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Aos 2 - Lumineth Realm-Lords Discussion


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4 hours ago, Clan's Cynic said:

The new Warriors of Chaos SC(!) was pretty 'normal'. I think between the overwhelmingly positive response to that, the early LRL reveals and the success of Cities of Sigmar will send a clear message there's a demand for less over-the-top designs.

We already had a whole set of STD, same with Cities that was a matter of rolling together other older factions. So they weren’t pushing new models in fact outside the SC was anything new added to either faction? (Not being an ****** it’s a genuine question as something maybe slipping my mind). 
 

when we look at armies that are brand new concepts I don’t think we have anything bar new zany wacky ideas. Both new dwarf armies moved away from the old concept. Sylvaneth are not wood elves. I think DoK are similar to Lumineth in that they have some regular elves still and some wacky stuff. IDK is all wacky. 
 

FEC was a step away from conventional death although not that extreme. I guess nighthaunt maybe the most normal but again they were an expansion on an established force. 
 

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1 hour ago, Koradrel of Chrace said:

Honestly for me, it came down to we used to have really awesome preditor animals for most of our allies, to having one if the biggest prey animals in this update.  And yes, you could argue that in other culture the ox or cow or yak has deep cultural significance, or that the in game explanation is a mythical immortal beast.  But the High Elf race was THE Dragon race.  We had the Dragonlord Imrik himself, who could command even other races' dragons.  It just feels like a step down for me to go from Dragonlord to Bull Master.

@Thiagoma That picture is also probably my favorite piece of Warhammer artwork ever.  That was my phone backrground for a long time until my kids came along!

Lorewise Imrik and Dragons took Malerions side not Tyrion. And then even with Teclis around Imirk became Malekith’s best and most trusted general. Their storyline is quite awesome in End Times.

Tyrion and Teclis didnt have any connection to Dragons whatsoever. 
And Lumineth are Tyrion and Teclis Aelves recreating their version of High Elves so I dont get that Dragon connection they didnt ever had. 

Edited by DantePQ
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If you want Dragons then that is Malerions deal,I don't know why that surprises anyone?  I fully think our wind aspect is likely to be some sort of eagle although I have no idea about river.  The only thing I have an issue with so far is the big fleshy cows but that will be easy enough to fix with a stoney paintjob and some light conversion

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1 hour ago, Reuben Parker said:

We already had a whole set of STD, same with Cities that was a matter of rolling together other older factions. So they weren’t pushing new models in fact outside the SC was anything new added to either faction? (Not being an ****** it’s a genuine question as something maybe slipping my mind). 
 


 

The only new things added to STD was the Warcry warbands and monsters, but besides that I don't think anything was added.

 

In terms of aesthetics, I think the Giant Bulls are fine. They are AOS mystical beasts, like the bull of Minos in our own mythology or the minotaur. Bulls have been seen as fierce monsters for ages in myth and legends, but for some reason everyone in these forums are just "lol cows are stupid" when it comes to the giant stone spirits we have. It's really weird to me. 

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3 hours ago, Athrawes said:

High Elf Fans: What??? They Promised us new High elves, not cow elves, look at how impractical and over the top those helmets are, nothing at all like the high elves we all love!

Meanwhile:

 

 

high-elves-new-release-6.jpg

iwStCo4.jpg

Anyone who is both complaining about how over the top the helms are, and saying they wanted something more high elven has some serious cognitive dissonance. 

Eh, the problem with the Hammer Aelves is that their helmets are hideous and their giant croquet mallets look goofy. You're cherry picking some of the most extreme examples from the High Elf line and they still all look better than the Hammer Bros aesthetically, although the model quality is obviously lower. Some people will disagree.

At the end of the day,  when it comes to aesthetics you can argue with people all day that their tastes aren't "logical"from your perspective and it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference.  People like the way it looks or they don't, that's all there is to it.  The Lumineth have been getting mixed reviews from their first model reveal, (Teclis mostly) and the criticism has increased since then as some people find themselves increasingly disappointed with each reveal. Some of it is undoubtedly inflated expectations, but some of the design choices have been very questionable, to say the least.

The thing that baffles me with the Lumineth is that some models just clearly don't work as designed. The weird unbalanced composition of the Teclis model, for example. It's puzzling that a miniature company as experienced as GW rolled that out as their big centerpiece model and no one said "It just looks a bit naff, don't it? What part of this model is supposed to be the center? Why does Teclis look so rigid?"

