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Aos 2 - Lumineth Realm-Lords Discussion


HollowHills

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10 hours ago, woolf said:

seems to me there should be 2 more kits/warscrolls based on:

Alarith Stonemage

Alarith Spirit of the Mountain

Alarith Stoneguard

Scinari Cathallar

 

ie Alarith =3x, Scinari so far = 1x, and Hysh is all about symmetry right?

This. It would be very weird that we would only get 10 warscrolls, with the Lumineth been the "spiritual successor" of one of the most beloved WHFB armies + the long teasing campaign. I would say that there will be a Scinari hero and a Scinari "Ellyrion Reavers". 12 warscrolls, terrain, endless spell and the possibility of allying with other elvish factions such as the Phoenix Temple. Obviously, if the release ends up being only this, I will be disappointed, but I am waiting till we actually get the date of the release to criticize if that is the case. Although I agree with GW handling poorly the communication regarding this army, or even stretching too much the reveal period, I understand that Covid-19 has created a disruption which is very difficult to manage properly (By governments, business or even ourselves in our personal lives). So, let's hope that GW can safely re-start their production soon and see if we get anything else.

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I've not been a big fan of the range, I admit, but what I would suggest is a moment of reflection. Remember the situation we're all in right now. These aren't normal times. GW is affected by more than just this range, and while they like to plan ahead, impacts on their business have been around since the beginning of the year. They've promised 2 new factions but they'll need to balance this with the sad fact, that for many, disposable incomes to spend on this hobby will be greatly reduced worldwide for the foreseeable future. Lockdowns will see increase in costs, not to mention problems with getting these minis out across the world. And thats just scraping the surface of an otherwise bad situation all-round for many businesses. GW won't be immune to this.

What they have, though, is passionate hobbyists who will stick with them. Sure the Lumineth range isn't what we expect, and I won't be investing quite yet (still not a fan of the designs), BUT there's enough passion shown here to say the range will sell. And my money will go into other ranges when fortune permits.

Like a lot of you, this hobby has kept me sane during these rough times. I reckon some patience isn't much to ask then, to keep this hobby going. Keep the faith.

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This is starting to become a negative echo chamber of epic proportions. The world is currently undergoing the biggest upheaval since World War 2, of course this is going to seriously impact everything. I am sure this was not what GW had in mind when they laid out their plans for the Lumineth reveals but since they can't produce anything currently it is what it is. I've even seen someone saying that slowly waiting for these spoilers was "a pretty stressful situation" which is frankly ridiculous and an insult to people who actually have to deal with stress and fear these days.

With that said, I took a look back at the articles GW have written so far since a common argument so far has been that they have widely mentioned all the four temples/elements. Take a look at this:

"Following the teachings of Teclis, the Lumineth also learned to communicate with, and even channel, the geomantic spirits of Hysh – specifically those of the mountains, rivers, wind and zenith. This affected every aspect of their existence, from the knowledge they accumulated to the way they fought and the magic they employed. Lumineth warriors who bonded with the spirit of the mountain would be all but immovable in battle, stoically weathering the tide of enemies crashing against them, while their mages would bombard their foes with stones and crush them beneath rocks. This led the Lumineth to develop four distinct sub-cultures within their wider civilisation, each with its own orders of mages and warriors. By dedicating themselves, mind and soul, to the pursuit of furtherance, the Lumineth could better avoid the lure of Slaanesh."

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"This is an Alarith Stonemage – an aelven wizard attuned to the power of the elements. This model isn’t just a brilliant example of what modern miniatures design technology can do (look how delicately they’re balanced!), it’s also a valuable battlefield unit that enhances nearby allies, as well as smiting enemies with gravity manipulating magic!"

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"The Lumineth take their strength from the very land of Hysh, and these aelves follow the aspect of the mountain, from which they inherit part of their might and resilience. That incredible centrepiece model is Avalenor, the Stoneheart King. He is the eldest and the wisest of the mountain spirits that march to war with the aelves. Take a closer look at the model that is redefining what it means to be part of an aelf army."

