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Aos 2 - Lumineth Realm-Lords Discussion


HollowHills
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I've been considering LRL as my second army after Nighthaunt, and after looking at the "theories" am wondering how viable a cavalry army with a core of Roos and Dawnriders would be. It would be a lot of fun, and with the right support pieces I feel like it could also be decent. 

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More in depth analysis.

Sub factions:

Helon: Good movement shenanigans, good hurakans being battleline, but i can't see a full hurakan list, and in a mix, will be better going zaitrec in a vanari mix or ymetrica in a alarith mix.

B

Alumnia: Can't say much until i know how the artifact works.

-

Wind Lore:

Good stuff there. Short range, so is bad for teclis but the windmage have tons of mobility, so is great. With the mage i will chose between the deny of CAs, the +1hit or +6" or the antihorde spells. With teclis the healing and the teleport will be great.

A

Heroes.

Lyrior and Regent. Good support hero, but with so low survibality. Eltharion is dead in most t1, so this dude will be the same with 1 wound less. Good to buff your vanari focused lists and good to go with dawnriders on the charge.

B

Loreseeker. Amazing, put that in your lists. Just amazing, nothing more to say.

S

Calligrave. His ability is pretty useful in full vanari list, plus you need him to put into the Ballista batallion. The spell is weird (need to see full warscroll) but reliable.

B+

Bannerblade. Maybe a way to encourage playing without Cathallar? Good in vanari lists that are not Illiatha (wich is where i can see him) but a little bit weak. Need to see artifacts

C

Twins. A complete mess, need to see full warscroll but i can't see the niche in LRL, they will be better on Cities

D

Sevireth. For 300 points? Really good. Average almost 5 damage with just the bow, infinite movement shenanigans, destroying sceneri on a 2 (what were they thinking?). If the opponen locks every stuff on him, he will be dead t1, and that's what will happen all the time.

A+

(Generic fox, the same with less survibality A)

Windmage. Cheap and necessary if playing with hurakans. Boring warscroll spell but anti shooting abilities wich is good.

B+

 

Units.

Blademasters. They are made for just 1 thing, being bodyguards, and they are AMAZING for that. Put 5 in the list just to cover Cathallar and that''s all.

A+

Windrunners. They hit less than the rest of shooting units but you are going to enjoy their movement. Good warscroll, pretty balanced i guess, and more independient than Stoneguards, that need more support behind them.

B+

Ballista. I can't understand how is this priced. 100 points is absurdly low. Illiatha lists? Check. Zaitrec lists? Check. Everything that is not a mix of temples can fit, at least, one of this. 

A+

 

Battalions

Blademaster Battalion. Only to low drops

C

Ballista Battalion. Expensive (520 pt the less) but good.

A

Hurakan Battalion. One of the best battalions in the game, that's why is so sooooooooooooo expensive. 

B+

Edited by Ragest
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1 hour ago, dmorley21 said:

I've been considering LRL as my second army after Nighthaunt, and after looking at the "theories" am wondering how viable a cavalry army with a core of Roos and Dawnriders would be. It would be a lot of fun, and with the right support pieces I feel like it could also be decent. 

Probably wait until everything is confirmed : ). It should be pretty good though, if you build something around it. 

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If someone could PM me any of the ‚Äúlatest theories‚ÄĚ that would be very appreciated! Thank you :)

As an aside I‚Äôm nervous to pick up too many hurrakan riders. Painting the dawn riders almost ended my hobby ūüėÖ

Edited by Stoickes
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Some scrolls are pretty bad but some amazing stuff in there. 

Both great nations are good as they give something different. 

Alumnia could be crazy good with pre-game move and Hurakan has some great abilities. 

Heroes 

Loreseeker - best scroll in whole BR:Teclis update. 

Sevireth - pretty good - as with all those abilities could be kept out of danger his dmg is reliable, MWs are reliable, -2'' pilne in is amazing along with Hurakan ability. Amazing scroll that can be used in many lists. 

WindSpirit - much worse then Sev, as he will be easier to kill if you have points - Sev is much better choice. 

Windmage - very good, if you run Hurakan units he is great, if you run Sev he is great and on his own he is great as he has access to amazing magic lore, so if you don't run Teclis you want him for teleport spell. 

Twins - playable, 8 wounds 3+, but could be shielded with Bladelords, heal themselves, generates CPs 2cast, big upside. 260 is rough but they might work

Regent - quite good but won't see much play, named one is even worse. 

Calligrave - meh

Standar bearer - meh. 

Units 

Windchargers - good, balanced, could be used in any list or you can build a list around them (it could work) 

Bladelords - great as Bodyguards - Cathallar, Twins, Loreseeker, even 5 are good 

Starshards - 3A with 5-6W for 100 with max dmg of 9 ? Nah, you would be better with Sentinels - they are more reliable, more wounds, more mobility, doesn't need stuff like heroes in range etc. 

