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HollowHills

Aos 2 - Lumineth Realm-Lords Discussion

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1 hour ago, Nighthaunt Noob said:

This seems like a pretty tough statement to back up with any real facts. 

The biggest similarity I can see is that they are both have limited mobility when in defensive posture (Wardens in shining company), but they're going to be fielded in significantly different units sizes, the Wardens with their sunmetal weapons can deal out significantly more damage and have some unique anti charge abilities, and of course their highly noteworthy 3 inch reach. 

I think the word you're actually looking for is complimentary. What you see as similarity is actually thematic army cohesion. Both units can play off each other well to supplement each other's battlefield roles (for example by screening the wardens with the Stoneguard). 

I don't mean to suggest that the units warscrolls are identical or that they can't be used in a mutually supporting way, but rather that their battlefield roles are largely very similar. They are both slow, defense first infantry units that can do some damage when buffed. If you want a unit to fill a defensive holding role on the tabletop you can pick either one and be happy.

I will readily admit though that I think I overstated my case initially. I had forgotten about the stoneguard's pushing ability, which is really unique and interesting.

My point though is mostly a subjective one. I personally like armies that can function in a wide range of ways, so that if I invest in the faction I can build and paint like 3000 points of models and have a couple of different 2000 point armies that feel very different to play on the tabletop. The small size of LRL makes that much harder to accomplish, and it's made even harder when some of the warscrolls do very similar things.

I think it's remarkable though that despite filling very similar roles, wardens and sentinels are both attractive options and could easily both make their way into the same competitive list for exactly the reasons you state. That's pretty remarkable, and it shows real progression on GW's part. How many past tomes had units that occupied the same or similar role where one was just clearly better than the other? Although LRL is a small faction, the internal balance is remarkable. I don't see a single warscroll that can be obviously discounted for competitive use.

1 hour ago, Acid_Nine said:

@swarmofseals

You bring up some pretty good points. I don't know if the Lumineth have answers to things like the Mortek Crawlers or plague claw catapults besides trying to kill them with sentinels. We need a lot of spells, but don't have too many bonus's like Hallowheart does, nor do we have cheaper wizards like I think we need. Our big god model is squishy, but if we get him to work then look out. 

I do feel like we needed more models and more rules that would be good, but I do not know if it is all doom and gloom. Maybe we need some point adjustments (or maybe other factions need point adjustments), and we can certainly use some more units and more models to bring us up to a higher level, but I still think these guys have their place. The mortal wound potential can be insane if you have good dice, for example, and maybe the magic is a bit more tame compared to hallowheart or tzeentch (you know, the two masters of magic factions. ) but I believe they could do well. we don't even have the full book, just translations, so We'll see. I remain hopefully optimistic for it.

I feel the need to clarify here too. My statements weren't meant to be doom and gloom. If the army is a B at power level that makes it perfectly viable for competitive play -- it's just not so powerful that competitive play becomes a major draw to picking up the faction. My comments about comparisons to Hallowheart or OBR wasn't so much to suggest that LRL can't deal with those things, but rather to suggest that if all you are focusing on is how to be most competitive with a given playstyle there are other armies that play a similar game to LRL but look, at least based on first glance, to do a better job of it. So if you don't care if you paint skeletons or cow hats, you're probably going to pick skeletons. If you actually want to play LRL because you like the faction (for the models, the lore, or whatever reason) then it looks completely fine to me. I'd be just as surprised if LRL is a D or F tier faction as I would to find it at A or S tier.

Overall, I think I'm trying to speak more to the folks who are glancing at the tome and thinking that it's some horrible Lovecraftian nightmare of powercreep. I just don't see that at all.

1 hour ago, Falkman said:

The units have a self-buffing spell sure, but they can also pick a spell each from the spell lore as well so I think you will have a very flexible army when it comes to spell casting, and will be able to overcome most magic defenses simply through the sheer amount of spells you will be casting each turn. Attempting 7-8 spells per turn seems very doable, and that’s not counting Teclis.

