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HollowHills

Aos 2 - Lumineth Realm-Lords Discussion

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14 hours ago, Chumphammer said:

My thoughts on Teclis:

It's A Trap! | Know Your Meme

List looks alright. Only thing I might change would be Maybe switching out the Sentinels to 10's and then having 2 x 10 Wardens to go behind the Stoneguard as extra damage support, but I think that increases you to 8 drops. 

 
 

Way is teclis a trap? Genuine question

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Fellman said:

Way is teclis a trap? Genuine question

Because

1. Its a 660 point model that can be shot off the table turn 1 by any serious shooting thats a third off your army just gone

2. Its a 660 point model with a 4+ save

 3. I know he's not supposed to be a combat monster but his maximum damage output in one turn if combat is eighteen. come on !

Compared to Alarielle 

1. She costs less and can hide behind trees so she doesn't get shot off

( She can also bring on 200 points of free sylvenath

2. She has a 3+  save and can heal in her hero phase 

3.She has much better damage and the beetle does impact hits

Teclis is just a bit risky.  I don think he's worth his points because all he's good at is magic and yes he is very good at that

Edited by Elves are the best

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, Elves are the best said:

Because

1. Its a 660 point model that can be shot off the table turn 1 by any serious shooting thats a third off your army just gone

2. Its a 660 point model with a 4+ save

 3. I know he's not supposed to be a combat monster but his maximum damage output in one turn if combat is eighteen. come on !

Compared to Alarielle 

1. She costs less and can hide behind trees so she doesn't get shot off

( She can also bring on 200 points of free sylvenath

2. She has a 3+  save and can heal in her hero phase 

3.She has much better damage and the beetle does impact hits

Teclis is just a bit risky.  I don think he's worth his points because all he's good at is magic and yes he is very good at that

If i remember right she cant hide behind trees becouse she fly, or the new sylvaneth rules changed that?

Edited by Entombet
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26 minutes ago, Elves are the best said:

Because

1. Its a 660 point model that can be shot off the table turn 1 by any serious shooting thats a third off your army just gone

2. Its a 660 point model with a 4+ save

 3. I know he's not supposed to be a combat monster but his maximum damage output in one turn if combat is eighteen. come on !

Compared to Alarielle 

1. She costs less and can hide behind trees so she doesn't get shot off

( She can also bring on 200 points of free sylvenath

2. She has a 3+  save and can heal in her hero phase 

3.She has much better damage and the beetle does impact hits

Teclis is just a bit risky.  I don think he's worth his points because all he's good at is magic and yes he is very good at that

I'm not sure that this is a fair comparison.  Teclis's damage output in melee is not why you take him.  He deals damage through magic and buffs the rest of your army the same way.  Allarielle has fly, so can't benefit from hiding behind Wyldwoods and can also be shot off the table turn one by some armies, but that's part of the risk you take with all high value units.  

The main issue, as I see it, is that it means fewer points for other units to help with objective-scoring, which is how you win games.  Whether the trade-off is worth it really depends on your play-style and strategy.

I will get the model and give it a go, but what I really want to try is two Mountain Spirits.  

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44 minutes ago, Aelfric said:

I'm not sure that this is a fair comparison.  Teclis's damage output in melee is not why you take him.  He deals damage through magic and buffs the rest of your army the same way.  Allarielle has fly, so can't benefit from hiding behind Wyldwoods and can also be shot off the table turn one by some armies, but that's part of the risk you take with all high value units.  

The main issue, as I see it, is that it means fewer points for other units to help with objective-scoring, which is how you win games.  Whether the trade-off is worth it really depends on your play-style and strategy.

I will get the model and give it a go, but what I really want to try is two Mountain Spirits.  

Fair enough I just think that you are not getting enough out of him for his points

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Elves are the best said:

Its a 660 point model with a 4+ save

If I'm correct, you can put him on 2+ save using two Aetherquarz in Syar for a whole shooting phase and if he survives, he has a massive impact in the game. 

