Aos 2 - Lumineth Realm-Lords Discussion

[ArchaicArc]

45 minutes ago, Evangelist of Cinders said:

Anyone else have some bent Warden pike? They are thin enough to the point I worry about the old hot water trick and the hand placement done for the machining makes me a bit cautious for the historic wargame brass rods.

 

 

 

I’ve seen this on the games workshop studio models too, I think they are trying to add realism to how pikes bend in reality due to the flexibility of the wood and heavy metal tip.

[ArchaicArc]

5 minutes ago, elfhead said:

I also think the mistweaver saih is a good option. It has the flowing mist which could represent the smoke from the brazier on the cathaller. 
 

this is a conversion of her I did quite some time ago

 

This is being stolen. By me. I am stealing this idea. It is stolen.

[Miyokari]

5 minutes ago, elfhead said:

I also think the mistweaver saih is a good option. It has the flowing mist which could represent the smoke from the brazier on the cathaller. 
 

this is a conversion of her I did quite some time ago

 

 

This looks amazing and makes me want to change her exactly like you did! Which head is it ?

Also thanks everyone for the help! I already have several ideas for conversion, so thank you so much

[swarmofseals]

6 hours ago, Miyokari said:

I am really in love with the army and everything that can be done with it, I am in love with everything including the models except one....Scinari Cathaller. Does anyone have any conversion/alternate ideas that can be done on this one model? I would gladly accept any tips on that

If you've got cash to burn the Alarielle model from late WHFB would make a great cathaller.

[Evangelist of Cinders]

8 hours ago, Miyokari said:

I am really in love with the army and everything that can be done with it, I am in love with everything including the models except one....Scinari Cathaller. Does anyone have any conversion/alternate ideas that can be done on this one model? I would gladly accept any tips on that

Bretonnian Damsel on foot,Lahmia on foot or the wood elf spell weaver work  thematically . unsure on the base size of the Cathaller though. I plan on proxying  my bretonnians(pin them on the base a while back so just move the infantry onto a larger base) for a at home game

 

[Eldarain]

6 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

If you've got cash to burn the Alarielle model from late WHFB would make a great cathaller.

I have the the one from Early WHFB to use. I really like that Mistweaver conversion though. Some more sincerest flattery heading that way as I have her unbuilt too.

[fenriswolf2003]

The anvil of apotheosis preview is looking good. The only bad thing is that he will either cost 200 or 400 but nothing in-between.

[Bob]

On 6/30/2020 at 11:20 PM, Azamar said:

Finished my first warden. Bit of a test colour scheme but I like it well enough to do the rest the same way, although white clothes are a bit tricky. 
 

no particular great nation as I probably won’t focus on just one to start with. 

Really like that scheme! What colours did you use for the outer robe? One of the contrast paints thinned down?

[John Edwards]

1 hour ago, fenriswolf2003 said:

The anvil of apotheosis preview is looking good. The only bad thing is that he will either cost 200 or 400 but nothing in-between.

I interpreted it slightly differently. You select either 20 or 40 destiny points as your initial budget. You then purchase ancestry, equipment, etc spending destiny points as you do so.

What ever your selected budget you do not need to spend all of your destiny points. A 31 point hero is possible and would be worth 310 pitched battle points in matched play.

Quote

 GW Community: you can include a custom hero in your army at a points cost of 10x the destiny points you spent on them

So 10x what you spent, not 10x initial budget.

Edited July 3, 2020 by John Edwards
clarification

[John Edwards]

37 minutes ago, xking said:

Does the battletome talk about what the wind temple warriors look like?   or the river  warriors?

Wind: There is a short section which mentions mounted archers on long-limbed mounts, mages riding clouds and a fox faced spirit.

River: Less detail, there is a mention of their warriors striking with "quicksilver grace" and of a band of orruks, slain in a river, corrupting said river and near by water temples with their savageness.

[swarmofseals]

I've now got my own copy of the battletome and have been trying to wrap my head around it. I really, really want these guys to be good but the more I try the more frustrated I get!

Disclaimer: all of this is from a competitive perspective. I think these guys are going to be perfectly viable in almost any configuration in a casual or semi-competitive environment. ALL of the warscrolls are good enough to use, and now that I've crunched the numbers I'm fairly confident that I was wrong about too many warscrolls being redundant. There's very little redundancy in the book.

