Aos 2 - Lumineth Realm-Lords Discussion

[Duke of Mousillon]

3 minutes ago, texhnology said:

I'm soo soo disappointed with this release

Feels like I've been waiting for Aelves a very long time, and when they announced Lumineth I was really excited to finally get to play an elven faction!
But after seeing the choices in the book I'm really disappointed.

The unit choices and variety is abysmal, the character choices and variety is also abysmal, there isn't even a single common fighting hero!
It's like there is no actual no choices at all in the book. I don't think I've seen this week a release in a long time when it comes to actually no named army choices!

So even if I like the models, this release seems to be a huge letdown

I feel you. I was hyped when I saw Pikes and Silverhelms and Bowmen. I mean. I really dont like the cowhelmet dudes but whatever. Whoever likes them good for them. I want my White Lions back. Nevertheless after that it was like hot air. Nothing came anymore. Oh we got... 2 generic lords. both level 1 utility casters. Not necessarily the same yet similar. The 3 units that got me hyped are now without weapon options too. So. Yeah it was all a big start but. everything was at the start thats why it was big. nothing came afterwards. I am still contemplaiting if I really wanna start this army or not. With tomorrow coming close idk if I should buy the box set or not.

[LuminethMage]

@swarmofseals Concerning the spell selection for the wizard units, in the “Lore of Hysh” it says that these spells can be taken by Vanari Zauberer (Vanari Wizards). In each of the three Vanari unit warscrolls it says under the Magic section “The Steedmaster/High Sentinel/High Warden of this unit is a Wizard” (Der Steedmaster dieser Einheit ist ein Zauberer). It’s exactly the same wording they use for the hero Wizards. (It can attempt to cast 1 spell in your hero phase and attempt to unbind 1 spell in the next hero phase). 

The difference is that it’s followed by the restriction “as long as the unit contains 3/5 or more models”, which hero wizards of course don’t have. And they can’t use Arcane Bolt and Mystic Shield. The only spell mentioned there is Power of Hysh. But crucially, it doesn’t say that they can only cast Power of Hysh, like for example with the Kairic Acolytes, where it’s specifically mentioned on the warscroll that they can’t cast anything besides Gestalt Sorcery. Power of Hysh can be cast by any number of Wizards who know the spell. 

But there are no other restrictions, and there are no other Vanari Wizards besides them. So I’m sure they must be able to chose a spell from the Lore of Hysh, the Zaitrec spell if you use that sub faction, and other similar additional spells like realm spells. 

[swarmofseals]

@LuminethMage & @Falkman yeah that definitely does sound more promising and ups the magic quite a bit. Who all can access the stone lore?

[LuminethMage]

Right now only Teclis and the Stonemage. 

[madmac]

40 minutes ago, Duke of Mousillon said:

I feel you. I was hyped when I saw Pikes and Silverhelms and Bowmen. I mean. I really dont like the cowhelmet dudes but whatever. Whoever likes them good for them. I want my White Lions back. Nevertheless after that it was like hot air. Nothing came anymore. Oh we got... 2 generic lords. both level 1 utility casters. Not necessarily the same yet similar. The 3 units that got me hyped are now without weapon options too. So. Yeah it was all a big start but. everything was at the start thats why it was big. nothing came afterwards. I am still contemplaiting if I really wanna start this army or not. With tomorrow coming close idk if I should buy the box set or not.

That's a pretty good summation. In retrospect, the "initial" reveal was half of the army release already. After that was the Stonemage and the Sentinels, and by the time of the controversial "cow" reveal there was honestly nothing really left to show, despite that exact reveal being the one talking about how they got excited and made too many models, and we were all just dipping our toes into the full army, ect, ect.

It's been a strange rollout with strange marketing all around, even without circumstances causing the release of this weirdly small army to be dragged out half a year or more.

 

Edited June 19, 2020 by madmac

[Siegfried VII]

I think they made Tyrion and the other elements too but decided to cut them in half to make too "major releases'.. As it is the army really feels like half of something in my opinion..

[Rhetoric]

What time in the US will the pre-order go live?  I’m in EST.  

[swarmofseals]

51 minutes ago, Siegfried VII said:

I think they made Tyrion and the other elements too but decided to cut them in half to make too "major releases'.. As it is the army really feels like half of something in my opinion..