I only saw 2 games against Luminet but it was a bit hard to play against him (withot using any Coggs-like exploit)

Edited by Beliman

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I think Teclis is in a weird position as a god level character.  He’s very vulnerable to be shot off the table T1-2 like Alarielle in certain matchups and certainly won’t be winning or surviving any big combats like her. He also doesn’t have the huge level of protection that Nagash and Archeon have but offers a very potent magic phase and general support in return. He has a defined role that he does well.

In comparison the only god model points wise we can compare Teclis to is Alarielle who is a jack of all trades master of none character whose magic, shooting and combat is well below the standard but offers huge variety in support summoning.  

Does this mean Teclis is overcosted abilities wise and Alarielle is undercosted since you are basically paying a premium for her summoning variety at the cost of her other abilities being average? 

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26 minutes ago, Incineroar87 said:

I think Teclis is in a weird position as a god level character.  He’s very vulnerable to be shot off the table T1-2 like Alarielle in certain matchups and certainly won’t be winning or surviving any big combats like her. He also doesn’t have the huge level of protection that Nagash and Archeon have but offers a very potent magic phase and general support in return. He has a defined role that he does well.

In comparison the only god model points wise we can compare Teclis to is Alarielle who is a jack of all trades master of none character whose magic, shooting and combat is well below the standard but offers huge variety in support summoning.  

Does this mean Teclis is overcosted abilities wise and Alarielle is undercosted since you are basically paying a premium for her summoning variety at the cost of her other abilities being average? 

I think the problem is that anything worth sinking 600+ points into typically needs to be highly survivable to be worth it, and that is basically only Archaeon and Nagash that fulfil that. Its also that Alarielle brackets so her efficiency starts dropping really fast when she takes damage (even if she survives). So when you pay for a monster you dont really just pay for the unwounded profile. Teclis has the advantage that he doesnt really bracket (or rather the stuff that matters dont - i.e he still can give out his 5+ ward through spell and his spellcasting also stays). On other hand he is arguably quite much more expensive than Arielle who brings 200pts of units with her. I mainly think the comparison to Alarielle is interesting only from a survivability perspective, i.e. Internet has been raging for a long time about how fragile she is so just pointing out that Teclis is actually quite similar..

On the matter of actually including Teclis, what would you gusy think about something like:

Teclis

Cathallar

30+20 warden

2x10 sentinel

5 Dawnriders

Auralan Legion

Rune of petrification (or other ES, total of 70pts)

 

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Although I haven't got my hands on some Lumineth models (not interested in the big box, will wait for the next wave of releases), I've been working on my 3D printed elves obelisk on a base of floating rocks. I've tweaked the design and have been doing some test prints. 

YMMY8uYl.jpg p8Fry1Tl.jpg

If you like it, you can actually get one yourself:). I've set up an Etsy shop (Elfhead3D) because several people expressed some interest.

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1 hour ago, Beliman said:

If I'm correct, you can put him on 2+ save using two Aetherquarz in Syar for a whole shooting phase and if he survives, he has a massive impact in the game. 

I only saw 2 games against Luminet but it was a bit hard to play against him (withot using any Coggs-like exploit)

Can Syar double up a single unit in the same phase like that? It seems feasible, but I can also see counter-arguments. That said, if it works, that not only makes Syar more viable than I thought, but also helps Teclis out quite a bit against long range early game stuff. 

What I'd really be curious to know is if the Sanctum fits around Teclis. Being able to put up a quick safeguard that sticks around would be aces for him. Could also look into Pallisade to hide from shooting. 