First, here are my brief thoughts on all of the warscrolls:

Spoiler

• Teclis - Ultra powerful, game defining warscroll but also a massive liability in any metagame that has a good amount of shooting. If all of your locals are melee or magic hounds then Teclis could be a great meta call. Against an unknown opponent though I think he just raises the % of games that you auto-lose too much.
• Eltharion - He's fine, but I don't really see why you'd want to take him from a competitive standpoint. His damage output is good for a hero on foot, and his defensive efficiency is good for a hero on foot but he's incredibly weak to mortal wounds, is slow, and doesn't do anything that other warscrolls don't already do. I'd rather have more wardens, stoneguard or whatever than him.
• Avalenor - This guy seems very good. He provides a little ranged support, has OK damage efficiency for a hero/monster (although still worse than regular units) and OK defensive efficiency for a hero/monster. His -1 hit aura is really nice, and I think he will be a key part of the Stoneguard battalion as it provides a second hero with which to trigger the battalion ability. His CA is also really, really good. Solid all around warscroll that does a little bit of everything.
• Alarith Spirit of the Mountain - Almost strictly worse than Avalenor, I can only imagine taking one if for some reason I want two big monsters. He's not a hero (which matters for some battleplans). His support abilities are significantly worse, his damage efficiency is a bit lower when charging and a bit higher when not charging, and his defensive efficiency is a bit worse. Unless you absolutely MUST have that 20 points for something else, Avalenor is going to be better 95% of the time.
• The mages - both seem decent but you're not building a list around them.
• Alarith Stoneguard - Very, very good defensive infantry. I think it's worth comparing them to Phoenix Guard, Mortek Guard, and Hearthguard Berserkers. Offensively Stoneguard are fine. At their peak they are better than Phoenix Guard but I think will be roughly comparable in average game situations. But they are much worse than buffed Mortek Guard or Hearthguard Berserkers. Defensively they are nothing to write home about outside their battalion -- good but definitely not great. In their battalion though they are only beaten by Petrifex Mortek Guard against rend 0 melee and actually beat Petrifex Mortek Guard against rend 1 (and rend 2 if Ymetrica). They beat out Phoenix Guard and Hearthguard in melee against all conventional attacks, but are much worse against mortal wounds. Against ranged attacks Phoenix Guard and Hearthguard are better and Petrifex Mortek Guard are a bit better. That said, their defense is vulnerable to hero sniping in a way that PG and MG isn't.
• Vanari Dawnriders - The only fast unit available, I don't see how you can go without at least a unit of these or maybe two. They are also extremely efficient against 1 wound infantry and very efficient against 2 wound infantry, but they are awful against other targets. They absolutely can't be relied on as the core of an army.
• Vanari Auralan Sentinels - I think these are one of the most unique strengths in the roster. They are incredible hero snipers and a very good source of mortal wounds at range. Their damage output is not great against cheap wounds though, so again like dawnriders they are a niche role and I don't see them as a viable core. They are also horrible defensively and incredibly vulnerable to enemy ranged units.
• Vanari Auralan Wardens - Despite their billing these guys are actually not defensively efficient, even in their battalion and in the Shining Company formation. In Shining Company and in their battalion they are decently efficient against rend 0 but not good against any other damage type. Otherwise they are only OK defensively in Shining Company and quite bad outside of it. They are slow (especially in Shining Company), but their damage output is quite respectable. At base they are good but not great, but with Power of Hysh active they are very good. Their Wizard status gives them some utility, too. But overall they are slow and don't excel at anything -- a combination of characteristics that you almost never see in competitive units. The problem is that unless you go Ymetrica then you have to take at least two units of these guys for your battleline.

Thoughts on Great Nations:

Spoiler

• The two ones that seem competitive to me are Ymetrica and Zaitrec with maybe Syar as a dark horse.
• Zaitrec seems like it should be the best option. Resolving Power of Hysh is just so important in making Sentinels and Wardens good, so the +1 to cast seems really hard to give up. Overwhelming Heat is also very good. The other characteristics are minor at best.
• Ymetrica definitely makes Alarith units more reliable, but beyond that everything else is really mediocre. The key thing is making Stoneguard battleline.

So this leads me to the following frustrations:

• Stoneguard are the only warscroll that is good enough at what it does to form a viable core to the army, but they aren't battleline and they aren't good enough all around (like Mortek Guard or Hearthguard Berserkers) to actually carry the army.
• Wardens are probably the worst non-hero/monster warscroll, but also the only battleline option outside Ymetrica.
• Sentinels and Dawnriders both seem necessary, but neither can really form the core of the army as they are also niche. They (especially Sentinels) also really want to be in Zaitrec.
• The army has no screening unit. Wardens can't really screen in Shining Company (and are too expensive for the role anyway), and Stoneguard who could screen are bad at it because they are 2W per base instead of 1.