Do we know this for sure? Almost every other "wizard unit" in the game has a stipulation that it can only cast the spell on its warscroll, and in compensation that spell can be cast by any number of units. I guess we will find out soon enough. If every unit can take spells from the spell lore than I'd probably revise my estimate up a bit as the magic will become a lot stronger against any faction that doesn't have an abundance of anti-magic.

48 minutes ago, Rhetoric said:

Come on all, we need to get these on the table for the doom and gloom starts about how abysmal the army will fare.  We don’t even have translations haha... 

 

The meta can’t even place Seraphon because of COVID and insufficient data.  Let’s all relax, and be optimistic that the army will be fun and competitive.  We’ve all waited for this moment.  

Just want to repeat a bit of what I said above. I don't know if you are specifically referring to me or not, but I really don't intend to be doom and gloom. A B battletome is still a good battletome, and you're absolutely right that we may be dealing with translation errors or even printing errors (non-english editions have been notorious for having important words left out or other issues). I think if you want to play LRL because it's LRL then the tome is absolutely solid. But if you're looking to bandwagon because OMG LRL is busted and you gotta get it if you want to compete.... then I'd recommend caution.

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Hey I am a native German speaker and thought I could help out in this forum and just give a translation for the leaks we have.

Skipping the point table since it should be self explanatory even in German. Though if questions arise feel free to ask.

Great Nations:

Iliatha

Add 2 to the bravery characteristic of VANARI- and AELEMTIRI-Units from ILIATHA  .

After a friendly VANARI-Unit from ILIATHA  uses a command ability, you can choose one friendly VANARI-Unit from ILIATHA  within 3'' of said unit. If you do so, the chosen unit can also use that command ability without spending a command point. You can only use this ability once per phase.

Command ability: You can use this command ability in your shooting- or combatphase. If you do this, choose 1  friendly VANARI-Unit from ILIATHA  with 2 or more models. You can reroll hit-rolls of 1 for that unit.

Artifact of power: The first time the bearer dies roll a dice. On a 1-3 the bearer dies. On a 4-6 the bearer does not die, all wounds allocated to him are healed and all wounds yet to be allocated to him are discarded.

 

Syar

SYAR-Units start the game with 2 aetherquarts instead of one.

Command ability: You can use this command ability when a friendly SYAR-Unit could use an aetherquarts ability, even if a friendly SYAR-Unit already used one in that phase. If you do so, choose one  friendly SYAR-Unit with at least 1 remaining aetherquarts and is completely within 18'' of a  friendly SYAR-HERO. The unit can spend 1 aetherquarts to use the aetherquarts ability. 

Command trait: At the beginning of the combatphase you can choose 1 enemy HERO within 6'' if the bearer. The chosen enemy HERO can only choose this general as a target in this phase. In adition you can add 1 to attacks targeting the chosen enemy HERO. (Here i would like to add that is does not specifically state that its only your generals attacks. So putting your general behind or into your pikemen would mean that those also get the +1. It would be synergistic with all heroes of us being noncombat oriented at least for the non named ones but it could also be sloppy writing on GWs part.) 

Artifact of power: Choose 1 melee weapon of the bearer. An unmodified hitroll of 3+ always hits. An unmodified woundroll of 3+ always wounds. An unmodified saferoll of 3 or less for wounds from this weapon are always failed.

Ymetrica

The trait "Hard as Stone" changes the rend characteristic of attacks targeting  ALARITH-Unit from YMETRICA  to "-" if the attacks targeting the unit have a rend characteristic of -1 or -2.

Command Ability: You can use this command ability at the end of the combatphase. If you do so choose 1 friendly  friendly ALARITH-Unit from YMETRICA that has just for the first time this phase forced an enemy unit to move with the "Tectonic Force" ability  and that is completely within 18'' of a friendly ALARITH-Hero from YMETRICA.  You can use the ability "Tectonic Force" again by choosing another enemy unit within 1'' of the chosen friendly unit.

