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HollowHills

Aos 2 - Lumineth Realm-Lords Discussion

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I’m a high elf player since 5th Ed Wfb. But I think it would be very odd for GW to discontinue some of the HE most iconic unit kits and then just launch another army with pretty much the same units. I think it would be wise to temper expectations a bit. 
 

as much as I would love a really good, normal dragon kit, we’ll probably see more weird AoS creatures. The same goes for elite cavalry. I’m not saying it can’t happen, but personally I’m trying really hard not to get my hopes up to much and just enjoy the new elf army whatever it looks like. Instead of getting disappointed there are no new swordmasters etc. 

(having said that, I’m already collecting classic elf helmets and am looking into 3D printing high elf shields to give the Lumineth a more classic high elf look😛)

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On 2/14/2020 at 3:26 PM, Double Misfire said:

If you enjoyed the first two, the next part of my Great Canon series exploring Teclis' full tabletop and publication history is up, covering 6th edition and his first Black Library appearance in Giantslayer:

https://doublemisfire.blogspot.com/2020/02/great-canon-teclis-part-3-mage-trios.html

Feedback as always welcome. :) 

Edit: @PiotrW, I've just seen your post and realised that the first couple of articles in my series give a pretty solid basic overview of 1/3 of what you're asking for in Teclis, with more to come on his involvement in the End Times, and AoS appearances to date coming in future installments:

https://doublemisfire.blogspot.com/2020/01/great-canon-teclis-part-1-origins-1992.html?m=1

 

On 2/14/2020 at 4:24 PM, Thalassic Monstrosity said:

@PiotrW

With regards to Eltharion, the following wiki article describes his history well enough:

https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Eltharion

And this link describes both the above and goes into his death during the End Times.

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Eltharion

Hey guys, you've been very helpful. Between this and a Warhammer wiki on (former) Wikia, I got all the info I needed :)

Observation: is it me, or was the old WFB / WFRP a tad... better? I prefer AoS as a game, but I got the feeling that the Old World was a deeper, more focused and more coherent setting than the Mortal Realms. Mortal Realms is so... vast and yet, it doesn't engage my emotions the same way the stuff I read about the Old World does...

Anyway, a Lumineth-related question: how you are planning on painting these guys? Somehow, I got the feeling that color-shifting paints might be of use here...

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7 minutes ago, PiotrW said:

 

Hey guys, you've been very helpful. Between this and a Warhammer wiki on (former) Wikia, I got all the info I needed :)

Observation: is it me, or was the old WFB / WFRP a tad... better? I prefer AoS as a game, but I got the feeling that the Old World was a deeper, more focused and more coherent setting than the Mortal Realms. Mortal Realms is so... vast and yet, it doesn't engage my emotions the same way the stuff I read about the Old World does...

Anyway, a Lumineth-related question: how you are planning on painting these guys? Somehow, I got the feeling that color-shifting paints might be of use here...

You have to bear in mind that the Old World lore was built on for over thirty years, whereas AOS has only been going for five.  When I first started there was very little lore, but that meant I was able to follow he journey from the beginning.  You too can follow the journey of an ever-expanding AOS universe as it happens in the same way.  In another twenty years ( if not before, the rate they are going ) the AOS lore will be just as deep and intricate as the Old World ever was.   All I can say is enjoy the journey.

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Then old world is older then me! People will look back at AOS and think similar of it once it’s gone.

i will say that certain aspects of the old world I miss. It’s harder to do less epic stories in AOS. A gritty setting gives off an aura that adds flavour to each and every story. Old vampires vs new death armies are so alien despite being the same alliance. Even orks have become more fantastical, but I do think destruction has done the least amount of changing. 

However the writing and setting is superb, just the decription of slaanesh armies vanishing without a trace in ulgu has me hyped for malerions inevitable release. The short  stories in the flesh eaters court tome are amazing, and chaos has become so much more relatable to the point where specific chaos armies don’t even feel like badguys anymore, just victims of happenstance.

from a gaming perspective the game feels so much more balanced, and also feels like it has just as much depth as fantasy despite The vastly simplified ruleset. I miss the old magic phases and level 4 wizards risking death to pump out powerful spells the most (prolly why I originally gravitated toward tzeentch) but other then that the new game feels so much better.

i  do also miss the old magic item system, it felt like I could customize my hero to do whatever I want! And the old armour piercing system while complicated compared to rend was very logical in execution.