In the end I can't figure out how to build a legal list that will actually do what I want it to do reliably.

If I go Ymetrica, my Sentinels become much less reliable. If I go Zaitrec I don't have enough points to keep my drops to a reasonable level, get the support units that I need and get enough Stoneguard to form a core.

I don't really see how any build of Lumineth beats Deepkin, Tzeentch, or a ranged heavy Cities or Seraphon build. If you go too heavy on sentinels, then I think you can add Orruk Warclans to that list.

So yeah, I feel pretty stuck.

[Chumphammer]

@swarmofseals Just wondering what your "competitive perspective" experience is? 

[swarmofseals]

5 minutes ago, Chumphammer said:

@swarmofseals Just wondering what your "competitive perspective" experience is? 

What do you mean?

[Chumphammer]

1 minute ago, swarmofseals said:

What do you mean?

Well, You are stating your personal opinion from a competitive perspective, so I am wondering what your level of competitiveness is?

Are you an ETC player? do you top 3 in many large tournaments?

Just wondering to what level your experience adds weight to your review 

[elfhead]

23 hours ago, Miyokari said:

 

This looks amazing and makes me want to change her exactly like you did! Which head is it ?

Also thanks everyone for the help! I already have several ideas for conversion, so thank you so much

The head is from the dark elf dragon kit. So might be a little hard to find. 

[swarmofseals]

1 minute ago, Chumphammer said:

Well, You are stating your personal opinion from a competitive perspective, so I am wondering what your level of competitiveness is?

Are you an ETC player? do you top 3 in many large tournaments?

Just wondering to what level your experience adds weight to your review 

I'll send you a PM about this that answers your question more directly, but I want to be clear that I'm not intending my post to be a review of the army. I have no illusions about my take being definitive and even if I were a world class player I wouldn't suggest that my take is definitive as it's really not plausible to have enough actual play experience to have a definitive take at this point (barring maybe actual playtesters).

I'm honestly hoping that someone with high level experience (like yourself, perhaps) will chime in and make a counterargument because I really would love to be wrong.

[Chumphammer]

4 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

I'll send you a PM about this that answers your question more directly, but I want to be clear that I'm not intending my post to be a review of the army. I have no illusions about my take being definitive and even if I were a world class player I wouldn't suggest that my take is definitive as it's really not plausible to have enough actual play experience to have a definitive take at this point (barring maybe actual playtesters).

I'm honestly hoping that someone with high level experience (like yourself, perhaps) will chime in and make a counterargument because I really would love to be wrong.

I have my opinions but I wanna get some games with them as they seem very much about synergies rather than 1 off power units 

[Azamar]

3 hours ago, Bob said:

Really like that scheme! What colours did you use for the outer robe? One of the contrast paints thinned down?

Thanks! It’s Celestra grey, ulthuan grey then white scar shaded with very diluted drakenhof nightshade. I’ve seen (in one of Duncan’s videos) that the fang with lots of lahmian medium might make a better shade though 

[Acid_Nine]

@swarmofseals Your opinion on this is pretty good, and we should consider a lot of it, but I do not think the outlook as bad as you're making it out to be. (I could be wrong as usual, as I couldn't make outflanking deepkin work all too well with my terrible luck.) I think one of the struggles of the book will be to put our wardens in a position to benefit from the most buffs as possible, and the two protective buff spells will be key to keeping them alive. Whether getting those spells off is easy in the long haul of the game or not is something to be seen, but I think we have a place at the table in the top lists. We may need to play around to find out.

 

I really do not see why you like stoneguard so much though. could you enlighten me on it? because it seems they need at least a battalion, a mountain, and the faction to make them really tanky. again, I could be wrong, but I do not see taking them over wardens. 

[Chumphammer]

Not finished yet but my first two wip for Lions of Lumineth 

[Gecktron]

2 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

So this leads me to the following frustrations:

• Stoneguard are the only warscroll that is good enough at what it does to form a viable core to the army, but they aren't battleline and they aren't good enough all around (like Mortek Guard or Hearthguard Berserkers) to actually carry the army.
• Wardens are probably the worst non-hero/monster warscroll, but also the only battleline option outside Ymetrica.
• Sentinels and Dawnriders both seem necessary, but neither can really form the core of the army as they are also niche. They (especially Sentinels) also really want to be in Zaitrec.
• The army has no screening unit. Wardens can't really screen in Shining Company (and are too expensive for the role anyway), and Stoneguard who could screen are bad at it because they are 2W per base instead of 1.