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"These are the Alarith Stoneguard, the elite infantry of the Lumineth Realm-lords. They fight like immovable objects, wielding magical hammers that crush enemy skulls with a single blow. We hope that you’re ready to start seeing all of your problems as nails."

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"The Lumineth are all about their connection to Hysh. They even fight alongside the very spirits of their realm, so choosing strong and powerful mountainous environments seemed like the best way to really convey their sense of grandeur and the vast magical power at their disposal. They are not the delicate elves of the world-that-was, these guys are pike- and hammer-wielding magical powerhouses with backup from all the geomantic spirits of Hysh – some of which literally represent the mountains themselves!"

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I have omitted sentences where all the elements are mentioned equally, but it's pretty clear that when they mention a specific one it is always the mountain one. They mention how Lumineth bonding with the mountain fight, but not how the other temples fight.
The wizard is "attuned to the power of the elements" but the only element mentioned has to do with gravity and the name is of course Stonemage.

The blurb about "these aelves" following the aspect of the mountain has been read by many as meaning the specific models shown in the mountain preview, but could just as well be referring to the Lumineth army in general.
The Stoneguard are emphasised as THE elite infantry, not one of several.
When drawing the artwork they chose mountainous environments to emphasise the connection to the spirits of the realm (not just one spirit).

All in all I think GW has provided plenty of evidence for this army to only contain the mountain aspect, not the other three. They others are mentioned so nothing is written in stone (…..) but there is a LOT more focus given to the stone part, even from the very beginning of these articles before they had shown off the rock boys.

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37 minutes ago, Thaliontil said:

This. It would be very weird that we would only get 10 warscrolls, with the Lumineth been the "spiritual successor" of one of the most beloved WHFB armies + the long teasing campaign. I would say that there will be a Scinari hero and a Scinari "Ellyrion Reavers". 12 warscrolls, terrain, endless spell and the possibility of allying with other elvish factions such as the Phoenix Temple. Obviously, if the release ends up being only this, I will be disappointed, but I am waiting till we actually get the date of the release to criticize if that is the case. Although I agree with GW handling poorly the communication regarding this army, or even stretching too much the reveal period, I understand that Covid-19 has created a disruption which is very difficult to manage properly (By governments, business or even ourselves in our personal lives). So, let's hope that GW can safely re-start their production soon and see if we get anything else.

I actually did some comparison to OBR and IDK:

OBR: total warscrolls = 17 (of which 4 old so 13 new). New kits = 11.

IDK: total ws = 14 with 11 kits

Hence my prediction would be that we will see some sort of smaller monster or warmachine associated with "Scinari". We will see that the Stoneguard is a dual kit for a Scinari elite unit (with different helms and weapons, I think the cow-helms where made like that to easily distinguish them from the other version on the table top). We will then also see another generic hero that is a dual kit with a named char, i.e. similar to Liege-Kavalos/Zandtos or Akhelian King/ Volturnus for some more choice to use as a General.

I think we wont hear anything really until they have confirmed a date when their factories and shipping are up and running again because they need to keep som dry gunpowder and they simply don't have that much left and in particular since no one knows how long this lock down will continue (could easily be another 6-8 weeks), so they cant afford to continue the drip feed. When they have the date, they will announce pre-release and they will have quite a chunky update to bring up the hype again by revealing the "Scinari" aspect, that will turn out to be either wind or river, quite likely these units will also be a bit less controversial than the hammer/cow aesthetics so they can "end o a safe note".

This would bring us up to 14 warscrolls on 11 kits (i.e. same as OBR/IDK). They will keep Tyrion and the other 2 aspects in their back pocket for the future. But all in all that should make for a pretty decent amount of choice and cool units to build lists from, in particular if they make all of the three basic units decent enough to be viable choices so we avoid the IDK situation of only eels (i.e. their elite) being really playable.