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1 hour ago, Aelfric said:

You have to bear in mind that the Old World lore was built on for over thirty years, whereas AOS has only been going for five.  When I first started there was very little lore, but that meant I was able to follow he journey from the beginning.  You too can follow the journey of an ever-expanding AOS universe as it happens in the same way.  In another twenty years ( if not before, the rate they are going ) the AOS lore will be just as deep and intricate as the Old World ever was.   All I can say is enjoy the journey.

This one speaks the truth. Asuryan speaks through him.

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1 hour ago, PiotrW said:

Observation: is it me, or was the old WFB / WFRP a tad... better? I prefer AoS as a game, but I got the feeling that the Old World was a deeper, more focused and more coherent setting than the Mortal Realms. Mortal Realms is so... vast and yet, it doesn't engage my emotions the same way the stuff I read about the Old World does...

Spoiler

Yes 🤫

 

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1 hour ago, TheadTheOgorSlayer said:

Then old world is older then me! People will look back at AOS and think similar of it once it’s gone.

i will say that certain aspects of the old world I miss. It’s harder to do less epic stories in AOS. A gritty setting gives off an aura that adds flavour to each and every story. Old vampires vs new death armies are so alien despite being the same alliance. Even orks have become more fantastical, but I do think destruction has done the least amount of changing. 

However the writing and setting is superb, just the decription of slaanesh armies vanishing without a trace in ulgu has me hyped for malerions inevitable release. The short  stories in the flesh eaters court tome are amazing, and chaos has become so much more relatable to the point where specific chaos armies don’t even feel like badguys anymore, just victims of happenstance.

from a gaming perspective the game feels so much more balanced, and also feels like it has just as much depth as fantasy despite The vastly simplified ruleset. I miss the old magic phases and level 4 wizards risking death to pump out powerful spells the most (prolly why I originally gravitated toward tzeentch) but other then that the new game feels so much better.

i  do also miss the old magic item system, it felt like I could customize my hero to do whatever I want! And the old armour piercing system while complicated compared to rend was very logical in execution.

I agree, while I have not played a game yet only read the rules and have an understanding of how the game works and flows. that to me seems like the biggest miss for the game. The hero customization, the wizards being able to take specific load outs on units which makes them cost more. that is the one thing that feel less deep to me, I understand in a lot of ways why they did it... I mean it's easier and much more simplified, but I think I will enjoy the older way of doing it better when I get my LRL and start playing.

That being said, nothing is stopping me or anyone else build systems like that or play with an old world style magic system where you pool up a number of dice based on your wizards plus a roll.. if that is how your private group of friends wants to play.

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13 hours ago, elfhead said:

I’m a high elf player since 5th Ed Wfb. But I think it would be very odd for GW to discontinue some of the HE most iconic unit kits and then just launch another army with pretty much the same units. I think it would be wise to temper expectations a bit. 
 

as much as I would love a really good, normal dragon kit, we’ll probably see more weird AoS creatures. The same goes for elite cavalry. I’m not saying it can’t happen, but personally I’m trying really hard not to get my hopes up to much and just enjoy the new elf army whatever it looks like. Instead of getting disappointed there are no new swordmasters etc. 

(having said that, I’m already collecting classic elf helmets and am looking into 3D printing high elf shields to give the Lumineth a more classic high elf look😛)

I guess most of us think like that. What I meant for example when I wrote that it's likely we see Swordmasters, White Lions and Dragon Knights, I meant that we'll see somewhat similar units . I doubt that the new "White Lions" will have White Lions coats, but I think there will be some kind of Great Axe wielding unit for the Lumineth with a similar feeling to them. Same for the Dragon Knights, if they come back, I don't think they'll ride on horses.

This is actually one of the things I look most forward to, their mounts and monsters. Will they go full Hysh Spirits a la Celennar, or do we get dragons? Or might there be some spirit like "Hysh Dragons" and how would those look like.   

 

3 hours ago, PiotrW said:

 

Hey guys, you've been very helpful. Between this and a Warhammer wiki on (former) Wikia, I got all the info I needed :)

Observation: is it me, or was the old WFB / WFRP a tad... better? I prefer AoS as a game, but I got the feeling that the Old World was a deeper, more focused and more coherent setting than the Mortal Realms. Mortal Realms is so... vast and yet, it doesn't engage my emotions the same way the stuff I read about the Old World does...