I hope this is true, but so far we haven't seen any AOS armies get expanded beyond their initial release except SCE. And with today's announcement that the rest of the army (ie: the stuff we know about that isn't in the army box) coming "later this year") that makes me less hopeful that there will be a second wave of LRL releases any time in the foreseeable future. I wouldn't be surprised to see it happen in a couple of years, but the prospect of waiting that long for the army to get fleshed out (and waiting for maybe months to even get the kits we know about) has me contemplating canceling my planned preorder.

[LuminethMage]

22 minutes ago, Rhetoric said:

What time in the US will the pre-order go live?  I’m in EST.  

It looks like it’s around 10am for US time zones.  It there is a lot of conflicting info around. You can check the Facebook posts when they announced the box. A lot of people asked and the official reply can be summed up to around “10am In many time zones, but not all, please check the page regularly.” For me the stress starts in one hour, could be any time from 10am to 2am on the next day. 

[Siegfried VII]

14 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

I hope this is true, but so far we haven't seen any AOS armies get expanded beyond their initial release except SCE. And with today's announcement that the rest of the army (ie: the stuff we know about that isn't in the army box) coming "later this year") that makes me less hopeful that there will be a second wave of LRL releases any time in the foreseeable future. I wouldn't be surprised to see it happen in a couple of years, but the prospect of waiting that long for the army to get fleshed out (and waiting for maybe months to even get the kits we know about) has me contemplating canceling my planned preorder.

I hear you mate and I agree.. The thought of waiting more months infuriates me especially for such a small range of models and yes it will be quite some time before we see the Tyrion side of things.. But unless there is a second wave the statements of Phil Kelly in the preview show they did some time ago that they made a huge range and that they scratched the surface would make him look like insane with this Ironjawz/Fyreslaysers in terms of models/warscrolls army release we got..

[scrubyandwells]

5 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

I'd be full on shocked if Lumineth are S tier and really surprised if they are A tier. My best bet is that they are a middling B, but I wouldn't be surprised if they are C tier. Again, I could very well be mistaken if I'm interpreting the rules incorrectly -- but this is my first impression.

We'll see...generally, though, I wish we would focus first on the health of the overall ecosystem, and assess books from that standpoint. From that POV, I think we want books to fall in the "fat middle" — 40%-60% win rate, ideally 45%-55%, while knowing that win rate stats have inherent limitations.

Many of the examples given (e.g., Kroak, Nagash, Mortek Guard, Hearthguard), are generally components of builds that are either outside, or the upper bound, of what's "healthy" for the overall environment. I think we want those types of components brought within, or further within, the margins.

It just seems more fruitful to assess battletomes through an egalitarian/healthy ecosystem lens, rather than assessing it in relation to its present, over-performing elements, e.g., Kroak/Salamanders/bound endless spells; Horrors/Flamers/Changehost/etc.; Legion of Chaos Ascendant (summoning Horrors every turn on 9+/10+ on 3 dice; Petrifex Elite/Mortek Guard/Nagash; Hearthguard Berzerkers; arguably IDK; arguably Hallowheart; etc.

A recent example of this was the new KO book. When it came out, quite a few were expressing that it was terrible from a competitive POV; but most folks weren't viewing that book through the "fat middle" lens. If you look at it from that end of the stick, we're fortunate. In terms of overall strength, the book is generally where it should be, especially relative to certain elements in Seraphon and Tzeentch — two unhealthy examples of what we could've easily had with KO as well. 

[scrubyandwells]

17 minutes ago, scrubyandwells said:

We'll see...generally, though, I wish we would focus first on the health of the overall ecosystem, and assess books from that standpoint. From that POV, I think we want books to fall in the "fat middle" — 40%-60% win rate, ideally 45%-55%, while knowing that win rate stats have inherent limitations.

Many of the examples given (e.g., Kroak, Nagash, Mortek Guard, Hearthguard), are generally components of builds that are either outside, or the upper bound, of what's "healthy" for the overall environment. I think we want those types of components brought within, or further within, the margins.

It just seems more fruitful to assess battletomes through an egalitarian/healthy ecosystem lens, rather than assessing it in relation to its present, over-performing elements, e.g., Kroak/Salamanders/bound endless spells; Horrors/Flamers/Changehost/etc.; Legion of Chaos Ascendant (summoning Horrors every turn on 9+/10+ on 3 dice; Petrifex Elite/Mortek Guard/Nagash; Hearthguard Berzerkers; arguably IDK; arguably Hallowheart; etc.

A recent example of this was the new KO book. When it came out, quite a few were expressing that it was terrible from a competitive POV; but most folks weren't viewing that book through the "fat middle" lens. If you look at it from that end of the stick, we're fortunate. In terms of overall strength, the book is generally where it should be, especially relative to certain elements in Seraphon and Tzeentch — two unhealthy examples of what we could've easily had with KO as well. 