Just some thoughts but I wouldn't go down the despair well just yet :) and as others have said, sure with hindsight this didnt play out that well but no one anticipated how far the effects of corona virus would go, in particular not in Jan when they planned all this. And yes someone made the decision along the way to thin out the content by going with a lowdown every 2nd week and they probably thought that would carry through the crisis but they underestimated how long it would take... so now they kinda ran out of ammunition and hence the lid on until they can open fully again. Thats my thoughts anyways.

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I think a lot of you have voiced what I've been thinking about the uncertainty about the new range a lot more eloquently than I can in English, so I won't go further into it.

While waiting for any models being released I thought it would be fun to tinker around in Blender (3d) program to see if I could create some Lumineth scenery. Here is a screenshot of what I've been working on. I'm currently in the process of trying to prep the file for 3D printing, which is always harder than I expect. But if it works I might make this available for others if it doesn't turn out too expensive. Let me know what you think.

muEF9UAl.png

 

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3 hours ago, Chikout said:

I have absolutely no problem with a drip feed of info in the current times. What has started to bother me is the way the drip feed has happened. If the cathallar was the last model in the range it would absolutely be best to say so. If this is the range I have to work with I can start to plan purchases, possible army lists, colour schemes etc. If not then I have another preview to look forward to in a few weeks. 

Gw loses absolutely nothing by saying one way or the other. The Sons of Behemat preview has been perfectly handled- a little joke in an earlier video, a teaser video with art, an article setting up the lore and a full reveal video with absolute clarity about what the range will contain. As a result the community is extremely excited about that release. 

The Lumineth on the other hand have been have been previewed at no less than 4 major shows ( if we count all the online shows as the Adepticon preview)  and have had fortnightly articles for months and we still don't know the full extent of the range. 

I have asked on twitter, Facebook and Instagram if this is the last model and have got no answer. Anyone else who has asked that question has also been ignored. In the faceboom thread the community team responded to other users making jokes, so they are clearly reading the comments. 

Likewise I and another user who is rather better known than me in the community asked if there would be a Lumineth lowdown article today. Again neither of us got a response. 

It is this silence that bothers me. I am understand that they might want to keep some things back to show in May. That's fine but if Lumineth fans wait till May only to see nothing, it will cause nothing but frustration.

I think it makes sense that you don't get an answer because their employees simply don't know what to tell you. there are a few more models I think but those are reserved for the big drum pre release. so they have instructions to not let that leak but also they cant lie to you and say this is all there is. so they are simply stalled and thus don't say anything

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I don't really feel negative towards GW about this, just bemused.  I don't get why they insist on maintaining release details as though they are top secret data.  But they do, and its just how they roll over the past decade or so.

As I have said, the cavalry are straight up great models and lately even the stone mage has been growing on me since I first saw it.  However, I am not doing the buy seven boxes each of the same two sets again.  I like my IDK, but I don't want to reward that moving forward.

GW doesn't have to hit every release out of the park (the gargants are amazing) but I think they can take a bit of criticism for a while and hopefully it changes something down the road.  And, I think it is unreasonable to be upset at a group for mutually expressing dissatisfaction for a period of time.  Healthy, fun, cathartic discussions are good to go and one of the best reasons to come on these forums in the first place.

Edited by Austin
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1 hour ago, woolf said:

I think it makes sense that you don't get an answer because their employees simply don't know what to tell you. there are a few more models I think but those are reserved for the big drum pre release. so they have instructions to not let that leak but also they cant lie to you and say this is all there is. so they are simply stalled and thus don't say anything

Yes, I’m sure that is the case. I don’t blame the poor folks whose job it is to moderate the Facebook comments, but someone somewhere whether it is the community team management or the marketing team, has made some pretty strange decisions. 

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12 hours ago, Austin said:

 

The number of units already shown would (as boxes) roughly equal OBR and IDK.  They just need to have different options we haven't seen yet.