Anyway, a Lumineth-related question: how you are planning on painting these guys? Somehow, I got the feeling that color-shifting paints might be of use here...

The old setting had its strength, and was much more focused and relatable than AOS. You'd at least vaguely knew from history and other fantasy settings about most of the factions, and many characters were more human.  As mentioned by others it took them quite a while to flesh it out and make it really interesting though. And the Old World also had its flaws. It was hard to show change and progress in the Old World. Chaos/Dark Elves/Greenskins invade somewhere, destroy everything in their wake, but ultimately get beaten back, and the old balance is restored, albeit the "Order" factions are weaker than before. Rinse and repeat. for example, the High Elves were on the verge of extinction the whole time without  any real change or effect on anything. 

In the new setting they are much freer to change stuff and introduce new things. They are also much more in line with current culture (movies and video games) where everyone is a super hero with super powers. In old RPGs fighters would just fight, and get some magical stuff that made them do extraordinary things, now they have magic moves (super jumps and bashes and what not) which are similar to spells. Not everyone will like that, and I'm sure they'll also try to please the crowd who wants to have a more gritty, normal human perspective, but this new approach also lets them do some awesome stuff. Like all the fantastic environment they came up with for the Realms, Living Spells etc. which also have an effect on the  gameplay. 

And as much as I like my old High Elves, the down to earth citizen militia Spearmen for example. Compared to the Lumineth Phalanxes having spears with sunmetal tips that "flare into life with the solar energies they have absorbed, tearing through armour, flesh and bone", they could come off as somewhat boring. What a great idea and image.

I do think like you they have a problem with AOS so far, that  there aren't many relatable characters yet, the old ones have all become some loosely defined "gods", and the ones are still not really established. That should happen though over time. 

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18 minutes ago, LuminethMage said:

I guess most of us think like that. What I meant for example when I wrote that it's likely we see Swordmasters, White Lions and Dragon Knights, I meant that we'll see somewhat similar units . I doubt that the new "White Lions" will have White Lions coats, but I think there will be some kind of Great Axe wielding unit for the Lumineth with a similar feeling to them. Same for the Dragon Knights, if they come back, I don't think they'll ride on horses.

This is actually one of the things I look most forward to, their mounts and monsters. Will they go full Hysh Spirits a la Celennar, or do we get dragons? Or might there be some spirit like "Hysh Dragons" and how would those look like.   

I second this, I dont think we will see clones of the old high elves, I think we will see inspired models. when I said they have to balance AoS high fantasy and new with nostalgia. I think it would be cool if the dragon riders became knights who rode crystalized light in the shape of dragons into battle. not sure that will happen in fact i feel like it is unlikely but would still be pretty damn cool!

I also have to admit, I am not overly a huge fan of the white lions and the sword masters, although the latter were not horrible, just not my preference. I did dig the reavers, shadows and all the mages and dragons though! So if the Lions and sword masters come back I really hope they get a super unique twist and change to them that makes them super cool, fun, and exciting.

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I am of the mind that while the old world had it’s rich lore, it was just so limiting. For example, there is almost no reason for some armies to fight each other. How the heck could a high elf army go and fight Sylvania? Stuff like that makes it seem less appealing, just because the stories don’t make sense. Plus, I do see the rule system as very archaic, and while modern rules has it’s faults it is at least better for ease of learning.

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the Old World was actually pretty shallow. I loved it. I grew up with it. That doesn’t mean it wasn’t just a collection of classic fantasy settings and tropes smashed together and then *slightly* modified. I will always have fond memories of it but I’m sure it was incredibly hard to write for. AoS is also smashing together tropes and settings but at least they also can kind do whatever they want and get away with it. I mean how much of the old world was literally just Tolkien and Moorcock with different names? A whole dang lot. 
 

Anyway- I’m really excited to learn more about the Lumineth!

Edited by FlatTooth
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36 minutes ago, Acid_Nine said:

I am of the mind that while the old world had it’s rich lore, it was just so limiting. For example, there is almost no reason for some armies to fight each other. How the heck could a high elf army go and fight Sylvania?

