Aos 2 - Lumineth Realm-Lords Discussion

[Chumphammer]

22 hours ago, woolf said:

yep agree something "boring" like that can probably be pretty strong. what do you think about the sanctum endless spell btw? to protect Cathallar?

Hmm, Sanctum.

Pro:
only 30 pts
treated as one model so stops things getting too close 
+1 AS and -1 to hit
Can throw mortal wounds onto near enemy units 

Cons:
doesn't move (the big one for me)
Doesn't do anything vs spells

I think it can work well with a Alarith list where the stonemage needs to stay near your MegaMoos as you can drop it turn 2 and just stay in the spot

I usually run my Cathallar inside my block of 30 Wardens, so wouldnt be useful for me.

I might try it at some point, but if I had the spare 30-40 pts i would rather have Shackles or Pallisade 


 

[woolf]

8 minutes ago, Chumphammer said:

Hmm, Sanctum.

Pro:
only 30 pts
treated as one model so stops things getting too close 
+1 AS and -1 to hit
Can throw mortal wounds onto near enemy units 

Cons:
doesn't move (the big one for me)
Doesn't do anything vs spells

I think it can work well with a Alarith list where the stonemage needs to stay near your MegaMoos as you can drop it turn 2 and just stay in the spot

I usually run my Cathallar inside my block of 30 Wardens, so wouldnt be useful for me.

I might try it at some point, but if I had the spare 30-40 pts i would rather have Shackles or Pallisade 


 

are you sure its stationary? I thought it became part if the model and would move with the wizard?

[Chumphammer]

43 minutes ago, woolf said:

are you sure its stationary? I thought it became part if the model and would move with the wizard?

Hmm, yeah I suppose it it makes you one model it might work like that. I didnt think that was the case 

[Rock Lobster]

First test model completed, was too lazy to think of a new scheme so used the same from my 40k space marines. I think it works well for lumineth though.

[LuminethMage]

4 hours ago, Chumphammer said:

As others have said, but basically he lets you dominate 1 phase, but thats it. 

He has 1 main damage spell, and is a support hero. But 16W with only a 4+ save (yes yes, you can buff it for 1 maybe 2 turns) and maybe a 5+ FNP if you get it off before they can get to him, isnt great. He is so squishy for 660pts and isnt very good in combat

Yes, he can work, if you build your army into a 2 drop protection/support bubble for him, but in an age where magic/ranged is huge and Objs are really important, you wont really have the bodies to spare chasing objectives if you are keeping him defended.

You can still get Eclipse and Protection off without him

He can be really good. He can win games and hell in a good players hands he can win a tournament. But im my opinion he is too much of a risk. People just latch onto his amazing power at magic dominance 

Reading through the posts here (not specifically yours), it looks more like many people are underestimating his usefulness to me (there was even someone who wrote he is useless if he can’t cast 4 spells in T1). 

Having a lot of points in one relatively squishy model is inherently risky, but many people write as if all opponents are going to be able to out-drop you and kill him in T1. Some will be, and at least for some time when tournaments start again it’s likely you’ll see relatively many shooting-heavy armies, because those will also be useful against other armies which are doing good right now. On the other hand, some of the shooting might not be as good anymore once we have all the point adjustments (salamanders, flammers). 

But without Teclis, you rely a lot on 5+/5W Wizards which are at least as easily killed by the same shooting armies - and won’t offer your army nearly as much protection against magic and mortal wounds. His 4+ ignore magic bubble, plus his 5+ Ward and auto-unbind will make any opponent think twice about even attempting to cast any damaging spells on a large junk of you army at the start of the game.

Teclis also helps with casting PoH more reliantly for several units in range. I think this is really important for your Sentinels at the start, to either kill some key models, or bracket possible high damage threats. You mentioned that the +1 of Zaitrec to casting was really useful, with Teclis you’d have a +2 (or the same, plus 2 Aetherquartz or whatever, or even +3 or more with the Stones).

That’s why I also have my doubts about how comparable Teclis and Alarielle are, because they are in complete different armies after all. As a Lumineth player - if you get T1 you can already work on making Teclis safer by attacking threats to him with your sentinels. After you put 6 MW on a Mortek Crawler or many other units, they will be less of a threat to Teclis. That’s much more difficult to pull off with the Sylvaneth. 