Command Trait: When this general fights instead of piling in and attacking you can choose him to make a single powerful blow.  If you do so choose an enemy within 1'' and roll a dice, on a 2+ you deal d3 mortal wounds. 

Artifact of Power:  Choose 1 of the bearers melee weapons.  Once per phase you can add 1 to the damage inflicted by 1 of the weapons attacks. Aditionally whenever the bearer suffers a wound or mortal wound roll a dice. On a 6+ negate it. Aditionally whenever the bearer is affected by a spell or endless spell you can roll a dice. On a 5+ ignore the effects for the bearer.

Zaitrec

Add 1 to the first cast-, dispell- and unbindrolls of each friendly ZAITREC-WIZARD in each herophase. In addition each ZAITREC-WIZARD-HERO knows 1 additional spell from his lore of magic.

Command Trait: This General can try to unbind an additional spell in each of your enemies herophases. If he tries to unbind his second spell in the same herophase you may reroll it.

Artifact of Power: Roll a dice whenever assiging a wound or motal wound to the bearer. If Teclis is part of your army and on the battlefield add 2 to the roll. On a 6+ it is negated.

Lore of Zaitrec: Each ZAITREC-WIZARD knows this spell in addition to any other spells. This spell has a casting value of 7. If succesfully cast choose 1 enemy unit wholly within 24'' and visible to the caster.  Half the movement characteristic of the chosen unit until your next herophase. The roll a dice. When the roll equals or exceeds the savecharacteristic of the chosen unit suffers d3 mortal wounds.

 

This has taken some time and i dont want to spam this forum. If you would like me to translate the warscrolls and spells for you i would do that tomorrow. If this is too much spam and not needed i apologise.   

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1 hour ago, fenriswolf2003 said:

Does anyone know at which time (with time zone pls) the preorder starts?

Idk about straight from GW but I was just talking with an ebay vendor that says they're allowed to post them at midnight tonight local time.

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4 minutes ago, Nighthaunt Noob said:

Idk about straight from GW but I was just talking with an ebay vendor that says they're allowed to post them at midnight tonight local time.

I heard 10am UK time somewhere 

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27 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

Do we know this for sure? Almost every other "wizard unit" in the game has a stipulation that it can only cast the spell on its warscroll, and in compensation that spell can be cast by any number of units.

The page with the spell lore mentions that the units can pick spells from the lore, so seems pretty clear. It could be an editing mistake I guess.

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See the thing I just dont understand is this. What Vanari units can use command abilities? From what I have seen there are no vanari heroes that can do it. Do you just pick one and let it go for Iliatha?

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2 minutes ago, Acid_Nine said:

See the thing I just dont understand is this. What Vanari units can use command abilities? From what I have seen there are no vanari heroes that can do it. Do you just pick one and let it go for Iliatha?

What i think if you are refering to the reroll 1s is that every unit can use it on itself? because it doesnt talk about any hero unit and initself. We have a generic comman ability doing the rerolling 1s already dont we? so i would assume it is smth like that the infantry unit can do it on itself if they want to? it would be the only. reasonable thing with generic command abilties existing

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8 minutes ago, Acid_Nine said:

See the thing I just dont understand is this. What Vanari units can use command abilities? From what I have seen there are no vanari heroes that can do it. Do you just pick one and let it go for Iliatha?

That’s pretty much how all command abilities work? The rulebook says you need heroes in your army to use CAs, but it doesn’t say that the heroes are the ones actually using them. The regular three in the core book all seem to be used by the units themselves, they just need a hero nearby.

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I'm soo soo disappointed with this release :(

Feels like I've been waiting for Aelves a very long time, and when they announced Lumineth I was really excited to finally get to play an elven faction!
But after seeing the choices in the book I'm really disappointed.

The unit choices and variety is abysmal, the character choices and variety is also abysmal, there isn't even a single common fighting hero!
It's like there is no actual no choices at all in the book. I don't think I've seen this week a release in a long time when it comes to actually no named army choices!