 

It won't

OBR have 14 new warscroll (not including Nagash) + endless spells and terrain so 17 new warscroll, and numer of kits is 13 (including terrain and spells)

Deepkin have 15 new warscroll + terrain so 16 warscrolls and number of kits is 14 (including terrain)

Lumineth have max 10 warscrolls and 9 kits 

So it's like 20-30% less then OBR and Deepkin. That's why I think we will:

- one kit for Scinari (might be dual) 

- unit for Scinari

- endless spell and terrian 

Which would push numer of warscroll to 16-17 including endless spells and terrain and numer of kits to 13 so roughly  the same as OBR or Deepkin.  

Edited by DantePQ
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22 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

It won't

OBR have 14 new warscroll (not including Nagash) + endless spells and terrain so 17 new warscroll, and numer of kits is 13 (including terrain and spells)

Deepkin have 15 new warscroll + terrain so 16 warscrolls and number of kits is 14 (including terrain)

Lumineth have max 10 warscrolls and 9 kits 

So it's like 20-30% less then OBR and Deepkin. That's why I think we will:

- one kit for Scinari (might be dual) 

- unit for Scinari

- endless spell and terrian 

Which would push numer of warscroll to 16-17 including endless spells and terrain and numer of kits to 13 so roughly  the same as OBR or Deepkin.  

The Deepkin only have 12 kits, not 14.

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15 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

Deepkin have 13 kits including terrain, that 20% more then Lumineth right know. 

1. Leviadon
2. Eidolon aspects
3. Eel cavalry
4. Reavers
5. Thralls
6. Shark
7. Volturnos/King
8. Lotann
9. Soulrender
10. Soulscryer
11. Tidecaster
12. Boat terrain

12 kits. If you count the Start Collecting box as a 13th kit then Lumineth have 10 kits so far counting their starting box, not 9.

Edited by Falkman
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Yeah my bad that's 12 kits for Deepkin and 15 warscrolls 

Lumineth have :

1. Teclis 

2. Holy Cow3

3. Spear

4. Archers

5. Cavalery 

6. Stonegurard 

7. Eltharion 

8. veiled lady 

9. Stonemage 

And that's 10 warscrolls, so anyway you spin it Lumineth so far have 20% less kits and 50% less warscrolls then Deepkin, not to mention OBR.   

 

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2 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

so anyway you spin it Lumineth so far have 20% less kits

 

It's actually an even bigger difference than that. Lumineth have 25% less kits than Deepkin at the moment (12 vs 9). So I definitely think we are getting something more. I don't however think we are getting another entire elemental aspect worth of stuff. Probably another hero or two. I would love another unit of some sort but we'll see. They look playable as is, but will lack a bit of variation when it comes to list construction if this is it.

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8 minutes ago, Incineroar87 said:

Don’t the stone guard have two varieties given the differing hammer heads and there’s a named and unnamed cow, that is 11 Warscrolls so far assuming the second hammer Aelf unit. Hopefully there’s more though.

Different hammer unit isn't separate warscroll. Mortek Guards also have weapon option as well as Heathguard Berzerkers, Witch Elves etc. 

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8 minutes ago, Incineroar87 said:

Don’t the stone guard have two varieties given the differing hammer heads and there’s a named and unnamed cow, that is 11 Warscrolls so far assuming the second hammer Aelf unit. Hopefully there’s more though.

Could just be some visual variety for the unit as well. Impossible to tell if it's a separate weapon choice or just a hammer with a different look.

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7 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

Different hammer unit isn't separate warscroll. Mortek Guards also have weapon option as well as Heathguard Berzerkers, Witch Elves etc. 

Depends to be honest. Kurnoth Hunters are split across three warscrolls but the only difference is weapon options.

Edited by Falkman
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1 minute ago, Falkman said:

Depends to be honest. Kurnoth Hunters are split across three warscrolls but the only difference is weapon options.

yeah that true but if those changes are so little as different hammer head I don't see them being another warscrolls, but could be both ways surely. 

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3 hours ago, woolf said:

...