Teclis is also one of the few models we have that actually has a good movement range (and can fly). If you can keep him alive, that’s also helpful. He isn’t strong in combat, but should be able to kill smaller guardian units on objects later in the game between his ranged attack, Searing White Light (and if necessary he could do 4 damaging spells), and his melee attacks. 

And the time your opponent spends on trying to kill him, he wont be focused on your Cathallar/Stonemage and sentinels. Teclis could also be a trap for your opponent. 

I agree though with your point about objects, looking at the new maps, having few units and bodies on the board will be even more a problem than right now in most cases (but on some maps he might be good with his big base and giving extra points).

In the end, it’s great that it doesn’t look like Teclis is an auto-include, and we will also see more Alarith-centered builds once those models are out. That makes it less likely there are many opponents who specifically will build armies to counter Teclis, and more options for us to play in a variety of ways. 

I’ll try him out, expecting to lose several games at first. His abilities just look too much fun to not give it a shot, at least for me personally.

[Eldarain]

That terrain is brilliant. Wow!

[woolf]

12 hours ago, Aelfric said:

I also have a question about the Cathallar;  Can they absorb the -1 to bravery if there is no enemy unit within 18" or do they have to be able to pass it to the enemy for it to work?  I'm finding the wording a little unclear on this; It could be interpreted either way.

Im pretty sure you can negate the neg 1 to your own unit even if you cant pass it on to an enemy unit. Its written like two distinct effects i.e. 1) negate the neg to you and 2) you can pick an enemy and if you do, you can give it neg 1 to bravery. and 1 does not seem to be conditional on 2 going through

[John Edwards]

18 hours ago, fenriswolf2003 said:

Could you send a link? I am too stupid to find it 

https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/838714461/elven-obelisk-on-floating-rocks-base

[Chumphammer]

16 hours ago, LuminethMage said:

Reading through the posts here (not specifically yours), it looks more like many people are underestimating his usefulness to me (there was even someone who wrote he is useless if he can’t cast 4 spells in T1). 

Having a lot of points in one relatively squishy model is inherently risky, but many people write as if all opponents are going to be able to out-drop you and kill him in T1. Some will be, and at least for some time when tournaments start again it’s likely you’ll see relatively many shooting-heavy armies, because those will also be useful against other armies which are doing good right now. On the other hand, some of the shooting might not be as good anymore once we have all the point adjustments (salamanders, flammers). 

But without Teclis, you rely a lot on 5+/5W Wizards which are at least as easily killed by the same shooting armies - and won’t offer your army nearly as much protection against magic and mortal wounds. His 4+ ignore magic bubble, plus his 5+ Ward and auto-unbind will make any opponent think twice about even attempting to cast any damaging spells on a large junk of you army at the start of the game.

Teclis also helps with casting PoH more reliantly for several units in range. I think this is really important for your Sentinels at the start, to either kill some key models, or bracket possible high damage threats. You mentioned that the +1 of Zaitrec to casting was really useful, with Teclis you’d have a +2 (or the same, plus 2 Aetherquartz or whatever, or even +3 or more with the Stones).

That’s why I also have my doubts about how comparable Teclis and Alarielle are, because they are in complete different armies after all. As a Lumineth player - if you get T1 you can already work on making Teclis safer by attacking threats to him with your sentinels. After you put 6 MW on a Mortek Crawler or many other units, they will be less of a threat to Teclis. That’s much more difficult to pull off with the Sylvaneth. 

Teclis is also one of the few models we have that actually has a good movement range (and can fly). If you can keep him alive, that’s also helpful. He isn’t strong in combat, but should be able to kill smaller guardian units on objects later in the game between his ranged attack, Searing White Light (and if necessary he could do 4 damaging spells), and his melee attacks. 

And the time your opponent spends on trying to kill him, he wont be focused on your Cathallar/Stonemage and sentinels. Teclis could also be a trap for your opponent. 

I agree though with your point about objects, looking at the new maps, having few units and bodies on the board will be even more a problem than right now in most cases (but on some maps he might be good with his big base and giving extra points).

In the end, it’s great that it doesn’t look like Teclis is an auto-include, and we will also see more Alarith-centered builds once those models are out. That makes it less likely there are many opponents who specifically will build armies to counter Teclis, and more options for us to play in a variety of ways. 