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22 hours ago, Chumphammer said:

So played two games with my LrL now (one loss vs cities, one win vs Mixed Death) and some things I have noted about the units so far (as I have run a mix of everything, list below)

I am running:
Zaitrec
Light of Eltharion
Stonemage (General) Fast learner, Gift of Celennar
Cathallar: Silverwand
30 Wardens
10 Wardens
2 x 10 Sentinels
5 Dawnriders
5 Stoneguard
Avalenor
Legion
Twinstones


My breakdown so far:

Zaitrec: the +1 magic is really useful, but so far I haven’t had much chance to use their unique spell as I have other stuff I want to cast, plus the artifact/trait is meh. Might look at alt options

Light of Eltharion: very average so far. He died game 1 turn 3 to some demigryphs, and was shot off turn 1 game 2. His bubble is good for bravery, but without a better than 5+ FNP I find him to  be pretty easy to deal with. Might replace

Stonemage: lived both games, and taking assault of stone spell is useful. Main reason he is there is to support Avalenor

Cathallar: my main spell caster usually throwing out Eclipse and Protection. The battle shock ability has been good so far. Definitely a keeper.

Wardens: Love them. Yeah, they can be slowish as you don’t want to run/charge them unless you need to. With Ethereal/Protection and Legion on they can be pretty tanky. Good damage output also.

Sentinels: Good support and snipes like everyone expected. I might need more than 2x10

Dawnriders: not had much chance to shine. Died turn one both games

Stoneguard: Actually, been pretty useful. Though 4 mov, you can run them at least. With Avalenor giving them +1 attack they can be great support for 100pts. Might change my unit to 10

Avalenor: has been a mixed bag, but mainly due to my ****** dice rolls with him. Game one he soaked a lot of shooting attention and game 2 he did well enough.

Twinstones: great for the points and stable to my lists now.


SO, what next?

I will probably keep the same list for another game or 2 to see learn the army more, but I kinda might drop Eltharion and then boost 5 stoneguard to 10, and the 5 Dawnriders to 10.

I am surprised to hear you didn’t like ziatec too much, as they seem like they have the most useful alliegence ability outside of ymetrica. It is pretty much the one ability everyone can use consistently every turn, and which can effect every turn of the game. I also think that overwhelming heat is a nice option, but I don’t think it’s the main draw of this army.

how do you feel about Avelorn’s -1 to hit aura?

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59 minutes ago, Requizen said:

Can Syar double up a single unit in the same phase like that? It seems feasible, but I can also see counter-arguments. That said, if it works, that not only makes Syar more viable than I thought, but also helps Teclis out quite a bit against long range early game stuff. 

What I'd really be curious to know is if the Sanctum fits around Teclis. Being able to put up a quick safeguard that sticks around would be aces for him. Could also look into Pallisade to hide from shooting. 

if you can put sanctum on him that ofc greatly increases his survivability but I highly doubt it's the case unfortunately 

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I'm thinking the Sanctum will work well with the Stonemage.  It will help with his survivability and increase his buff bubble allowing Stoneguard or Mountain spirits to be more spread out.

I also have a question about the Cathallar;  Can they absorb the -1 to bravery if there is no enemy unit within 18" or do they have to be able to pass it to the enemy for it to work?  I'm finding the wording a little unclear on this; It could be interpreted either way.

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4 hours ago, elfhead said:

Although I haven't got my hands on some Lumineth models (not interested in the big box, will wait for the next wave of releases), I've been working on my 3D printed elves obelisk on a base of floating rocks. I've tweaked the design and have been doing some test prints. 

YMMY8uYl.jpg p8Fry1Tl.jpg

If you like it, you can actually get one yourself:). I've set up an Etsy shop (Elfhead3D) because several people expressed some interest.

OOO this looks cool. Ill pick up the stl so I can make some

Awesome job

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3 hours ago, Acid_Nine said:

I am surprised to hear you didn’t like ziatec too much, as they seem like they have the most useful alliegence ability outside of ymetrica. It is pretty much the one ability everyone can use consistently every turn, and which can effect every turn of the game. I also think that overwhelming heat is a nice option, but I don’t think it’s the main draw of this army.

how do you feel about Avelorn’s -1 to hit aura?