And sorry @swarmofseals if this came across as a strawman...it was more of a reflection on frustrations with what I perceive as a common, general orientation (which could be off as well...would love for it be), rather than that you were necessarily expressing that orientation.

Edited June 20, 2020 by scrubyandwells

[LuminethMage]

So, the official Warscrolls  are up in the GW Australia and New Zealand store for the three units in the box. 

Lumineth_Warscroll_Dawnriders_EN.pdf Lumineth_Warscroll_Eltharion_EN.pdf Lumineth_Warscroll_Wardens_EN.pdf

[Acid_Nine]

1 hour ago, scrubyandwells said:

And sorry @swarmofseals if this came across as a strawman...it was more of a reflection on frustrations with what I perceive as a common, general orientation (which could be off as well...would love for it be), rather than that you were necessarily expressing that orientation.

I think you hit the nail on the head with the state of warhammer, so well done and well written! I just want the game to be fun for everyone (while keeping my sun metal blades 😏)

[The_Lost_Deputy]

Pre ordered! Phew - can now get back to the weekend. So excited

[Chumphammer]

So the dawn riders on the charge can really nail 1W infantry 
+2 attacks and lances get +1W/+1 Rend, with hits on a 5+ being a MW  

so thats 20 hoof attacks, 15 lance and 4 sword. Thats pretty good for 130pts
 

1 hour ago, The_Lost_Deputy said:

Pre ordered! Phew - can now get back to the weekend. So excited

I did on Thurs from a local store so should be good. 

I like the wardens wall of blades also:

Wall of Blades: When Auralan Wardens
stand shoulder to shoulder, they present a
bristling wall of pikes towards the foe.
If the target unit made a charge move in the
same turn, add 1 to wound rolls for attacks
made with this unit’s Warden’s Pikes and
improve the Rend characteristic of that
weapon by 1.

And Elltharions cheeky shooting:

Searing Darts of Light: Darts of brilliance
hurtle from the Light of Eltharion’s
outstretched fingers, shooting through
nearby enemies.
In your shooting phase, you can pick 1
enemy unit within 18" of this model that
is visible to them and roll a dice. On a 1,
nothing happens. On a 2-4, that unit suffers
D3 mortal wounds. On a 5+, that unit
suffers D6 mortal wounds.

[Incineroar87]

Didnt the german translation say that Eltharion can choose a spell from the Hyish spell lore ? Is there a reason why his warscroll doesnt say he is a wizard like GW was hyping him to be ?

[LuminethMage]

It says that, but it’s likely an overlooked mistake (maybe only in the German version). Probably they had him as a wizard first (which would fit with his old lore), but likely took that away and gave him the ranged attack instead, or just took that function away. Which makes sense, if he’d be a wizard on top of all he has already, that’d be too good for his points. 

Edited June 20, 2020 by LuminethMage

[Jaskier]

What strikes me is the strength of the Cathaller's Battleshock manipulation, especially when fighting elite armies. On a 2+ one of your units ignores a battleshock test (which is already super good) and forces an enemy unit (that already has to take a test) to add the number of models slain from your unit instead when resolving it. People will absolutely have to be mindful of this and keep command points handy for Inspiring Presence, as you can otherwise utterly ruin an opponent with it. Also, slapping enemies with the permanent -1 for shattering aetherquartz combos very nicely with the spell that hinders movement based on beating a units' bravery. 

 

Teclis is a gem. Depending on his base size, screening him from certain shooting elements won't be impossible, and unlike many other divine characters he actually is a terrifying force without needing to get stuck into combat. Give him the spell that doubles the cost of your opponents' command abilities, and it's clear he will be an absolute nightmare to face for several factions. It looks like he not only automatically unbinds one spell a turn (so your opponent can never rely on 'that one game-changing spell' every faction has) but he can attempt to unbind an unlimited amount of other spells (mistranslation perhaps, as this sounds crazy) and gains +1 to the roll to do so. If that wasn't enough, the 4+ 'ignore spell effects and reflect mortal wounds' ability will legitimately ruin a caster armies' (looking at you, Hallowheart players') day. 