Obviously because Mannfred von Carstein had kidnapped the Everchild, the High Elves had travelled the world failing to get her back a bunch, and cut of from their allies were making a last ditch attempt to rescue her from the vampire's fell clutched before he could sacrifice her in a ritual to resurrect Nagash, sheesh. 🙄😉

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1 hour ago, FlatTooth said:

the Old World was actually pretty shallow. I loved it. I grew up with it. That doesn’t mean it wasn’t just a collection of classic fantasy settings and tropes smashed together and then *slightly* modified. I will always have fond memories of it but I’m sure it was incredibly hard to write for. AoS is also smashing together tropes and settings but at least they also can kind do whatever they want and get away with it. I mean how much of the old world was literally just Tolkien and Moorcock with different names? A whole dang lot. 
 

Anyway- I’m really excited to learn more about the Lumineth!

Moorcock sounds suspiciously made up.... moor.... ******.... huh....

anyways, everything is a modified version of something. It’s impossible to not imitate to a point. 

Tropes are one thing, but they are so surface level I’m not even sure how a 30 year old setting can be criticized as tropes. I’m not actually sure who moorcock is, but I do have a familiar sense of Tolkien’s works so I’ll compare from there.

things that don’t remind me of Tolkien from old fantasy:

magic system, several aspects of elves and dwarves (the dwarves in fantasy remind me of Tolkien dwarves turned up to 11 and made ridiculous, to the point of being unique), all of death,  orks, wood elves, the actual feeling of the setting, lizardmen, lustria, cheese (warpstone), skaven, bretonnia, humans, sigmar, all the gods essentially, every single aspect of daemons (you know, the whole badguy of the setting and the main antagonist in most of the world spanning campaigns), chaos as a whole honestly, trolls, and several other aspects that could go on and on forever if I really listed every individual and identity that doesn’t remind of Tolkien’s fiction.

and the best part is every one of the above things I mentioned are based in some form on another fiction (myths and cultural monsters, it’s no secret slaanesh represents an aspect of the devil, and we all know trolls and other creatures were not made up by Tolkien) bretonnia is an obvious example, chaos humans are evil Vikings. Aztec dinosaurs. Vampires for Pete’s sake.

and even if all the above were carbon copies of Tolkien, the actual characters that made up the setting were so different and unique it would never actually be the same setting. 

Tropes don’t define a setting, and a 30 year old history is not shallow. I’m also too young to have grown up with the setting so this is just me reading up on 8th edition lore. And at no point did I even find it Tolkien esque even when reading about races that are clearly based on his works. Stories like an elven hero fighting 4 daemons with a sword dedicated to a god of murder do not make me think of anything in Tolkien’s settings. In fact to me it came off way more high fantasy then Tolkien’s. It’s loosely to Tolkien’s books what AOS is to fantasy. This is even more prominent in Lord of the rings, where the story is about normal people (hobbits) completing epic journeys despite their overall normality. To me this is like saying Star Wars is just start trek.

But if Tolkien has clear near copies of all the above then please tell me where I can read about them. I’m only really familiar with some wiki pages and the lord of the rings novels and movies, as well as the short story the hobbit (which was somehow made into 3 movies lol, not that I’m complaining, I’m glad I got to see Smaug on screen)

This concludes my late night rant, I definitely overreacted!

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13 minutes ago, TheadTheOgorSlayer said:

Moorcock sounds suspiciously made up.... moor.... ******.... huh....

anyways, everything is a modified version of something. It’s impossible to not imitate to a point. 

Tropes are one thing, but they are so surface level I’m not even sure how a 30 year old setting can be criticized as tropes. I’m not actually sure who moorcock is, but I do have a familiar sense of Tolkien’s works so I’ll compare from there.

things that don’t remind me of Tolkien from old fantasy:

magic system, several aspects of elves and dwarves (the dwarves in fantasy remind me of Tolkien dwarves turned up to 11 and made ridiculous, to the point of being unique), all of death,  orks, wood elves, the actual feeling of the setting, lizardmen, lustria, cheese (warpstone), skaven, bretonnia, humans, sigmar, all the gods essentially, every single aspect of daemons (you know, the whole badguy of the setting and the main antagonist in most of the world spanning campaigns), chaos as a whole honestly, trolls, and several other aspects that could go on and on forever if I really listed every individual and identity that doesn’t remind of Tolkien’s fiction.

and the best part is every one of the above things I mentioned are based in some form on another fiction (myths and cultural monsters, it’s no secret slaanesh represents an aspect of the devil, and we all know trolls and other creatures were not made up by Tolkien) bretonnia is an obvious example, chaos humans are evil Vikings. Aztec dinosaurs. Vampires for Pete’s sake.

and even if all the above were carbon copies of Tolkien, the actual characters that made up the setting were so different and unique it would never actually be the same setting. 