I’ll try him out, expecting to lose several games at first. His abilities just look too much fun to not give it a shot, at least for me personally.

I wont disagree with anything you have said there. He will be seen and some people will do well with him

I know in my meta that in a 5 game even I will run into at least 2 armies that can cap him turn 1/2

I am looking forward to seeing how Teclis plays out, and LRL when events start again, as Seraphon and changehost havent had their full impact yet since COVID

[ObsidianCrane]

On 7/19/2020 at 6:04 AM, Chumphammer said:

Hmm, yeah I suppose it it makes you one model it might work like that. I didnt think that was the case 

Well its text says they become one model, and your wizard can move. (Isn't there another endless that already works like that?)

[Eldarain]

The Cauldron for Gitz works that way and says it must remain within 1" insinuating you can move them. 

[LuminethMage]

7 hours ago, Chumphammer said:

I wont disagree with anything you have said there. He will be seen and some people will do well with him

I know in my meta that in a 5 game even I will run into at least 2 armies that can cap him turn 1/2

I am looking forward to seeing how Teclis plays out, and LRL when events start again, as Seraphon and changehost havent had their full impact yet since COVID

That's the important thing - if your local meta is like that, then you have to adapt. 100% agree. I just had the feeling going through several of the posts that some of the discussion here focused a bit too much on what some hypothetical hyper competitive tournament circumstances might be, which most of us won't encounter (especially not under current circumstances ...). I saw that some people who wanted to try him out got discouraged to do it - which I think is not necessary right now. He looks like a lot of fun, and in many circumstances won't be killed in T1. If you like him try him out, and see how it goes. 

If there are no points adjustments, things like Seraphon and Changehost will be difficult to handle for Lumineth I think whatever you chose. If you have Teclis you risk losing him early and face issues on objectives  if not, it'll be hard to deal with all the incoming WM those factions can dish out, and you spells getting shut down more regularly. Will be interesting to see how it all pans out, and what lists turn out to be good in the end. 

Looking forward to your next update on how it goes with your list.

[Prince Tûrion Rilyalöce]

Fresh from the Anvil of Apotheosis, Caledor lives on! After a rebasing and some touch ups to bring them in line with my scheme of course.

So I need some critiques. Tell me if this hits the mark thematically and if it will be somewhat effective on the table. I am not looking for pure power so ethereal is out. Terror should probably be in here but I just couldn’t spare the point, which is part of the genius and fun of the Anvil. I was agonizing haha.

LOGIC AND INFO

400 points, max damage 39 plus the breath weapon, role is big damage, objective clearing, and board control as we get mortal wounds from other sources. 

So I will be using Iliatha Nation, it was between that and Syar, but I think that the Simulacra Amulet is just too good for a model like this. As an alternative Syar would make my force more flexible with the reserves and I would worry less about the weapon being potent with their artifact, so I could build more for durability that way. 

I am planning a Cathallar, 2 blocks of 20 wardens and 2 blocks of 20 Sentinels or one of 20 and one of 10 as the core of the army to take advantage of the twin command trait and the Legion Battalion. The bravery boost will be nice as this guy will be far from home probably, so they need to be self sufficient. 

Other than that, I am thinking of some Dawnriders for crowd control and speed, and the endless spell Petrification to control the board with 2 big area threats along with the dragon. Still room under 2k to try complimentary pieces. 
 

SELF CRITIQUE

So this guy isn’t what I am used to from a durability standpoint, being rather squishy for such a big threatening model that will surely get aggro. I am going to have to use speed, terrain, and buffs to last, but that’s also part of the draw of Iliatha and the Amulet as insurance, which is why I didn’t try to focus more on protection.

Do I need to go more rend on the Lance? How effective is -2 against most things?

Is three drops low enough to get first turn most of the time? Hopefully in the matchups I don’t, I won’t face a force built to shoot him off the table before he can do anything, but sometimes that’s just how it goes and I am hoping it won’t be too frequent. 

Thanks for taking the time to read and respond!
 

 

 

 

prince-t__00fbrion-rilyaloc__00eb-and-laur__00ebdrauginir-the-golden (1).pdf

Edited July 20, 2020 by Prince Tûrion Rilyalöce
Typos.

[Eldarain]

That "construct a hero" couldn't have come along at a better time for your centerpiece there.

