Aos 2 - Lumineth Realm-Lords Discussion

[woolf]

8 minutes ago, Sleepers said:

The only other two considerations is buffing bigger units gives more benefit, but the only real buff in reality to give them would be speed.. all our other buffs are actually rebuffs to the enemy in the form of minus to hit etc. and bigger units can take more losses before losing shining company and the wizard status.

yep agree, I think aetherquartz might be a consideration in that regard since its restricted to 1 unit/phase (at least outside Syar).

[Falkman]

3 hours ago, Sleepers said:

The only other two considerations is buffing bigger units gives more benefit, but the only real buff in reality to give them would be speed.. all our other buffs are actually rebuffs to the enemy in the form of minus to hit etc. and bigger units can take more losses before losing shining company and the wizard status.

Don't forget all the basic command abilities, they all work better on bigger units as well.

Edited July 10, 2020 by Falkman

[Abraxxis]

So guys - how do you think we go about effectively adding in a Teclis at 1250 to an escalation league?

List/build suggestions are much appreciated!

[John Edwards]

1 hour ago, Abraxxis said:

So guys - how do you think we go about effectively adding in a Teclis at 1250 to an escalation league?

List/build suggestions are much appreciated!

Perhaps something like:

Teclis			660
Cathallar		140	General, Gift of Celennar, Overwhelming Heat, Ethereal Blessing, Solar Flare
Wardens		x10	120	Battleline, Overwhelming Heat, Ethereal Blessing
Dawnriders	x5	130	Battleline*, Overwhelming Heat, Speed of Hysh
Dawnriders	x5	130	Overwhelming Heat, Speed of Hysh
Rune of Petrification	70
Zaitrec
			1250

Zaitrec selected for synergy with Gift of Celennar and Aura of Celennar. I think Teclis leaves you short of units at this game size, taking and holding objectives may be difficult.

My work in progress list without Teclis for comparison:

Cathallar		140	General, Gift of Celennar, Overwhelming Heat, Ethereal Blessing, Protection of Hysh
Stonemage		130	Voice of the Mountain
Light of Eltharion	220
Wardens		x10	120	Battleline, Overwhelming Heat, Solar Flare
Wardens		x10	120	Battleline, Overwhelming Heat, Protection of Hysh
Sentinels	x10	140	Overwhelming Heat, Total Eclipse
Dawnriders	x10	260	Overwhelming Heat, Speed of Hysh
Hyshian Twin Stones	30
Rune of Petrification	70
Zaitrec
			1230

 

Edited July 10, 2020 by John Edwards

[ArchaicArc]

1 hour ago, John Edwards said:

Perhaps something like:

Teclis			660
Cathallar		140	General, Gift of Celennar, Overwhelming Heat, Ethereal Blessing, Solar Flare
Wardens		x10	120	Battleline, Overwhelming Heat, Ethereal Blessing
Dawnriders	x5	130	Battleline*, Overwhelming Heat, Speed of Hysh
Dawnriders	x5	130	Overwhelming Heat, Speed of Hysh
Rune of Petrification	70
Zaitrec
			1250

Zaitrec selected for synergy with Gift of Celennar and Aura of Celennar. I think Teclis leaves you short of units at this game size, taking and holding objectives may be difficult.

My work in progress list without Teclis for comparison:

Cathallar		140	General, Gift of Celennar, Overwhelming Heat, Ethereal Blessing, Protection of Hysh
Stonemage		130	Voice of the Mountain
Light of Eltharion	220
Wardens		x10	120	Battleline, Overwhelming Heat, Solar Flare
Wardens		x10	120	Battleline, Overwhelming Heat, Protection of Hysh
Sentinels	x10	140	Overwhelming Heat, Total Eclipse
Dawnriders	x10	260	Overwhelming Heat, Speed of Hysh
Hyshian Twin Stones	30
Rune of Petrification	70
Zaitrec
			1230

 

Somebody really wants  overwhelming heat to happen... I’d recommend having at least one back up speed of Hysh because that board movement, when you need it, you will REALLY need it.

[John Edwards]

11 minutes ago, ArchaicArc said:

Somebody really wants  overwhelming heat to happen... I’d recommend having at least one back up speed of Hysh because that board movement, when you need it, you will REALLY need it.