So even if I like the models, this release seems to be a huge letdown :(

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10 minutes ago, Falkman said:

That’s pretty much how all command abilities work? The rulebook says you need heroes in your army to use CAs, but it doesn’t say that the heroes are the ones actually using them. The regular three in the core book all seem to be used by the units themselves, they just need a hero nearby.

I never saw it that way, but fair enough. Thanks! 

 

15 minutes ago, Duke of Mousillon said:

What i think if you are refering to the reroll 1s is that every unit can use it on itself? because it doesnt talk about any hero unit and initself. We have a generic comman ability doing the rerolling 1s already dont we? so i would assume it is smth like that the infantry unit can do it on itself if they want to? it would be the only. reasonable thing with generic command abilties existing

yea, I saw it almost as soon as I wrote it. Still, it's a cool ability and thanks for the translation!

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3 minutes ago, texhnology said:

I'm soo soo disappointed with this release :(

Feels like I've been waiting for Aelves a very long time, and when they announced Lumineth I was really excited to finally get to play an elven faction!
But after seeing the choices in the book I'm really disappointed.

The unit choices and variety is abysmal, the character choices and variety is also abysmal, there isn't even a single common fighting hero!
It's like there is no actual no choices at all in the book. I don't think I've seen this week a release in a long time when it comes to actually no named army choices!

So even if I like the models, this release seems to be a huge letdown :(

I feel you. I was hyped when I saw Pikes and Silverhelms and Bowmen. I mean. I really dont like the cowhelmet dudes but whatever. Whoever likes them good for them. I want my White Lions back. Nevertheless after that it was like hot air. Nothing came anymore. Oh we got... 2 generic lords. both level 1 utility casters. Not necessarily the same yet similar. The 3 units that got me hyped are now without weapon options too. So. Yeah it was all a big start but. everything was at the start thats why it was big. nothing came afterwards. I am still contemplaiting if I really wanna start this army or not. With tomorrow coming close idk if I should buy the box set or not.

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@swarmofseals Concerning the spell selection for the wizard units, in the “Lore of Hysh” it says that these spells can be taken by Vanari Zauberer (Vanari Wizards). In each of the three Vanari unit warscrolls it says under the Magic section “The Steedmaster/High Sentinel/High Warden of this unit is a Wizard” (Der Steedmaster dieser Einheit ist ein Zauberer). It’s exactly the same wording they use for the hero Wizards. (It can attempt to cast 1 spell in your hero phase and attempt to unbind 1 spell in the next hero phase). 

The difference is that it’s followed by the restriction “as long as the unit contains 3/5 or more models”, which hero wizards of course don’t have. And they can’t use Arcane Bolt and Mystic Shield. The only spell mentioned there is Power of Hysh. But crucially, it doesn’t say that they can only cast Power of Hysh, like for example with the Kairic Acolytes, where it’s specifically mentioned on the warscroll that they can’t cast anything besides Gestalt Sorcery. Power of Hysh can be cast by any number of Wizards who know the spell. 

But there are no other restrictions, and there are no other Vanari Wizards besides them. So I’m sure they must be able to chose a spell from the Lore of Hysh, the Zaitrec spell if you use that sub faction, and other similar additional spells like realm spells. 

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, Duke of Mousillon said:

I feel you. I was hyped when I saw Pikes and Silverhelms and Bowmen. I mean. I really dont like the cowhelmet dudes but whatever. Whoever likes them good for them. I want my White Lions back. Nevertheless after that it was like hot air. Nothing came anymore. Oh we got... 2 generic lords. both level 1 utility casters. Not necessarily the same yet similar. The 3 units that got me hyped are now without weapon options too. So. Yeah it was all a big start but. everything was at the start thats why it was big. nothing came afterwards. I am still contemplaiting if I really wanna start this army or not. With tomorrow coming close idk if I should buy the box set or not.

That's a pretty good summation. In retrospect, the "initial" reveal was half of the army release already. After that was the Stonemage and the Sentinels, and by the time of the controversial "cow" reveal there was honestly nothing really left to show, despite that exact reveal being the one talking about how they got excited and made too many models, and we were all just dipping our toes into the full army, ect, ect.