I'm not super familiar with it but can you assign subfaction/Artifacts to Anvil characters?

[LuminethMage]

@Prince Tûrion Rilyalöce

Not sure what you mean with thematically. As a Caledor Dragon-rider the abilities and everything else fits well, but your model and lore has nothing to do at all with the Lumineth (thematically, the character name, abilities, colour scheme etc.). Especially not with the Teclian side of the Lumineth (as such it's a great model and amazing paint job of course!). I've played HE since 4th ed., love Saphery, and certainly miss a normal Archmage and Loremaster type within the Lumineth, but creating a character which has absolutely nothing to do with the current setting seems a bit pointless to me. If it's fine for you and your group, then there is no problem at all with it of course, but I think you'll run into problems if you want to include him into a wider range of narrative campaigns for example with people who want to play AOS and not Warhammer Fantasy Battles.

As for the abilities: -2 rend is good, only a few models have -3. Maybe give the lance a 2" reach if that is possible, seems more fitting for a lance, or? 3 drops is very good in most circumstances. To know how good it will be in your case, you'd have to check your local group and what armies and list they play. If I understand the Caledor Plate correctly and he only has a single 4+ Save he's still pretty fragile if someone really wants kill him.  

About the Amulet: Some people and TOs could consider these Heroes named characters (especially as he clearly is in your case: ) ), and won't allow you to take the Amulet. You might consider to make an alternative character which works fine without it, just in case. Especially because the Amulet is very good with Heroes like yours and that could very well be the reason why the Lumineth didn't get any like this (for example making the Alarith Mountain Spirit not a Hero). 

Edited July 20, 2020 by LuminethMage

[Prince Tûrion Rilyalöce]

55 minutes ago, LuminethMage said:

@Prince Tûrion Rilyalöce

Not sure what you mean with thematically. As a Caledor Dragon-rider the abilities and everything else fits well, but your model and lore has nothing to do at all with the Lumineth (thematically, the character name, abilities, colour scheme etc.). Especially not with the Teclian side of the Lumineth (as such it's a great model and amazing paint job of course!). I've played HE since 4th ed., love Saphery, and certainly miss a normal Archmage and Loremaster type within the Lumineth, but creating a character which has absolutely nothing to do with the current setting seems a bit pointless to me. If it's fine for you and your group, then there is no problem at all with it of course, but I think you'll run into problems if you want to include him into a wider range of narrative campaigns for example with people who want to play AOS and not Warhammer Fantasy Battles.

As for the abilities: -2 rend is good, only a few models have -3. Maybe give the lance a 2" reach if that is possible, seems more fitting for a lance, or? 3 drops is very good in most circumstances. To know how good it will be in your case, you'd have to check your local group and what armies and list they play. If I understand the Caledor Plate correctly and he only has a single 4+ Save he's still pretty fragile if someone really wants kill him.  

About the Amulet: Some people and TOs could consider these Heroes named characters (especially as he clearly is in your case: ) ), and won't allow you to take the Amulet. You might consider to make an alternative character which works fine without it, just in case. Especially because the Amulet is very good with Heroes like yours and that could very well be the reason why the Lumineth didn't get any like this (for example making the Alarith Mountain Spirit not a Hero). 

Hey thanks for the response!

Sorry I didn’t qualify thematically very well... I meant in the context of a Dragon Rider of old created from scratch, you’re right he has nothing really to do with Lumineth as yet, other than them being the approximate High Elf equivalent.

The only point of this was to be able to still use the model. I play locally so it shouldn’t be an issue.

Thanks for the points on the Lance and armour. Striking a balance is really hard with the anvil, actually agonizing. There aren’t many ways to get more than 1 save and it’s expensive. Do you think the offense is overkill for a big game hunter and I need to shift more resources to D?

Lastly you can only use these characters in matches if the opponent allows it. But if they do, I don’t see any reason why you can’t take the amulet. They gain the keywords required to become the faction and then the Great Nation says; 

“When you choose a Lumineth Realm Lords army, you can give you can give it a great nation keyword from the list. All Lumineth Realm Lords units gain the keyword.”

So keyword wise it’s eligible and I don’t see anything in the Anvil to say they count as named characters, and can’t be given artefacts. Wonder if something like this is worth them FAQing. One one hand they are like house rules, but on the other they did print the rules in an official book.