You have to take overwhelming heat as Zaitrec 😛

[TeclisGod]

The more I have discussions with others and the more games people have gotten in with their (proxy) Lumineth the more things start to change in the ideas of list building. This was definitely a thing most/all of us saw coming as text in a book can only mean so much. From what I remember during first discussions was that Teclis was mostly and auto include and that Syar was the best of all Nations (competitively speaking). Now it seems to be tested around Zaitrec with Teclis not always being an auto include. He is a huge center piece in points value that in the end having more models (bodies) tends to be a little more competitive. This is all according to building a 2000 point list.  With this being said I am curious on what everyone's thoughts are on playing them or not and how it has progressed since the release of the battletome.

[Chumphammer]

Wip on the Wardens. Still got the Corax Trim to do and then shade/tidy

Getting my 1st game on Saturday in months and first with lrl. Playing Citites

[Prince Tûrion Rilyalöce]

7 hours ago, Falkman said:

Don't forget all the basic command abilities, they all work better on bigger units as well.

 

10 hours ago, Sleepers said:

The only other two considerations is buffing bigger units gives more benefit, but the only real buff in reality to give them would be speed.. all our other buffs are actually rebuffs to the enemy in the form of minus to hit etc. and bigger units can take more losses before losing shining company and the wizard status.

Good points. From what I can see just generally.

Syar helps bigger units with the double aetherquartz 

Iliatha helps MSU by conferring command traits to more than one unit. 

Ymetrica is Mountain centric

Zaitrec is magic overload 

 

 

[Tiger]

The heads of the sisters seem to fit nicely.

[Nighthaunt Noob]

What are peoples' thoughts on casting spells with Vanari units that aren't Power of Hysh? Initially I was really stoked at the flexibility of having so many spell choices built into the army but as I continue to think about it I find myself asking questions like "wait a second when would I ever want to cast a spell with my Sentinels that isn't Power of Hysh?" Or "do I really want to have my Dawnriders cast Speed of Hysh if they're gonna be running into a fight without their sunmetal lances powered up?"

[Acid_Nine]

38 minutes ago, Nighthaunt Noob said:

What are peoples' thoughts on casting spells with Vanari units that aren't Power of Hysh? Initially I was really stoked at the flexibility of having so many spell choices built into the army but as I continue to think about it I find myself asking questions like "wait a second when would I ever want to cast a spell with my Sentinels that isn't Power of Hysh?" Or "do I really want to have my Dawnriders cast Speed of Hysh if they're gonna be running into a fight without their sunmetal lances powered up?"

Do you say this line often:

 

”I wanna go fast but I wanna stab things really good!”

Hi, Acid Nine here, and I am here to tell you that your days of spell worrying are over. Thanks to the wonders of Teclian magic, we now can offer you the wonder that is Hyshian’s choice brand^tm Aetherquartz pills.

 

yes, you heard that right! Not only does it make you hit things better or helps you dodge out of the way of a charging beastman, it allows us to cast two, I repeat, two spells in one turn! No more mind bending decisions mid-battle on if you wanna have swords bouncing off your ethereally blessed armor or powering up your spear tip. You can do both with just one pop of this magical substance! wanna toast a Dawi from the inside out after after you just galloped a mile in under 40 seconds? No problem! just pop one magic little Aetherquartz pill and you’re slinging spells around like the Archmage himself!* 

 

All these effects can be your’s for just one down payment of your emotional stability! Order now and receive access to our  Cathallar Counseling hotline, which can take those roaring emotions and throw it all right into that Bonereaper’s stupid face. It’s not like you were using them anyways! Cry some more, Nagash! 

But wait, there’s more! If you order now, you can get a bottle  of Our extra large aetherquartz pills  absolutely free of charge! That’s right, you get twice the number of aetherquartz pills in the same order!**

 

so come on down to your local Tor Wallmuni pharmacy today, to pick up this once in a lifetime offer! Remember, Hysishian’s choice is not light on value!

 

*claim not verified by creators of Hyshian’s choice

**offer only valid in the great paradise of Syar.

[Nighthaunt Noob]

41 minutes ago, Acid_Nine said:

Do you say this line often:

 

”I wanna go fast but I wanna stab things really good!”

Hi, Acid Nine here, and I am here to tell you that your days of spell worrying are over. Thanks to the wonders of Teclian magic, we now can offer you the wonder that is Hyshian’s choice brand^tm Aetherquartz pills.