In the end I can't figure out how to build a legal list that will actually do what I want it to do reliably.

If I go Ymetrica, my Sentinels become much less reliable. If I go Zaitrec I don't have enough points to keep my drops to a reasonable level, get the support units that I need and get enough Stoneguard to form a core.

I don't really see how any build of Lumineth beats Deepkin, Tzeentch, or a ranged heavy Cities or Seraphon build. If you go too heavy on sentinels, then I think you can add Orruk Warclans to that list.

So yeah, I feel pretty stuck.

First of all, thank you for putting all your thoughts in writing. I have similar feelings towards this book, so its good to see them written down. 

I definitely share this feeling of frustration. I just played a test game with a Alarith heavy Ymetrica list. While the Ymetrica mountain stance is nice, the lack of MW protection, and the short treat range hurts. 

I agree Dawnriders and Sentinels feel necessary. While the Geomantic blast looks nice with its 30" range and D6 Damage, if I have learned one thing from playing Kharadron Overlords than it is that you cant rely on a single shot weapon. 
On the other hand, I think the Stone Guard needs both Mountain Spirits and Stone Mages to really get going. 

[swarmofseals]

11 minutes ago, Acid_Nine said:

@swarmofseals Your opinion on this is pretty good, and we should consider a lot of it, but I do not think the outlook as bad as you're making it out to be. (I could be wrong as usual, as I couldn't make outflanking deepkin work all too well with my terrible luck.) I think one of the struggles of the book will be to put our wardens in a position to benefit from the most buffs as possible, and the two protective buff spells will be key to keeping them alive. Whether getting those spells off is easy in the long haul of the game or not is something to be seen, but I think we have a place at the table in the top lists. We may need to play around to find out.

 

I really do not see why you like stoneguard so much though. could you enlighten me on it? because it seems they need at least a battalion, a mountain, and the faction to make them really tanky. again, I could be wrong, but I do not see taking them over wardens. 

Yeah, you absolutely need the battalion and the mountain. But if you want to keep your drops down you are taking a battalion anyway, and the Alarith battalion gives you everything you want to support the stoneguard.

Take a look at the defensive efficiencies (here represented in effective wounds per point against r0/r1/r2/mortal wounds):

Stoneguard vs. ranged damage are .2/.2/.12/.1 and in battalion vs. melee are .4/.4/.225/.1. In Ymetrica just replace the r2 number with the r1 number.

Wardens are .2/.136/.1/.083 with battalion bonus and .167/.125/.1/.083 without. These numbers are improved by about 33% by Shining Company.

In the context of the game at large, a defensive efficiency against r0 of .3 is at the top end of the spectrum with very few units exceeding that mark. A rating of .2 is OK but nothing special, .15 is mediocre and .1 and below is outright bad. When you look at it this way, you can see that Stoneguard stand out. .4 is excellent against r0 and even moreso against r1 or r2.  The gap is closed some when Shining Company is active, but it's not even close to enough to even things out.

The only situation where Wardens and Stoneguard are even of defense is vs. r0 shooting. In every other situation Stoneguard are far better -- about 20% better against mortal wounds, 100% better against r0 melee, 220% better against r1 melee and 300% better against r2 melee (if Ymetrica).

My offensive numbers are more complicated and I really don't want to go over the details. But if you're willing to accept that, wardens at baseline are a .0989 that goes up to .1404 with Power of Hysh. Stoneguard have a baseline of .0803 that pops up to .1205 with +1 attack and a bit higher with Stonemage Stance (which I think is a bonus that will be difficult to use).  So wardens are about 23% better at baseline and 16.5% better when buffed. The stoneguard buff is easier to achieve though as it never fails and can't be unbound. Yes, Avalenor might die but he is really quite hard to kill. Power of Hysh will only succeed about 72-83% of the time (depending on Zaitrec or not) and that's not factoring in unbinds. Against some opponents (Nagash, Kroak etc.) you'll have very little chance of resolving it. 

Stoneguard are a bit slower but they can at least run while keeping their defensive buffs up while wardens can neither run nor really change formation easily while keeping Shining Company active. Getting around terrain will be a problem for larger warden units. Stoneguard also have the additional utility of pushing.

The main point in favor of wardens is their wizard status. Their unbind is nice, especially in Zaitrec. The fact that they can cast a lore spell is very good, but most of the lore spells are utility spells that don't help you deal damage. And if they are casting a lore spell they aren't casting Power of Hysh.