But my guess is this is all hinging on your opponent giving permission in matched anyway. 

 

 

 

[LuminethMage]

19 minutes ago, Prince Tûrion Rilyalöce said:

Hey thanks for the response!

Sorry I didn’t qualify thematically very well... I meant in the context of a Dragon Rider of old created from scratch, you’re right he has nothing really to do with Lumineth as yet, other than them being the approximate High Elf equivalent.

The only point of this was to be able to still use the model. I play locally so it shouldn’t be an issue.

Thanks for the points on the Lance and armour. Striking a balance is really hard with the anvil, actually agonizing. There aren’t many ways to get more than 1 save and it’s expensive. Do you think the offense is overkill for a big game hunter and I need to shift more resources to D?

Lastly you can only use these characters in matches if the opponent allows it. But if they do, I don’t see any reason why you can’t take the amulet. They gain the keywords required to become the faction and then the Great Nation says; 

“When you choose a Lumineth Realm Lords army, you can give you can give it a great nation keyword from the list. All Lumineth Realm Lords units gain the keyword.”

So keyword wise it’s eligible and I don’t see anything in the Anvil to say they count as named characters, and can’t be given artefacts. Wonder if something like this is worth them FAQing. One one hand they are like house rules, but on the other they did print the rules in an official book.

But my guess is this is all hinging on your opponent giving permission in matched anyway. 

 

 

 

Nothing to say sorry! Sure, if you play locally, the background is fine and fits well with a Caledor Dragon Knight. : ) 

About the mechanical part, as you play locally, why not try it out, and adjust it from there in case it won't work out? It's really difficult to say. If you mostly play with friends who also do not have the most competitive lists and maybe aren't out to really make your life miserable, then he's probably fine. It might be also fun to see how you can keep him alive etc. 

About the Amulet - you are right, the keyword does indeed allow him to take an artifact. But named characters in AoS in general can't take artifacts. If you put Teclis, Avalenor or Eltharion into Iliatha they also couldn't take this artifact. At the moment it's not clear and needs to be clarified, but I have a strong feeling this won't be allowed. Because you can't give these heroes secondary keywords (like Scinary, Alarith etc.) which means they can't take the general artifacts and traits right now.  So it would be a bit strange if they could take the Great Nation ones. Moreover, I think it will lead to problematic builds even more so than with what you just can do right now with only the Anvil's abilities.

That said, if you only play locally - you can always check with your friends. If they don't think your character is OP for 400 points with this Amulet, then there is no problem at all (even if GW rules in the end that AoA heroes can't take such an artifact). You can also think about this a bit yourself, how would you feel if someone can bring back such a character on a 50/50 chance once in the battle? If they can make equally strong characters (who also can take artifacts), again there is no problem as long as you play just locally. The main aim after all is to have fun, and having more options with your artifacts can increase the fun for everyone as long as it isn't abused. I hope it works out for you! The AoA is perfect for things like this. 

[woolf]

6 hours ago, LuminethMage said:

That's the important thing - if your local meta is like that, then you have to adapt. 100% agree. I just had the feeling going through several of the posts that some of the discussion here focused a bit too much on what some hypothetical hyper competitive tournament circumstances might be, which most of us won't encounter (especially not under current circumstances ...). I saw that some people who wanted to try him out got discouraged to do it - which I think is not necessary right now. He looks like a lot of fun, and in many circumstances won't be killed in T1. If you like him try him out, and see how it goes. 

If there are no points adjustments, things like Seraphon and Changehost will be difficult to handle for Lumineth I think whatever you chose. If you have Teclis you risk losing him early and face issues on objectives  if not, it'll be hard to deal with all the incoming WM those factions can dish out, and you spells getting shut down more regularly. Will be interesting to see how it all pans out, and what lists turn out to be good in the end. 

Looking forward to your next update on how it goes with your list.

I suspect some of that might be referring to posts I wrote, so just wanted to assure that I for sure did not mean to discourage anyone in trying out Teclis! the army hasnt seen any real play yet (or very limited to be sure) so we dont really know. I just wanted to lift the discussion of Teclis since all I have come across in media so far (e.g. The honest wargamer and warhammer weekly) is that he is supergood and might even be a "negative play experience" for the opponent, but then when I have started writing lists and trying out in my head how he plays out, I had a hard time reconciling that view with what he seems to be able to do/not do so I was genuinely curious what other people on the forum thought on that. 
 