 

yes, you heard that right! Not only does it make you hit things better or helps you dodge out of the way of a charging beastman, it allows us to cast two, I repeat, two spells in one turn! No more mind bending decisions mid-battle on if you wanna have swords bouncing off your ethereally blessed armor or powering up your spear tip. You can do both with just one pop of this magical substance! wanna toast a Dawi from the inside out after after you just galloped a mile in under 40 seconds? No problem! just pop one magic little Aetherquartz pill and you’re slinging spells around like the Archmage himself!* 

 

All these effects can be your’s for just one down payment of your emotional stability! Order now and receive access to our  Cathallar Counseling hotline, which can take those roaring emotions and throw it all right into that Bonereaper’s stupid face. It’s not like you were using them anyways! Cry some more, Nagash! 

But wait, there’s more! If you order now, you can get a bottle  of Our extra large aetherquartz pills  absolutely free of charge! That’s right, you get twice the number of aetherquartz pills in the same order!**

 

so come on down to your local Tor Wallmuni pharmacy today, to pick up this once in a lifetime offer! Remember, Hysishian’s choice is not light on value!

 

*claim not verified by creators of Hyshian’s choice

**offer only valid in the great paradise of Syar.

lol nicely done. Definitely a good option that I totally forgot about, but it certainly has its limits still with 1 per phase.

[LuminethMage]

Although Acid lived up to his name, and gave good advice, there will always be times you want to cast something else. Some examples:

- Must capture/hold an object, block something, get someone into combat (speed of light). In your example above you might not want to cast it with the Dawnriders, but on the Dawnriders with a Warden unit that won’t see combat that turn (or it’s just less important than getting to your goal) to make sure to kill something on the other side of the table.

- Survival of a unit is more important than causing more damage (ethereal)

- You might do way more damage using this than Power of Hysh (lambert light). For example having this on a 5 Dawnrider or 10 Warden unit. 

- This spell will help you way more or hinder your opponent much more than one Power of Hysh (generally or situationally): Total Eclipse, Protection of Hysh, Solar Flare 

In many cases Power of a Hysh will be the to-go spell of course. But a big part of the Lumineth versatility and adaptability lies in their spells. Besides how and when to use Aetherquartz, one of the things which will make a really good Lumineth player will be using the other spells at the right time. This will also be a big part of our “oh I should have done x instead of y” when we lose winnable matches. 

If you are not using Teclis, a lot of your spell potential is going to be in 5 wound 5+ save heroes, so it’s always good to have a back-up in case those are dead after T1. 

[whispersofblood]

I have two main worries for this faction. The first is that there is going to be a massive divergence of results from players in the field once games come back. People who are great at this game are going to do horrible things this army. Those who aren't great are going to struggle There are many examples of branched decision making even at the build stage where you have varying degrees of correctness. 

For example Iliatha is probably the lowest rated Great Nation at the moment, but a person who is talented with MSU could quite frankly be a terrifying opponent. There exists the options in this book to almost always control the game in almost every circumstance. But not a lot of it is obvious, and worse its not always obvious when to use these things. 

My worry is this faction becomes highly divisive in the community, but hopefully people see the faction for what it is in time.  

[Incineroar87]

I know Syar and Zaitrec are attracting all competitive attention at current, do you think Ymetica and the Alarith support will also be viable on the table despite Stoneguard being few in number ? Stoneguard + Stoneheart King + Stone Mages backed by a few Wardens or Sentinels could be quite solid.  Our Shooting seems to be the best way to complete the durable but slow movement of the Alarith.

[Jaskier]

Ignoring Rend -2 and having numerous sources of -1 to-hit can entirely negate the numerical disadvantage of playing an Alarith-themed list depending on your opponent - i.e. Vanguard Raptor/Shootcast lists - or be inconsequential against others - i.e. Plague Monks and Daughters of Khaine. I think it's certainly viable as a meta-buster type list. 

[ObsidianCrane]

Having gone thropugh the GHB 2020 today I'm feeling like we have a lot of answers for the general structure of Objective play. You will have to play the objectives, but it looks like we have a good capacity to do just that.

Ymetrica seems to be the least competitive of the GNs for the current environment set up by the GHB2020. Though I can see them performing well in the Meeting Engagement format where their low(er) cost for battleline and the smaller table size over comes some of their issues.

Not sure that Iliatha needs to be built around MSU based strategies, though I understand how MSU benefits from it. That said looking at the batteplans I wonder if larger units of sentinels screened by small units of wardens isn't a better base for them.