I mean Zaitrec is fine, and I will probably end up still using it. Its just a same that the Artifact sucks unless you have Teclis, and most of the time the Zaitrec ability is overkill. 

I like his -1 pretty much always within 12 (with stonemage) as if you can push him into a good position you can affect a lot of enemy ranged as well as combat. Tbh I have been treating it as a big stompy push forwards model, when tbh its probably something best placed inside a unit to add punch/buffs. 

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9 hours ago, Fellman said:

Way is teclis a trap? Genuine question

As others have said, but basically he lets you dominate 1 phase, but thats it. 

He has 1 main damage spell, and is a support hero. But 16W with only a 4+ save (yes yes, you can buff it for 1 maybe 2 turns) and maybe a 5+ FNP if you get it off before they can get to him, isnt great. He is so squishy for 660pts and isnt very good in combat

Yes, he can work, if you build your army into a 2 drop protection/support bubble for him, but in an age where magic/ranged is huge and Objs are really important, you wont really have the bodies to spare chasing objectives if you are keeping him defended.

You can still get Eclipse and Protection off without him

He can be really good. He can win games and hell in a good players hands he can win a tournament. But im my opinion he is too much of a risk. People just latch onto his amazing power at magic dominance 

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4 hours ago, elfhead said:

Although I haven't got my hands on some Lumineth models (not interested in the big box, will wait for the next wave of releases), I've been working on my 3D printed elves obelisk on a base of floating rocks. I've tweaked the design and have been doing some test prints. 

YMMY8uYl.jpg p8Fry1Tl.jpg

If you like it, you can actually get one yourself:). I've set up an Etsy shop (Elfhead3D) because several people expressed some interest.

Could you send a link? I am too stupid to find it 

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22 hours ago, woolf said:

yep agree something "boring" like that can probably be pretty strong. what do you think about the sanctum endless spell btw? to protect Cathallar?

Hmm, Sanctum.

Pro:
only 30 pts
treated as one model so stops things getting too close 
+1 AS and -1 to hit
Can throw mortal wounds onto near enemy units 

Cons:
doesn't move (the big one for me)
Doesn't do anything vs spells

I think it can work well with a Alarith list where the stonemage needs to stay near your MegaMoos as you can drop it turn 2 and just stay in the spot

I usually run my Cathallar inside my block of 30 Wardens, so wouldnt be useful for me.

I might try it at some point, but if I had the spare 30-40 pts i would rather have Shackles or Pallisade 


 

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8 minutes ago, Chumphammer said:

Hmm, Sanctum.

Pro:
only 30 pts
treated as one model so stops things getting too close 
+1 AS and -1 to hit
Can throw mortal wounds onto near enemy units 

Cons:
doesn't move (the big one for me)
Doesn't do anything vs spells

I think it can work well with a Alarith list where the stonemage needs to stay near your MegaMoos as you can drop it turn 2 and just stay in the spot

I usually run my Cathallar inside my block of 30 Wardens, so wouldnt be useful for me.

I might try it at some point, but if I had the spare 30-40 pts i would rather have Shackles or Pallisade 


 

are you sure its stationary? I thought it became part if the model and would move with the wizard?

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43 minutes ago, woolf said:

are you sure its stationary? I thought it became part if the model and would move with the wizard?

Hmm, yeah I suppose it it makes you one model it might work like that. I didnt think that was the case 

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First test model completed, was too lazy to think of a new scheme so used the same from my 40k space marines. I think it works well for lumineth though.

0B017AD0-B4C1-483A-B34D-7794FE86E400.jpeg.3b72df0b6b8ce4c6287996b01572c88d.jpegE7F059BE-9D85-482F-B926-17E0CFFC51B2.jpeg.ecd6f276f9f661f57ee7df48f7335c32.jpeg

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4 hours ago, Chumphammer said:

As others have said, but basically he lets you dominate 1 phase, but thats it. 

