more than two big pieces anyway), which seems to some kind of phoenix. 

Not really connected, but hinting at another maybe relatively large piece is this here: After looking at the Rumour Engine and the Montain Spirit really closely, I think we still haven't seen this one here. It's similar, but doesn't overlap 100% as far as  I can tell. I could be the bonsai in the back, but I think that one misses the stuff you can see at top, the mountain part seems to be different. and it likely doesn't have the ledge thing on the bottom. Or am I wrong? 

[Thiagoma]

I was thinking about it:

How many units are "mountain specific"?

The Big Cow dual kit

Wizard on the rock

Hammer guys.

 

The other units are "generic" and will be the Lumineth core. Considering only 3 of those kits are Montain and maybe the hammer unit will be a dual kit, it wouldnt take much to at least have 2 elements on this release.

Curious about saturday.

[Sleepers]

19 minutes ago, LuminethMage said:

A fiery version of Malhandir would be great. So far the most plausible "mount" would be the Sun Spirit (I don't see why a faction with Twin Gods couldn't have more than two big pieces anyway), which seems to some kind of phoenix. 

Not really connected, but hinting at another maybe relatively large piece is this here: After looking at the Rumour Engine and the Montain Spirit really closely, I think we still haven't seen this one here. It's similar, but doesn't overlap 100% as far as  I can tell. I could be the bonsai in the back, but I think that one misses the stuff you can see at top, the mountain part seems to be different. and it likely doesn't have the ledge thing on the bottom. Or am I wrong? 

I think you’re on to something here!

It definitely does not match up with anything we’ve been shown yet.

My only concern with that being the case is that it implies more mountain models, which means less chance of the other sub-factions being included.

Edited March 31, 2020 by Sleepers

[Beliman]

49 minutes ago, LuminethMage said:

A fiery version of Malhandir would be great. So far the most plausible "mount" would be the Sun Spirit (I don't see why a faction with Twin Gods couldn't have more than two big pieces anyway), which seems to some kind of phoenix. 

Not really connected, but hinting at another maybe relatively large piece is this here: After looking at the Rumour Engine and the Montain Spirit really closely, I think we still haven't seen this one here. It's similar, but doesn't overlap 100% as far as  I can tell. I could be the bonsai in the back, but I think that one misses the stuff you can see at top, the mountain part seems to be different. and it likely doesn't have the ledge thing on the bottom. Or am I wrong? 

I think it's the little tree behind his left horn (the top one). The photo was taken from behind I believe. 
 

[LuminethMage]

That would be the only one possible, yup. I still think it looks different though (the good stuff, the thing on the bottom, and the curve of the mountain don't seem to align). But it's possible. 

And @Sleepers yeah, that would be the case. Although could potentially be air/zenith too. Let's see. Getting excited about Saturday again (damnit:  ) ). 

[Gorsameth]

I would expect GW wants to go the Stormcast route and have a faction for which they can release 'new' armies for a while to come like they did with the different Stormcast Chambers.

So this initial release is all mountain and then the other 3 get separate releases some time in the future.

This way they are more likely to sell you 4 armies, rather then releasing  all together or in pairs and only sell you  1/2.

[NorthernNurgling]

I'm excited yet apprehensive - I think if Saturday reveals some Endless Spells and Veil Lady there's going to be a backlash from people who've been teased since January. I don't mind GW wanting to stagger the release or set up a "chambers" style system for Lumineth, but if so they will have over-promised too much in the teasers and it will detract from what is actually a cool new faction.

[ArchaicArc]

So here are the unsolved rumor engines which MAY have even a SLIGHTLY elven connection.... just spitballing.

[Mr2spyderguy]

I have taken a few days to really mull over things, and Honestly I have to say I am going to wait till malerion. I have already started going back to build my Eldar 40k Army. I loved the first reveal, the spearmen looked great and the dawn riders looked awesome, silly plumes could be excused. I really felt that they were super evocative of the old high elves, and I was really pleased that maybe now I could start playing a "high elf" styled army. the next reveal of models had me less enthused due to the goofy helms but was willing to do some head swaps and deal with the mage if I couldnt get him swapped with my minor conversion skills. however the adepticon reveals.... I think I am out. I dont feel like these models feel very "pointy Elf" at all, the huge center pieces  (I could deal with Teclis, he was growing on me) I dont care for, they look too beastmen or beastagor. I was excited for phoenix, Dragon style models, not bulls all over the place and being more reminiscent of beastmen. maybe there is a lot more to this Army and they will release all the elemental forces, maybe the zenith will have a dragon or phoenix style, or the wind models will have more of an eagle style. something more true to roots on the elves of old. Nothing new really screams elf to me, and honestly doesnt really pique my interest even if it was the "mountain men" army or something that games workshop chose to tie to the high elves.