But yea, I'm pretty sure I will get a Teclis of my own and I 100% agree with you that he seems a lot of fun to play with, in particular as he is so versatile with access to a very high number of spells, reliable casting of endless spells and what have you. And yes ofc also agree that not all is about maximized tournament lists, in reality thats not what you go for in most local games, its not even what you want to do (we e.g. typically opt out of things like Petrifex double catapult in our local group, it was tried and then we moved on so to speak..). 

[mystycalchemy]

24 minutes ago, woolf said:

I suspect some of that might be referring to posts I wrote, so just wanted to assure that I for sure did not mean to discourage anyone in trying out Teclis! the army hasnt seen any real play yet (or very limited to be sure) so we dont really know. I just wanted to lift the discussion of Teclis since all I have come across in media so far (e.g. The honest wargamer and warhammer weekly) is that he is supergood and might even be a "negative play experience" for the opponent, but then when I have started writing lists and trying out in my head how he plays out, I had a hard time reconciling that view with what he seems to be able to do/not do so I was genuinely curious what other people on the forum thought on that. 
 

But yea, I'm pretty sure I will get a Teclis of my own and I 100% agree with you that he seems a lot of fun to play with, in particular as he is so versatile with access to a very high number of spells, reliable casting of endless spells and what have you. And yes ofc also agree that not all is about maximized tournament lists, in reality thats not what you go for in most local games, its not even what you want to do (we e.g. typically opt out of things like Petrifex double catapult in our local group, it was tried and then we moved on so to speak..). 

so I have a semi-related question to this. I'm planning on running a Zaitrec list with Teclis, some archers, Eltharion and Wardens. My brother (who I play against most often) has OBR and plays Petrifex with Katakros and Nagash and says if I take Teclis, he takes Nagash. Does this seem fair? The way I see it, Nagash can (fairly easily) counter most everything Teclis does thanks to the 8 unbinds and the +3, while Teclis might have trouble dealing with all of Nagash's spells. 

I guess what I'm asking is: What can LRL do against Petrifex with Katakros and Nagash? For reference, I've also got Tzeentch (Pyrofane Cult Kairics), Gloomspite (Troggoths with a small amount of Grots), Khorne (Random bits and bobs, no cohesive list, just a random assortment of models really) and Stormcast, but none of those armies have even managed to take a game off of him. Obviously this is probably due to pilot error, but I'm hoping you folks can help me hammer out some general tactics/what to do to fight OBR, with Lumineth mostly

My List:

Spoiler

Teclis 
Eltharion
Cathallar (General, Zaitrec Trait + Relic)

1x20 Vanari Wardens
1x10 Vanari Wardens
2x10 Vanari Sentinels
1x5 Vanari Dawnriders 
Auralan Legion

Hyshian Twinstones

 

[woolf]

11 minutes ago, mystycalchemy said:

so I have a semi-related question to this. I'm planning on running a Zaitrec list with Teclis, some archers, Eltharion and Wardens. My brother (who I play against most often) has OBR and plays Petrifex with Katakros and Nagash and says if I take Teclis, he takes Nagash. Does this seem fair? The way I see it, Nagash can (fairly easily) counter most everything Teclis does thanks to the 8 unbinds and the +3, while Teclis might have trouble dealing with all of Nagash's spells. 

I guess what I'm asking is: What can LRL do against Petrifex with Katakros and Nagash? For reference, I've also got Tzeentch (Pyrofane Cult Kairics), Gloomspite (Troggoths with a small amount of Grots), Khorne (Random bits and bobs, no cohesive list, just a random assortment of models really) and Stormcast, but none of those armies have even managed to take a game off of him. Obviously this is probably due to pilot error, but I'm hoping you folks can help me hammer out some general tactics/what to do to fight OBR, with Lumineth mostly

My List:

  Reveal hidden contents

Teclis 
Eltharion
Cathallar (General, Zaitrec Trait + Relic)

1x20 Vanari Wardens
1x10 Vanari Wardens
2x10 Vanari Sentinels
1x5 Vanari Dawnriders 
Auralan Legion

Hyshian Twinstones

 

Against such a regular player as your brother I would to be honest try to have a discussion with him rather than engage in an arms race, e.g. ask him to swap armies and try to engage in list building together with the objective of creating a "fair" game set up, maybe call it a narrative or what have you (Nagash vs Teclis could be a fun set-up I suppose).