He has 1 main damage spell, and is a support hero. But 16W with only a 4+ save (yes yes, you can buff it for 1 maybe 2 turns) and maybe a 5+ FNP if you get it off before they can get to him, isnt great. He is so squishy for 660pts and isnt very good in combat

Yes, he can work, if you build your army into a 2 drop protection/support bubble for him, but in an age where magic/ranged is huge and Objs are really important, you wont really have the bodies to spare chasing objectives if you are keeping him defended.

You can still get Eclipse and Protection off without him

He can be really good. He can win games and hell in a good players hands he can win a tournament. But im my opinion he is too much of a risk. People just latch onto his amazing power at magic dominance 

Reading through the posts here (not specifically yours), it looks more like many people are underestimating his usefulness to me (there was even someone who wrote he is useless if he can’t cast 4 spells in T1). 

Having a lot of points in one relatively squishy model is inherently risky, but many people write as if all opponents are going to be able to out-drop you and kill him in T1. Some will be, and at least for some time when tournaments start again it’s likely you’ll see relatively many shooting-heavy armies, because those will also be useful against other armies which are doing good right now. On the other hand, some of the shooting might not be as good anymore once we have all the point adjustments (salamanders, flammers). 

But without Teclis, you rely a lot on 5+/5W Wizards which are at least as easily killed by the same shooting armies - and won’t offer your army nearly as much protection against magic and mortal wounds. His 4+ ignore magic bubble, plus his 5+ Ward and auto-unbind will make any opponent think twice about even attempting to cast any damaging spells on a large junk of you army at the start of the game.

Teclis also helps with casting PoH more reliantly for several units in range. I think this is really important for your Sentinels at the start, to either kill some key models, or bracket possible high damage threats. You mentioned that the +1 of Zaitrec to casting was really useful, with Teclis you’d have a +2 (or the same, plus 2 Aetherquartz or whatever, or even +3 or more with the Stones).

That’s why I also have my doubts about how comparable Teclis and Alarielle are, because they are in complete different armies after all. As a Lumineth player - if you get T1 you can already work on making Teclis safer by attacking threats to him with your sentinels. After you put 6 MW on a Mortek Crawler or many other units, they will be less of a threat to Teclis. That’s much more difficult to pull off with the Sylvaneth. 

Teclis is also one of the few models we have that actually has a good movement range (and can fly). If you can keep him alive, that’s also helpful. He isn’t strong in combat, but should be able to kill smaller guardian units on objects later in the game between his ranged attack, Searing White Light (and if necessary he could do 4 damaging spells), and his melee attacks. 

And the time your opponent spends on trying to kill him, he wont be focused on your Cathallar/Stonemage and sentinels. Teclis could also be a trap for your opponent. 

I agree though with your point about objects, looking at the new maps, having few units and bodies on the board will be even more a problem than right now in most cases (but on some maps he might be good with his big base and giving extra points).

In the end, it’s great that it doesn’t look like Teclis is an auto-include, and we will also see more Alarith-centered builds once those models are out. That makes it less likely there are many opponents who specifically will build armies to counter Teclis, and more options for us to play in a variety of ways. 

I’ll try him out, expecting to lose several games at first. His abilities just look too much fun to not give it a shot, at least for me personally.

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12 hours ago, Aelfric said:

I also have a question about the Cathallar;  Can they absorb the -1 to bravery if there is no enemy unit within 18" or do they have to be able to pass it to the enemy for it to work?  I'm finding the wording a little unclear on this; It could be interpreted either way.

Im pretty sure you can negate the neg 1 to your own unit even if you cant pass it on to an enemy unit. Its written like two distinct effects i.e. 1) negate the neg to you and 2) you can pick an enemy and if you do, you can give it neg 1 to bravery. and 1 does not seem to be conditional on 2 going through

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