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OOOF. 

That General "lumineth Realm-Lords Discussion" Thread is getting exhausting.

I know it might seem best to not engage, and let it blow over. But I can't. If you let people start making the claim that something is broken, or should be banned from tournaments, without stepping up and  pushing back against it, you end up giving anyone else license to use that argument as an excuse, and all of a suddon the guy you were going to have a pickup game with refuses to play you because he read that your army is "basically cheating" on the internet.

I did my bit. I see @LuminethMage did his.

Anyone else want to step up and carry the load for a while?

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4 minutes ago, Athrawes said:

OOOF. 

That General "lumineth Realm-Lords Discussion" Thread is getting exhausting.

I know it might seem best to not engage, and let it blow over. But I can't. If you let people start making the claim that something is broken, or should be banned from tournaments, without stepping up and  pushing back against it, you end up giving anyone else license to use that argument as an excuse, and all of a suddon the guy you were going to have a pickup game with refuses to play you because he read that your army is "basically cheating" on the internet.

I did my bit. I see @LuminethMage did his.

Anyone else want to step up and carry the load for a while?

I'm afraid if I go there and post what I want to post I will be very offending and end getting banned from the forum...

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Honestly, from my experience, trying to convince people on the internet of something they don’t want to be convinced of is a fruitless endeavour, which just makes you angry as it goes round in circles. Let them believe whatever they want to believe, they will anyway. Not really worth your time and effort. It’s much healthier to just chill with those who are more positive about the things you like, rather than try to argue with others.

In regards to pickup games, if they’re going to refuse playing you because they read somewhere on the internet that your army is OP, they probably aren’t worth playing with anyway. 

Edited by Tiberius501
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4 minutes ago, Tiberius501 said:

Honestly, from my experience, trying to convince people on the internet of something they don’t want to be convinced of is a fruitless endeavour, which just makes you angry as it goes round in circles. Let them believe whatever they want to believe, they will anyway. Not really worth your time and effort. It’s much healthier to just chill with those who are more positive about the things you like, rather than try to argue with others.

In regards to pickup games, if they’re going to refuse playing you because they read somewhere on the internet that your army is OP, they probably aren’t worth playing with anyway. 

Agreed. You can't reason with some people.. And yes if a dude doesn't want to play with us on the principle the army is broken without even having tried to actually play and aquire at least an informed opinion  they aren't worth our time...

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Really the most amazing thing to me about all the Lumineth griping is that it feels like every single person in that thread starts off with some variation of "Well of course I've played vs Lumineth 50 times and won 49 games but they are super broken and unfun and need to be nerfed to the ground immediately".  How do people seriously have so little self-awareness? Did you think the Lumineth players had a great time losing that often?

I'm not really surprised though, whining about elves on the internet and even more so in Warhammer is a time-honored tradition, a ritual so ingrained that most of them don't even understand why they're doing it except to fit in.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Athrawes said:

I did my bit. I see @LuminethMage did his.

Anyone else want to step up and carry the load for a while?

I posted something in there a while ago. To paraphrase @Tiberius501, you can't change people's minds, no matter how hard you try. Rather, it's important to foster honest debate rather than mud-slinging. 

The former may not change anything, but the latter only turns people against you and prevents them from even attempting to listen to your point of view.

I think there's valid concerns that one of the themes of our army is that we break the rules and then make our opponent pay for it.  There's a number of our rules that I just don't use because I want my opponent to have a good time. I don't use Teclis for the same reason. 

Unfortunately, people are letting frustration and bias turn a reasonable complaint into an excuse to whine, hate, and demand that the army is nerfed. Nerfing isn't the solution. Rewriting things so that we maintain our cool theme and abilities, but they don't zone our opponent out of parts of the game is. 

End if the day, this problem is bigger than us, and it isn't our job to fix it. I'm not fighting with people over whether or not my plastic toys are bad because somebody else made choices I might not have when designing their rules. I always have, and always will, have the power to play the game in a way that is fun for me and my friends.

This is why I don't go to shops or tournaments to play.

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I hear you guy, I do. 

But for me, principally,  Warhammer is a social hobby, and one of my favorite things is making new hobby friends through pickup games.

And having an assumed army bias being accepted as conventional wisdom, presents a hurdle to that happening. It's by no means insurmountable, but I'd rather try and nip it in the bud if that is even possible.

And I also hear the argument that "people who don't want to play you, are probably people you don't want to play in the first place." While generally that might be true, It's hard to for me to blame someone who doesn't want to play lumineth if all they hear before the game is that the army is broken. That doesn't mean he is a bad person, or wouldn't make fun games,  and I want to try and push back (as futile as it might be,) from letting that type of myth from becoming dominant in communities.

To each their own I suppose. 

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It's more internet trolling that actual thing - poeple complain in internet over everything. 