Tropes don’t define a setting, and a 30 year old history is not shallow. I’m also too young to have grown up with the setting so this is just me reading up on 8th edition lore. And at no point did I even find it Tolkien esque even when reading about races that are clearly based on his works. Stories like an elven hero fighting 4 daemons with a sword dedicated to a god of murder do not make me think of anything in Tolkien’s settings. In fact to me it came off way more high fantasy then Tolkien’s. It’s loosely to Tolkien’s books what AOS is to fantasy. This is even more prominent in Lord of the rings, where the story is about normal people (hobbits) completing epic journeys despite their overall normality. To me this is like saying Star Wars is just start trek.

But if Tolkien has clear near copies of all the above then please tell me where I can read about them. I’m only really familiar with some wiki pages and the lord of the rings novels and movies, as well as the short story the hobbit (which was somehow made into 3 movies lol, not that I’m complaining, I’m glad I got to see Smaug on screen)

This concludes my late night rant, I definitely overreacted!

Most of what you just listed was from the author you think is made up.  lizardmen were literally just a kind of appropriation of South American mythology. But did you really just argue that GW made up the lady of the lake and knights of the grail? 

Edited by FlatTooth

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1 minute ago, FlatTooth said:

Most of what you just listed was from the author you think is made up.

Very much this. I mean, Michael Moorcock is so much of an inspiration for a great deal of Warhammer fantasy... you could argue that his work is more of an inspiration than Tolkien's (beyond the basic formula of humans, elves, dwarfs, and orcs). I mean the concept of Chaos (in the form we see in Warhammer) is almost ripped wholesale from his works. You know why Chaos is represented by the eight-pointed-star? It's to represent the myriad of possibilites that Chaos represents. (The gods of Order were represented by a single arrow).

Personally I prefer Age of Sigmar's setting because it lets me go wild creating my own narrative for my army. It inspires the same feeling that DMing did; I get to create a place, a uniform, a mini culture for my faction. Frankly I couldn't do that so much in the Old World. I was playing in a world which already existed, which had defined boundaries. The Realms are so vast and so weird by comparison. I don't have the same narrative restrictions I once did.

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8 minutes ago, FlatTooth said:

Most of what you just listed was from the author you think is made up.  lizardmen were literally just a kind of appropriation of South American mythology. But did you really just argue that GW made up the lady of the lake and knights of the grail? 

Did you miss the whole part of me saying they were based on actually myths and legends. Or the part where it’s a list of things that don’t remind me of Tolkien’s books? At what point does “not remind me of Tolkien’s books” turn into “GW made up Arthurian myth”

just like all of Tolkien’s work? So therefore Tolkien is just using... stolen mythical tropes? What a shallow author lmao. 

I LITERALLY CALLED THEM AZTEC DINOSAURS 🤣 

my point is, trolls are based off myths (I believe Celtic? Can’t remember) but that doesn’t mean throgg is just a trope and shallow. Throgg is not an ancient myth. 

Groudon and Kyogre are based on myths as well, I believe  Japanese myth incredibly similar to behemoth and the leviathan from the bible. In fact every Pokémon is based on something in the real world. This doesn’t make them ununique. It just means they are based on something else, like every thing art hasn’t ever created.

absolutely zero works of fiction are 100 percent new material, you have to base at least something off of reality. The human mind can only picture what already exists, this is why you can’t think of a new shape or colour, and why drawing can be simplified into basic shapes. Art imitates nature, then more art can imitate that art, and so on until the original is unrecognizable to the new creation

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Okay so I guess we agree. As I was saying— I loved the old world. That doesn’t mean I thought it was some kind of high art with great depth. To me, there is a difference between what Tolkien did and what GW did. I can tell I hit a nerve here though so let’s just agree to disagree. 

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13 minutes ago, Thalassic Monstrosity said:

Very much this. I mean, Michael Moorcock is so much of an inspiration for a great deal of Warhammer fantasy... you could argue that his work is more of an inspiration than Tolkien's (beyond the basic formula of humans, elves, dwarfs, and orcs). I mean the concept of Chaos (in the form we see in Warhammer) is almost ripped wholesale from his works. You know why Chaos is represented by the eight-pointed-star? It's to represent the myriad of possibilites that Chaos represents. (The gods of Order were represented by a single arrow).