 

I do think the models are pretty, and dont hold it against those who like the models, I just cant see myself playing with them. Maybe when Malerion comes around that will get me excited again to play AoS. I dont believe that Tyrion will be in this release anymore with what they have revealed, so maybe his "angelic Elves" will be better suited to my modeling tastes. I am excited for all those who really like the models and are excited, I am just no longer excited for this release at all, I am hopeful that this will be a huge release and they will be releasing more elemental groups and those will appeal to me, but I am not holding my breath for that.

[Damosane]

5 hours ago, ArchaicArc said:

So here are the unsolved rumor engines which MAY have even a SLIGHTLY elven connection.... just spitballing.

I really hope this ....knuckle duster tuning fork sword thing is not lumineth as that looks absolutely terrible and not even slightly functional

Edit: Just realised that could be some sort of super insane monster killing bow I guess :') 

Edited March 31, 2020 by Damosane

[Mcthew]

As someone who was hoping to build an Aelf army, I'm with the 'disappointed' group. To the extent I've now gone for an aelf-themed CoS army over the Lumineth, with Wanderers and Phoenix Guard.

I have the same issue with the Bonereapers. GW tried so hard to be different (to keep us buying) but remain within the spirit of Tomb Kings, they created something that looked odd to me, even cartoonish.

The Lumineth are trying so hard not to be high elves that they are now high elf-cows. As with the Bonereapers, it seems GW are driven to make profit on the product at the expense of the range. With both Tomb Kings and High Elves, the originals were great, even classic and proven. Yet the GW philosophy focuses on making that range incompatible with the new range, no matter if the aesthetic is compromised in a way the Idoneth and Kharadron werent.

I reckon the new rules for the Lumineth will carry the range and I expect an obligatory over-powered sub-faction ala Petrifex Elite to sell models, but that isnt a good way of creating and selling a new range of product. And anyone who has played against some PetElite armies, will know its frustratingly dull too.

Hopefully in the future, there will be less misjudged new ranges to come. GW are still the best at making minis, and their not-so-good ranges are still better than the rest.

But GW wont persuade me to buy elf-cows or scary clown-skeletons, when GW already have better minis out there deserving more attention 😄

[Kayzee84]

I'd just re-state how gorgeous these riders are, and that I'm excited to see what remains in the line.

Here's a bit of wish-listing:

Tyrion on/with Sunsprit dragon-phoenix (sun spririt)

Re-imagined (or just included) Phoenix temple - guard and mounted pheonixs (zenith)

warmachine hurling tornados, because why not (wind)

Lightly armored but fast glass cannon light infantry (river)

 

 

[Toptramp]

People should stop Hoping for what they would like, it’s clear GW going for something slightly different - for me it’s not great but that’s ok.
 

GW has a good range of models that are decent and no doubt we all have a big plastic back log!

i think we have seen the majority of the launch now

I feel we get the usual cycle on rules like with chambers, but this has been marketed wrong especially with the ridiculous cow wraith knight and teclis model - alongside the poor trickle of info.  Generally people are collecting elves for the elves not a creature with some guy jumping off the back of it and a cow.

it could have been simple - basic range they ve shown us, archers, horses, mono pose spears - Eltharion, lord of the wraiths aka wraith guard 40k +Titan Not a cow version ( imagine a larger eltharion), aspect warriors swords, magic, range, flying.   Teclis single model without derp face Leaping off the side of the base ,aka nagash, Tyrion on flying warped malhandir, aka Archaon.

complete launch range loadout =
 

3 x basic Troops 

4 x aspect lords

4 x aspect kits 

tyrion

teclis

1 x wraith knight

1 x wraith unit

3 x generic heroes

 17 kits - 3 battle line, 3 large models, 4 aspect lords, 5 specialist troops and 3 generic heroes.

That’s a big release that will get people to buy into the big charcs, If they were better models than this teclis, and then build excitement to purchase further chambers/aspects being developed.

maybe even forego the wraiths and reduce the launch to 14 kits

This allows us to specialise  - each aspect gets developed with 2 kits plus large model /  hero - then you could have wraiths, if held back at release, also making 5 more ‘chambers’ to release 

GW could have everyone on the hook with the army, while allowing us to play elves how we like excited for further development on that play style with a better result for us and for them financially

Right now Imagine painting/practicing painting on your general elf troops to build up to painting that teclis/creature model or a cow?  when really you wanted to play elves with magic, swords or flying or arrows?  Not hammers and cows throwing them into melee orc style!

GW - thanks for saving me money!

[herohammer]

Am I alone in thinking the cow spirits are the best lumineth models? I honestly was not interested in the release at all until they were revealed. The hammerers are pretty cool too. The basic troops just seem like nothing new to me and not very distinct from high elves from old WHFB. I am personally very glad this faction is not just shaping up to be a rerelease of high elves.

[Sleepers]

Other than the bull helmets on the Stoneguard, I’m extremely happy with everything that’s been shown. I’m 100% on board and can’t wait for Saturday reveal.