I've never experienced that people refuse to play - just not bring filth playing casual games. I am highly competitive player but I won't bring A-Tier tournament list to game with new player etc.  

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2 minutes ago, Athrawes said:

I hear you guy, I do. 

But for me, principally,  Warhammer is a social hobby, and one of my favorite things is making new hobby friends through pickup games.

And having an assumed army bias being accepted as conventional wisdom, presents a hurdle to that happening. It's by no means insurmountable, but I'd rather try and nip it in the bud if that is even possible.

And I also hear the argument that "people who don't want to play you, are probably people you don't want to play in the first place." While generally that might be true, It's hard to for me to blame someone who doesn't want to play lumineth if all they hear before the game is that the army is broken. That doesn't mean he is a bad person, or wouldn't make fun games,  and I want to try and push back (as futile as it might be,) from letting that type of myth from becoming dominant in communities.

To each their own I suppose. 

You're not wrong, but you just can't put out a burning house with a water sprinkler, it's impossible.  People believe the first thing they hear and never change their mind afterwords.

I don't even know how many times I've seen someone assert that the big tournament list that is wrecking everything with LRL is 80 sentinels, even though to my knowledge that was run one time in a small tournament that happened to be mentioned on youtube when LRL were brand new and I can't find any actual recent tournament list that uses more than 20-30 archers, if that.

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22 minutes ago, Athrawes said:

I hear you guy, I do. 

But for me, principally,  Warhammer is a social hobby, and one of my favorite things is making new hobby friends through pickup games.

And having an assumed army bias being accepted as conventional wisdom, presents a hurdle to that happening. It's by no means insurmountable, but I'd rather try and nip it in the bud if that is even possible.

And I also hear the argument that "people who don't want to play you, are probably people you don't want to play in the first place." While generally that might be true, It's hard to for me to blame someone who doesn't want to play lumineth if all they hear before the game is that the army is broken. That doesn't mean he is a bad person, or wouldn't make fun games,  and I want to try and push back (as futile as it might be,) from letting that type of myth from becoming dominant in communities.

To each their own I suppose. 

It reminds me a lot to when OBR dropped, iirc there was a thread called something like "OBR hideously overpowered" that was basically a wall of complaint against petrifex, a bit similar to the current "Lumineth victims thread" that is up now. I'm sure it will blow over, and if there is something in particular (as was with Petrifex) it might get nerfed. But reality is also that LRL isnt winning every tournament, far from so in fact and that will likely be picked up by the various content creators on youtube etc and they wont show up as the top "S-tier" army when ppl search google for "Best AOS faction" and things like that.

I find the whole NPE thing a bit silly, what if I just hate losing, then all bad matchups are NPE etc etc. In those cases its just about the sentiment of the player so well, you simply need to accept that all ppl arent great opponents in this game (its a game about outplaying your opponent after all)...

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As a positive side, note, it looks like the Lumineth leaks might be real.

Todays WarCom article about changes to nurgle warscrolls, and the rules for the Hysh City of Sigmar matches up perfectly with the rules that were leaked yesterday with the Lumineth stuff.

Edited by Athrawes
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1 hour ago, Athrawes said:

OOOF. 

That General "lumineth Realm-Lords Discussion" Thread is getting exhausting.

I know it might seem best to not engage, and let it blow over. But I can't. If you let people start making the claim that something is broken, or should be banned from tournaments, without stepping up and  pushing back against it, you end up giving anyone else license to use that argument as an excuse, and all of a suddon the guy you were going to have a pickup game with refuses to play you because he read that your army is "basically cheating" on the internet.

I did my bit. I see @LuminethMage did his.

Anyone else want to step up and carry the load for a while?

I‚Äôve spent the past month or two hyped up about this release¬†because of lockdown and¬†seeing the same few people be nothing but completely sour about it literally every day is just so irritating. I don‚Äôt even play competitively- I mainly stick to the hobby and lore aspect of AoS - but the constant ‚Äúwaaah, NPE! waaaaah, too overpowered! waaaah!‚ÄĚ is just tiring.¬†

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23 minutes ago, JustAsPlanned said:

I‚Äôve spent the past month or two hyped up about this release¬†because of lockdown and¬†seeing the same few people be nothing but completely sour about it literally every day is just so irritating. I don‚Äôt even play competitively- I mainly stick to the hobby and lore aspect of AoS - but the constant ‚Äúwaaah, NPE! waaaaah, too overpowered! waaaah!‚ÄĚ is just tiring.¬†

I'm a competitive player, I attend most of the tournaments in my community, I have never played Teclis or Syar in such tournaments I still have to suffer people telling me HOW BORING AND NPE AND GOOD AND OP Syar’s trait and Teclis are.

Man, is happening the same with Sce? People say that Hammers are boring because Anvils can make a onedrop and shooting? Do dok players are being pointed about how absurd khailebron was when playin hag narr? Khorne players being called about Archaon? 

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