Hence my prediction would be that we will see some sort of smaller monster or warmachine associated with "Scinari". We will see that the Stoneguard is a dual kit for a Scinari elite unit (with different helms and weapons, I think the cow-helms where made like that to easily distinguish them from the other version on the table top). We will then also see another generic hero that is a dual kit with a named char, i.e. similar to Liege-Kavalos/Zandtos or Akhelian King/ Volturnus for some more choice to use as a General.

I think we wont hear anything really until they have confirmed a date when their factories and shipping are up and running again because they need to keep som dry gunpowder and they simply don't have that much left and in particular since no one knows how long this lock down will continue (could easily be another 6-8 weeks), so they cant afford to continue the drip feed. When they have the date, they will announce pre-release and they will have quite a chunky update to bring up the hype again by revealing the "Scinari" aspect, that will turn out to be either wind or river, quite likely these units will also be a bit less controversial than the hammer/cow aesthetics so they can "end o a safe note".

This would bring us up to 14 warscrolls on 11 kits (i.e. same as OBR/IDK). They will keep Tyrion and the other 2 aspects in their back pocket for the future. But all in all that should make for a pretty decent amount of choice and cool units to build lists from, in particular if they make all of the three basic units decent enough to be viable choices so we avoid the IDK situation of only eels (i.e. their elite) being really playable.

Just some thoughts but I wouldn't go down the despair well just yet :) and as others have said, sure with hindsight this didnt play out that well but no one anticipated how far the effects of corona virus would go, in particular not in Jan when they planned all this. And yes someone made the decision along the way to thin out the content by going with a lowdown every 2nd week and they probably thought that would carry through the crisis but they underestimated how long it would take... so now they kinda ran out of ammunition and hence the lid on until they can open fully again. Thats my thoughts anyways.

I think it’s unlikely that Scinari is connected to an elemental sub-culture (wind or water). The Alarith heroes/behemoth prominently show the affiliated mountain rune on their models, while the Scinari Cathaller just has the symbol of doom (Elthrai) on the model. Also the description of her function is something that cuts across all of the Lumineth, has nothing to do with an element, while also placing her a bit apart from the rest of society. 

There could be more Scinari units, but I think then Scinari would be more of a similar category to Vanari (for example Vanari having more of a Tyrionic influence, while Scinari being more Teclian). 

If at all, then maybe zenith would be the most fitting element. 

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I was wondering if the release pattern maybe could be more like the sisters of battle. The amount of hype building is almost similar and the SoB started out with a limited edition box and then it took a long time for different kits to be released. I think they still aren’t complete. They still miss the seraphim (flying sisters) I think? So maybe Lumineth were meant to start releasing in April and then the rest would have been spread out? 
to be honest I don’t keep track of the 40k releases closely, but I thought the first sisters box hit in December 2019 and the last kit would have been released last month if I’m not mistaken? 

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29 minutes ago, LuminethMage said:

I think it’s unlikely that Scinari is connected to an elemental sub-culture (wind or water). The Alarith heroes/behemoth prominently show the affiliated mountain rune on their models, while the Scinari Cathaller just has the symbol of doom (Elthrai) on the model. Also the description of her function is something that cuts across all of the Lumineth, has nothing to do with an element, while also placing her a bit apart from the rest of society. 

There could be more Scinari units, but I think then Scinari would be more of a similar category to Vanari (for example Vanari having more of a Tyrionic influence, while Scinari being more Teclian). 

If at all, then maybe zenith would be the most fitting element. 

hmm ye maybe u are right, I actually didn't consider so much the model itself, just took note that we have 3 units named Alarith and that seems to be clearly connected to mountain, we know there are 4 elements and releasing half would make more sense than releasing a quarter and then I just latched on to us so far having one support hero with prefix Scinari so I thought it made sense for that to be one of the other 3. could for sure be zenith, I just thought that maybe closer to Tyrion who I do think will be reserved for a later 2nd release.

also we have 2 banner symbols, the yak and the 'Phoenix?' so would kinda make sense there is another piece to this puzzle, again also given all the focus on symmetry being a thing here..

anyways some fun speculation and we will see eventually :D

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