It's been a strange rollout with strange marketing all around, even without circumstances causing the release of this weirdly small army to be dragged out half a year or more.

 

Edited by madmac
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I think they made Tyrion and the other elements too but decided to cut them in half to make too "major releases'.. As it is the army really feels like half of something in my opinion..

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What time in the US will the pre-order go live?  I’m in EST.  

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51 minutes ago, Siegfried VII said:

I think they made Tyrion and the other elements too but decided to cut them in half to make too "major releases'.. As it is the army really feels like half of something in my opinion..

I hope this is true, but so far we haven't seen any AOS armies get expanded beyond their initial release except SCE. And with today's announcement that the rest of the army (ie: the stuff we know about that isn't in the army box) coming "later this year") that makes me less hopeful that there will be a second wave of LRL releases any time in the foreseeable future. I wouldn't be surprised to see it happen in a couple of years, but the prospect of waiting that long for the army to get fleshed out (and waiting for maybe months to even get the kits we know about) has me contemplating canceling my planned preorder.

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22 minutes ago, Rhetoric said:

What time in the US will the pre-order go live?  I’m in EST.  

It looks like it’s around 10am for US time zones.  It there is a lot of conflicting info around. You can check the Facebook posts when they announced the box. A lot of people asked and the official reply can be summed up to around “10am In many time zones, but not all, please check the page regularly.” For me the stress starts in one hour, could be any time from 10am to 2am on the next day. 

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14 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

I hope this is true, but so far we haven't seen any AOS armies get expanded beyond their initial release except SCE. And with today's announcement that the rest of the army (ie: the stuff we know about that isn't in the army box) coming "later this year") that makes me less hopeful that there will be a second wave of LRL releases any time in the foreseeable future. I wouldn't be surprised to see it happen in a couple of years, but the prospect of waiting that long for the army to get fleshed out (and waiting for maybe months to even get the kits we know about) has me contemplating canceling my planned preorder.

I hear you mate and I agree.. The thought of waiting more months infuriates me especially for such a small range of models and yes it will be quite some time before we see the Tyrion side of things.. But unless there is a second wave the statements of Phil Kelly in the preview show they did some time ago that they made a huge range and that they scratched the surface would make him look like insane with this Ironjawz/Fyreslaysers in terms of models/warscrolls army release we got..

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5 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

I'd be full on shocked if Lumineth are S tier and really surprised if they are A tier. My best bet is that they are a middling B, but I wouldn't be surprised if they are C tier. Again, I could very well be mistaken if I'm interpreting the rules incorrectly -- but this is my first impression.

We'll see...generally, though, I wish we would focus first on the health of the overall ecosystem, and assess books from that standpoint. From that POV, I think we want books to fall in the "fat middle" — 40%-60% win rate, ideally 45%-55%, while knowing that win rate stats have inherent limitations.

Many of the examples given (e.g., Kroak, Nagash, Mortek Guard, Hearthguard), are generally components of builds that are either outside, or the upper bound, of what's "healthy" for the overall environment. I think we want those types of components brought within, or further within, the margins.

It just seems more fruitful to assess battletomes through an egalitarian/healthy ecosystem lens, rather than assessing it in relation to its present, over-performing elements, e.g., Kroak/Salamanders/bound endless spells; Horrors/Flamers/Changehost/etc.; Legion of Chaos Ascendant (summoning Horrors every turn on 9+/10+ on 3 dice; Petrifex Elite/Mortek Guard/Nagash; Hearthguard Berzerkers; arguably IDK; arguably Hallowheart; etc.

A recent example of this was the new KO book. When it came out, quite a few were expressing that it was terrible from a competitive POV; but most folks weren't viewing that book through the "fat middle" lens. If you look at it from that end of the stick, we're fortunate. In terms of overall strength, the book is generally where it should be, especially relative to certain elements in Seraphon and Tzeentch — two unhealthy examples of what we could've easily had with KO as well. 

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