TL;DR - Stoneguard are far better than wardens on defense in most situations while wardens are only better than stoneguard on offense by a small margin (and worse in some matchups where Power of Hysh is unrealistic).

 PS - Wardens behind Stoneguard could be a nice way of concentrating damage, but again I don't know how to make it all fit into a list. Between drop count, wanting sentinels, and wanting dawnriders something has to give and I'm not sure how to give something without breaking the list.

[LuminethMage]

Sounds all very reasonable. Some things you’ll have to test I guess. For example, will Power of Hysh be difficult to cast against the likes of Kroak? You'll likely have 4 to 6 units on the battlefield alone which can cast that in the first few turns (if you go Vanari). At least one more Wizard, maybe two and/or Teclis. All on at least a +1 and under extremely good conditions +3 to cast. That’s a lot to securely unbind even for Kroak. Of course most of the time not all of them need to cast Power of Hysh, but then you might get an ethereal off on them or something else that helps. 

But generally speaking, I think you are right, we’ll struggle with building lists where you can get everything in that you feel you need for a well-rounded list. 

[LuminethMage]

Going about the other Realms kicking ass, basically. The Lumineth are a bit similar to the Seraphon in that respect, they’ll show up somewhere and “help” the local population - by defeating a Chaos army for example, and then making sure that Chaos can’t return, by burning huge magical symbols into the earth, which seal off entree-ways for Chaos, but might also destroy half you city and population if it’s in the wrong place.  Generally, they are looking for areas which are or could be under assault from Chaos. And Teclis is often personally leading these efforts. 

The other thing he is doing is still reclaiming their homelands and trying to shore up Hysh  (with the same kind of symbols) as it’s disintegrating at many places. Tyrion is more focused on that, and thinks the whole venturing abroad thing is a bad idea on many levels. So nothing new there. 

When he has nothing else to do, Teclis can be found above the Hyshian Relamsphere, chatting with Celennar about the meaning of life and why moon symbolisms is all the rage this year. 

Edited July 4, 2020 by LuminethMage

[Siegfried VII]

2 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

My offensive numbers are more complicated and I really don't want to go over the details. But if you're willing to accept that, wardens at baseline are a .0989 that goes up to .1404 with Power of Hysh. Stoneguard have a baseline of .0803 that pops up to .1205 with +1 attack and a bit higher with Stonemage Stance (which I think is a bonus that will be difficult to use).  So wardens are about 23% better at baseline and 16.5% better when buffed. The stoneguard buff is easier to achieve though as it never fails and can't be unbound. Yes, Avalenor might die but he is really quite hard to kill. Power of Hysh will only succeed about 72-83% of the time (depending on Zaitrec or not) and that's not factoring in unbinds. Against some opponents (Nagash, Kroak etc.) you'll have very little chance of resolving it. 

TL;DR - Stoneguard are far better than wardens on defense in most situations while wardens are only better than stoneguard on offense by a small margin (and worse in some matchups where Power of Hysh is unrealistic).

I have done some math-hammer using the AoS Statshammer app and I find Wardens much better in the offence than Stoneguard. In the picture below we have the stats for both units without any buffs on the left  and on the right we have the buffed versions. Stoneguard has the +1 attack from the Avelanor/Spirit of the Mountain command ability and the Stonemage Stance for +1 rend and the Wardens are empowered my the Power of Hysh spell.

The difference in damage output is quite significant in my opinion but the problem is that in the case of Stoneguard I have invested a 340/360pts monster, a 130pts Mage (a difficult buff to use as you have stated yourself) and I have spent a precious command point to make them only marginally better than the warden unit without any buffs. With their spell the Wardens become much better and I have only spent the points for this unit to have the effect. My point is the they are self sufficient and buff themselves. All this without taking into account their bonus when they get charged. On top of that they are double the number of models for objecive scoring (which in the end is how we'll win the game).

As for defence in order for the Stoneguard to be great they need a specific nation, a battalion and even then unless you take Avelanor having the stonemage wholly within 12 inches of them to get the reroll for their saves will be mighty tricky.  Also they will suffer against units that get to fight at the beginning of the combat phase as in the opponent's turn will all but negate the ability.

Now I haven't done the math, but against -1 rend shooting (which is the majority of the shooting out there) and with Wardens in shinning formation getting a -1 to hit I don't seem them be all that better defensively..

Of course I will have to play some games in order to see all these theories/statistics in action, but my first impression is that the Wardens are a superior choice in competitive terms.. Regarding your other observations I mostly agree though.. 🙂