 

The three core choices (pike-aelves, archers, cavalry) are all very good for different reasons. The cavalry have incredible theoretical mobility with the double movement spell, are quite cheap and will decimate infantry (remember, all those bonus attacks on their lances can do mortal wounds too!) The archers seem to have a tame profile at first, but their 30" reach in conjunction with ignoring line of sight means they are actually premier character snipers. With the spell active, those shots do mortal wounds on unmodified (meaning Look Out Sir doesn't affect it) 5+ to-hit, meaning a unit of 20 averages about 7 mortal wounds without any other buffs. They are also fantastic for clearing off annoying objective holders/takers like Tree Revenants who often hide away until they're needed. The pike-aelves are just unreasonably scary to charge as they should be, as 2 attacks per model with a 3" reach means they have absurd mortal wound potential. They get damage buffs for being charged, and have a bunch of rules catered to improving their durability beyond their respectable base stats. If you charge a block of 20 that has Power of Hysh active, you'd better hope they're getting decimated or they'll mercilessly kill most anything that charges them. 

 

It's exciting stuff for sure Heck, the battalions look to be easily filled too which is always a bonus! 

 

Edited in side-note; is there anything stopping Vanari units from casting endless spells (the English warscrolls don't prohibit it) and do they actually have access to the Spell Lore of Hysh as was mentioned earlier? If either are a yes, hoo-boy! 

Edited June 20, 2020 by Jaskier

[Incineroar87]

Seems safe to assume that Vanari Wizards can get a lore spell and the Zaitrec faction spell  as they don't have the wording they cant know any other spells that Horrors and Kairic Acolytes have.

[Duke of Mousillon]

1 hour ago, Jaskier said:

 

The three core choices (pike-aelves, archers, cavalry) are all very good for different reasons. The cavalry have incredible theoretical mobility with the double movement spell, are quite cheap and will decimate infantry (remember, all those bonus attacks on their lances can do mortal wounds too!) The archers seem to have a tame profile at first, but their 30" reach in conjunction with ignoring line of sight means they are actually premier character snipers. With the spell active, those shots do mortal wounds on unmodified (meaning Look Out Sir doesn't affect it) 5+ to-hit, meaning a unit of 20 averages about 7 mortal wounds without any other buffs. They are also fantastic for clearing off annoying objective holders/takers like Tree Revenants who often hide away until they're needed. The pike-aelves are just unreasonably scary to charge as they should be, as 2 attacks per model with a 3" reach means they have absurd mortal wound potential. They get damage buffs for being charged, and have a bunch of rules catered to improving their durability beyond their respectable base stats. If you charge a block of 20 that has Power of Hysh active, you'd better hope they're getting decimated or they'll mercilessly kill most anything that charges them. 

 

 

just to make sure you people do the mathhammering right. A unit of 20 Bowmen has actually only 19 "Bowmen" because the leader has no bow. I do not do mathhammer myself but thought id throw it out there that in the German version of the warscroll it is stated that the leader has the sword and birdcage instead of the bow. So you only get 9 or 19 ranged attacks instead of 10 or 20 out of a unit. 

[LuminethMage]

@Jaskier Just to further stoke your enthusiasm : ) 

Teclis unbind: Your translation is correct, "beliebige Anzahl" means "any number". 

Spells for Vanari: You can compare their Warscroll with the one of the Kairic Acolytes, it says on the Acolyte Warscroll that they cannot attempt to cast any spells other than Gestalt Sorcery. The Vanari don't have that restriction. So they should be able to cast all spells which are normally open to Wizards like the Realm Spells and in addition the Lore of Hysh (the Lore extra mentions Vanari-Zauberer (Wizards)) and the Zaitrec one. The Lore of High Peaks (if that's the correct translation) is restricted to the Alarith Wizards (at the moment only the Stonemage) and Teclis. The Vanari also don't get the usual Arcane Bolt and Mystic Shield, but otherwise they should function as any other Wizard. 

Sentinels & Warden: As the Duke mentioned both the High Sentinel and the High Warden don't have the unit weapons (bow, pike), so it's 9,19 etc.  And the German sometimes, Wächterspieß, is technically correct, but at least for me it conjures up a different image. But that might just be me. 

 

[Incineroar87]

So the lore of Hysh does actually state that light of Eltharion gets a spell from this lore, but he doesn’t have the wizard keyword on his warscroll.  Guessing we will need a faq to find what happens here lol 

[elfhead]

So have there been any Lore pages leaked, or just rules? 
 

also, I’m I the only one getting very frustrated with GW with their vagueness on release dates. Things always get released ‘soon’ or ‘not just yet’ and now we won’t have to wait ‘too long’😑

[ArchaicArc]

PRE-ORDERED.