Personally I prefer Age of Sigmar's setting because it lets me go wild creating my own narrative for my army. It inspires the same feeling that DMing did; I get to create a place, a uniform, a mini culture for my faction. Frankly I couldn't do that so much in the Old World. I was playing in a world which already existed, which had defined boundaries. The Realms are so vast and so weird by comparison. I don't have the same narrative restrictions I once did.

I WAS MAKING FUN OF HIS NAME 🤣 

oh god does sarcasm not translate thru text well. I even spaced it out to make sure it was clear his name looks like more ****** (inappropriate body part)

im simply not familiar with moorcock, which is why I Focussed on Tolkien in my post, it would be disingenuous to do otherwise. 

 

Tolkien did not make up his myths on his own, he used already created works, but that’s fine because every single author does this to some extent

to further this point: the 8 realms is just Odin and friends. Sigmar is just odin now. That doesn’t mean they ripped off ancient myth, they just have a setting based on it. 

 

 

Edited by TheadTheOgorSlayer

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1 hour ago, Double Misfire said:

Obviously because Mannfred von Carstein had kidnapped the Everchild, the High Elves had travelled the world failing to get her back a bunch, and cut of from their allies were making a last ditch attempt to rescue her from the vampire's fell clutched before he could sacrifice her in a ritual to resurrect Nagash, sheesh. 🙄😉

While I admit that it’s a good example, the world was ending and I just meant in general, like when Mannfred was in Sylvania still. I dunno, it always seemed like a whole heck of a lot of trouble to move the army from their land masses. It’s like what i’m Experiencing in total warhammer. I want Teclis to sail across the seas and have a war with arkhan and Settra, but even if he’s literally the closest high elf to the tomb Kings area it’s still quite a trek, and I would be abandoning everything. Kinda the same thing in the lore I believe. 

 

at least in AoS if I want hammerhal to punch up ogres we can just say it’s a marauding tribe attacking a free city. Not too much of a leap to say that compared to needing the end of the world to happen before The high elves fight vampires!

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Shallow or not, the old world was relatable. Mortal Realms.. idk, I just don't care. It's simply not interesting. Was very enthusiastic about KO new book, and I still am when it comes to the faction as whole, but reading the fluff is a chore. Everything is over the top and way too complicated to be captivating.

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1 hour ago, TheadTheOgorSlayer said:

I WAS MAKING FUN OF HIS NAME 🤣 

oh god does sarcasm not translate thru text well. I even spaced it out to make sure it was clear his name looks like more ****** (inappropriate body part)

im simply not familiar with moorcock, which is why I Focussed on Tolkien in my post, it would be disingenuous to do otherwise.

I knew that was what you were doing.  I just thought you might be curious to know more about Moorcock and the effect his works had on the old setting.

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2 hours ago, TheadTheOgorSlayer said:

Tolkien did not make up his myths on his own, he used already created works, but that’s fine because every single author does this to some extent

to further this point: the 8 realms is just Odin and friends. Sigmar is just odin now.

Tolkien borrowed a lot to build his world, but then he told an original and engaging story with it. That's the difference between Tolkien's fiction and Warhammer Fantasy, the latter recycled worldbuilding material to tell recycled stories and there was rarely any stakes or engagement. It was a cool enough world to tell your own stories in if you played WHFRP but the metaplot was incredibly stagnant.

 

Also Sigmar is not Odin. If he is any Norse god, he is maybe Baldr. Ulric would be a closer Odin analogue.

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Do every on want dragon prinses whit lions and sward masters are i the only one ho wants elementals or animated armours as elit units?

Edited by Fellman
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I can’t speak for everyone of course but in my case, I’d rather the Lumineth be Aelves which ride monsters or work with some cool stuff like Spiderguy mentioned above than their elites being monstrous units themselves. More like the Idoneth and less like the Sylvaneth or Daughters. 

But I wouldn’t mind if there is some cool Hysh spirit, light dragon, elemental or something like that among them. 

I just hope they don’t go with the - the Lumineth are already almost extinct and rely on animated warriors and spirits because of numbers - thing. I’d really like to have some expanding elves for once. That’s kind of the only thing I really don’t feel nostalgic about. 

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