[Clan's Cynic]

To those it may interest, Duncan Rhodes' latest tutorial on his website is for a Ymetrican Warden.

Edited July 13, 2020 by Clan's Cynic

[Acid_Nine]

anyone able to create a hero with the new anvil of Apotheosis rules? my book and paint havn't come out yet...

[Stormy1486]

I must say this has been one of the more complicated armies to plan a list around.

I'm a medium gamer, more model focused player these days. So creating a standard (2k) list I wanted Teclis and Avelenor in there.

Oh dear half my points.

I had the same problems with Slyvaneth (i wanted allarielle and drycha straight away).

So building the list now I'm thinking.

Zaietrc (super reliable casting)

Teclis

Avenalor

1 x stonemage

20 x wardens

10 x wardens

20 x sentinels

10 x stoneguard

1990

 The general idea is.

- synergy between alarith units, becoming significant anvils OR hammers using spells and well timed aetherquartz. Both stoneguard and aveenlor can do a lot of damage, however will struggle to get to choose their own combats due to speed. I feel that I need reliable damage units though, who benefit greatly from buffs but don't exclusively require them.

- 20 wardens to hold a backline objective/protect teclis and casts spells on avelenor/sentinels when not needing Hysh. With some buffs they should be able to hold their own until help arrives, with the exception of the scariest units.

- 10 wardens to screen whoever needs it (they will def die) and cast spells. I need them to boost battleline.

- 20 sentinels to snipe key characters or put mortal wounds on critical targets. If you buff them correctly (hysh and rerolls to hit from teclis) you are hopefully putting on 10 mortal wounds on a target within 30" and reducing their effectiveness. 

- teclis will buff and act as a swiss army knife, utilising well timed spells/shooting attack to help dictate battle.

The biggest flaw of my list is significant lack of speed. I'm hoping with speed of hysh, magic and aggressive positioning I can capture objectives or eliminate units at the enemies backline IF they are small units (arkanunts, small dryad units etc). However I am very reliant on teclis to do specific damage with his spells, ranged attack and i hate to say it will probably need to see some combat, taking advantage of his speed and mount.

I literally have no answer if someone wants to stick a million mortek guard/hearthstone beserkers on a backline objective.

I basically decided to include a relatively reliable unit for damage (stoneguard) at the expense of dawnriders.

Not sure how it will go, its a hard compromise between a list filled with great models, but that won't get rolled over completely. I really don't have a lot of answers for eel spam, hearthguard and mortek spam or flamer spam but oh well.

Open to some suggestions, but I feel this is a conpromise I can live with.

In a different world, I wouldn't take teclis (except I love painting big centre pieces, levidadon, morthai, stardrake) and that would free up points for dawn riders, alarith, and multiple units of stoneguard but also removing sentinels and going alarith instead of zaitrec. Right now it seems you can go all varani, all alarith, or in my case a weird hybrid which will struggle with speed.

Edited July 14, 2020 by Stormy1486

[Koradrel of Chrace]

That lack of speed is the thing that really gets me.  Every list I've tried to build almost always starts off with a unit of 10 Dawnriders.  I think they're utility to put pressure on the enemy is just too unique and necessary.

[Sleepers]

For those interested in how my test model came out.. base is unfinished.

[LuminethMage]

6 hours ago, Acid_Nine said:

anyone able to create a hero with the new anvil of Apotheosis rules? my book and paint havn't come out yet...

Yes, you can create a hero. There is a limit to what you can do, because you can’t assign sub-faction like the Great Nations, but you can make heroes with mounts, different weapon options etc. 

Quite a lot of variety. 
 

@Stormy1486 Looks quite good. I wouldn’t get too worked up if this doesn’t function right from the start - the Lumineth have a lot to think about.  But sound like a good army if you want these big center pieces in it. And if you see you need more mobility you could drop 5 Stoneguard and change Avalenor to the Spirit and put in 5 Dawnriders. Easy to change a few things without giving up on the two center pieces. 

Edited July 14, 2020 by LuminethMage

[Aelfric]

2 hours ago, LuminethMage said:

There is a limit to what you can do, because you can’t assign sub-faction like the Great Nations,

Why not?  If you pick Aelf, then you can pick  the "Lumineth Realm-Lord" keyword.  When you choose a Great Nation, all Lumineth Realm-Lord units gain that keyword.  So, as far as I can see, your Apotheosis hero can be in a Great Nation.