But that aside, is he using both Nagash and Katakros (if he is, that shouldnt be too hard to beat I think)? if he doesnt have any catapults, you should be able to keep Teclis fairly safe, basically just stay out of Nagash arcane bolt range. Teclis should be able to shut down Nagash casting fairly well too so could be a bit of a stand off (you have one autounbind and then +1 to unbind on his warscroll, remember teclis aura gives himself +1 for unbind although it doesnt affect his casting, with zaitrec thats +2 and then you have his ignore and bounce back MW aura) and with 1300pts invested in those 2 center pieces, your brother shouldnt have much bodies to grab objectives. Make sure you also play scenarios that have multiple objectives so he cant just exploit having those immortal units (because with all the healing and in Petrifex, you shouldnt even try to take them out I think). I would probably go in with a Warden heavy list against that as the damage you can deal with the archers will just be healed back up more or less and the way you will win that match is by grabbing the objectives, making your dudes ethereal + 5up ward save and then he will likely struggle to move you off them. 

You might also want to consider throwing in the twinstones, that way you can give your Vanari 3+ (with teclis aura, zaitrec, twinstone) which gives you a fair chance to get the power of hysh buff off even with Nagash unbinding. And that spell on wardens should allow you to chew through his mortek guards.

In my opinion Petrifex Nagash is probably "stronger" or at least easier to play than Teclis, but is it unfair? not sure tbh. Nagash brackets much worse than Teclis so after some wounds taken Teclis will outshine him in magic, although with Katakross added healing that might be hard to achieve.. Nagash is obviously also 200pts more expensive. My general opinion on Petrifex is that its a bit unbalanced but there are plenty of discussions on that elsewhere and this is clearly not the right forum, regardless I dont think Lumineth suffers that much against Petrifex as some other armies do, the "problem" for us with the OBR matchup is mainly the catapults I would think.

Cheers

[LuminethMage]

4 minutes ago, woolf said:

I suspect some of that might be referring to posts I wrote, so just wanted to assure that I for sure did not mean to discourage anyone in trying out Teclis! the army hasnt seen any real play yet (or very limited to be sure) so we dont really know. I just wanted to lift the discussion of Teclis since all I have come across in media so far (e.g. The honest wargamer and warhammer weekly) is that he is supergood and might even be a "negative play experience" for the opponent, but then when I have started writing lists and trying out in my head how he plays out, I had a hard time reconciling that view with what he seems to be able to do/not do so I was genuinely curious what other people on the forum thought on that. 
 

But yea, I'm pretty sure I will get a Teclis of my own and I 100% agree with you that he seems a lot of fun to play with, in particular as he is so versatile with access to a very high number of spells, reliable casting of endless spells and what have you. And yes ofc also agree that not all is about maximized tournament lists, in reality thats not what you go for in most local games, its not even what you want to do (we e.g. typically opt out of things like Petrifex double catapult in our local group, it was tried and then we moved on so to speak..). 

I didn't mean someone specifically, just the general tenor of the last few pages. 100% agree with what everything you said here. I also saw those shows, and while I really like both, and find them informative, fun and everything - they also have a bit of their own agenda, and preferred play styles.

I find the NPE talk really difficult, because while it's certainly something you have to keep in mind and is important, I think this is better dealt with locally like you mentioned with the Petrifex Elite/Crawler issue in your group. On a larger scale, I find it more problematic, because what someone might find to be a NPE, someone else could find challenging, doesn't care, or even fun. You saw this play out very much in the Honest Wargamer vids where Rob seemed to be much more concerned than his guests about Teclis and the Lumineth in general. I have the feeling that because it's a relative new thing, a lot of people have problems with armies that are strong in the magic phase. But then, as you say, no one really plays right now, so the Teclis to the Lumineth could be a real problem in the end. We have to wait and see. But almost every army which came out had NPE and OP accusations thrown at them (some of which were valid of course). 

@mystycalchemy You didn't ask me, buuuuut I hope it's fine if I also reply to this. Sounds really interesting! I think it's totally fair to take Nagash if you take Teclis. It's great to find out how much better Nagash really is. Teclis can auto-unbind his really important spells,  and if crucial can still force through one of his own spells, with Nagash not being able to do anything about it.

If you cast 2 spell on a 12, that's not easy to unbind even with a plus three. And you have Teclis bubble 4+ ignore spells and 5+ ward bubbles. Plus if you play Zaitrec you also have a lot of unbind/dispel power of your own. If you go with Teclis 4 spells, Nagash might be able to unbind many of those, but then can't unbind all the other spells like PoH - which should be crucial against OBR. For me this looks like the perfect opportunity to really learn how to play Teclis and Zaitrec. I'd drop Eltharion for another Cathallar maybe (for the sweet silver wand - MOA SPELL POWER! : ) ) and another 10 Sentinels. 30 of those could help you bracket Nagash so that he doesn't stay with his 8 spells and +3 for ever. But try your list and see how it performs. Sounds like fun! 

[mystycalchemy]

 

20 minutes ago, woolf said:

-snip-

 

16 minutes ago, LuminethMage said:

-snip-

These are both really helpful tips! I'll keep it in mind and play around with my list, see what works! Unfortunately, having him switch armies isn't an option at the moment, I've been playing AoS for a while now, while he only got interested with OBR, so that's his only army (Besides an Akhelian King and a Leviadon remaining from his previously sold Deepkin army, he just liked those two models and kept them for display!)

[woolf]

12 minutes ago, LuminethMage said:

I find the NPE talk really difficult, because while it's certainly something you have to keep in mind and is important, I think this is better dealt with locally like you mentioned with the Petrifex Elite/Crawler issue in your group. On a larger scale, I find it more problematic, because what someone might find to be a NPE, someone else could find challenging, doesn't care, or even fun. You saw this play out very much in the Honest Wargamer vids where Rob seemed to be much more concerned than his guests about Teclis and the Lumineth in general. I have the feeling that because it's a relative new thing, a lot of people have problems with armies that are strong in the magic phase. But then, as you say, no one really plays right now, so the Teclis to the Lumineth could be a real problem in the end. We have to wait and see. But almost every army which came out had NPE and OP accusations thrown at them (some of which were valid of course). 

really resonates ^^ e.g. I always found the rage Rob displays against eels to be a little bit exaggerated, kinda sounds like he himself has been struggling a lot against that build and someone close to him uses it a lot. I play deepkin and going up against my friends we never found the eels that oppressive (to be fair though I haven't used the 18-24 eel netlist but prefer to mix it up a bit). And without the eels, deepkin would be almost unplayable so doing what he suggests and wreck them would just wreck that whole faction...
 

And when it comes to tournament play I dont think NPE should be a concern at all, if you really want to maximise then just get the "best" and most "OP" army yourself... So for a show that is explicitly focused on tournament play I find it maybe a bit strange to put so much emphasis on it. When it comes to them discussing the overall health of the game etc, yea I think its a valid thing to discuss. And for local play with friends, for sure NPE can be an issue but in a healthy group it will self-regulate

[woolf]

2 minutes ago, mystycalchemy said:

These are both really helpful tips! I'll keep it in mind and play around with my list, see what works! Unfortunately, having him switch armies isn't an option at the moment, I've been playing AoS for a while now, while he only got interested with OBR, so that's his only army (Besides an Akhelian King and a Leviadon remaining from his previously sold Deepkin army, he just liked those two models and kept them for display!)

Ok happy to help. Just to clarify with switching I mean that you play his OBR and he plays one of your armies. But also if he is that new maybe its smart of you to let him win a bit so he gets more hyped ^^

[Raffonerd]

I agree with you guys. 

The thing is that if you can get turn 1, and you cast protection + ethereal on Teclis (without syaing cogs or even a worse mystical shield), he will survive turn one for sure. Which is not granted for Alarielle.

Plus, not in every mission he can be hitted that hard to die first turn. If that happens, and he survives, a double turn can easily wipe out the opponent. (think about a KO going all in and leave Teclis with 2 wounds, he goes double turn, cast 8 spells + cac/shooting, you have won that). So, it's pretty risky also for you opponent. If he does not goes all in, you can try to cast protection + ehtereal and try to save him.

Edited July 20, 2020 by Raffonerd