Likewise the Hammerers Helmets are Bizarrely T-Shaped, which is the kind of hat profile you don't see outside of Chaos Dwarves, normally.  The Cow Head adds to the overall feeling of goofiness, but it's the silhouette that's most jarring.

 

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10 minutes ago, xking said:

Hasn't warhammer always  kind of been goofy? dwarf miners had giant  candles on their heads.    I think people need to stop calling something  "hideous" just because they don't like it.  

I just got a few miners today, their candles are less 2 mm high with a 1mm flame (other versions may differ). The head and helmet of the hammerdudes are as long as their bodies.

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I think another problem is those older models were made using older sculpting and mold technology.  It made getting getting proportions a little tough, especially if you wanted descent detail out of the older molds.

But that isn't the case with these new models.  They have been doing fantastic jobs with the newer models.  The Dawnriders I really love.  Which is why having helmets the same size as the rest of your body makes no sense for these models.  Heck, why not sculpt the helmet to look as though they are looking out through the bull's face?

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5 hours ago, Thiagoma said:

Also, Eltharion look awesome and probably his look is related to other models as well.

This is what I think more people could do, try to stay positive if you like at least some of the models so far. We have only seen one out of the 4 elemental factions, and it might just have been the one which is the most separated from the old HE style. Either, if not both of wind and zenith should have some affiliation with flying units or monsters. GW has also written so often about the winged creatures in Hysh that it would be really strange if we don't see any flying units for the Lumineth in the end. During the interview last Saturday you could see that they pretty much have gone along with such story elements stated about Hysh in the Core Book, Malign Sorcery etc.

 

4 hours ago, DantePQ said:

Lorewise Imrik and Dragons took Malerions side not Tyrion. And then even with Teclis around Imirk became Malekith’s best and most trusted general. Their storyline is quite awesome in End Times.

Tyrion and Teclis didnt have any connection to Dragons whatsoever. 
And Lumineth are Tyrion and Teclis Aelves recreating their version of High Elves so I dont get that Dragon connection they didnt ever had. 

Just because of some fluff in the end-times doesn't mean people don't all of sudden associate HE with dragons anymore, which were a key feature of them almost from the start until the end. And almost nothing of said End Times fluff was carried over to AoS. It's not like they threw Order Draconis and Order Serpentis together. Teclis also hadn't that much to do with cavalry, but still managed to imagine horse cavalry for the Lumineth (and it was Teclis who did that not Tyrion according to GW). You can't fault people for expecting to see some dragons with new HE. 

That said, I also think we won't see (m)any dragons with the Lumineth. Maybe with the exception of the Sun Spirit which could be this phoenix-dragon merged monster that we can see on the Danwrider flag. Probably this has more to do with GW having decided to give the Lumineth a more pan-asian cultural background which doesn't have much of a connection to winged dragons, than with End Times fluff (pure speculation of course). I think the flying creatures we'll see for he Lumineth will have feathered wings, not bat wings.

I really hope though we get at least one more of the elemental factions with this release. If there won't be any flying monsters (except for Teclis Moon Spirit), GW can't really complain if some of the old HE fans would be disappointed. 

 

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3 hours ago, xking said:

Yeah, but the hammer elves have the strength of the mountain spirits.    The giant  candles still look goofy to me.

But why did you make the equation? One is 10% of total height, light, and allows you to stand shoulder to shoulder, the other is 30% of total height, and none of those considerations.

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8 minutes ago, xking said:

To show that warhammer has always had silly or goofy things in it.    I think people are blowing this up, Just play the units you like or cut the horns off.

In the choice between a bit goofy, but possible and with a clear use case on one hand, or something that will be a massive hindrance in everything you do without a clear usecase...

Well, you know the answer.

Once again, elves may turn me away from Warhammer alltogether. I would have a hard time not laughing at them if I saw them on the table, regardless of the skill of the painter.

Edited by zilberfrid
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4 minutes ago, xking said:

 Come on, laughing is good for your health.

It is, but I'd prefer to laugh at intentional jokes, and not at bad design someone took a lot of effort to salvage in painting.

This is as bad as the Lord Relictor, and shows the designers' thought processes are alien to me.

I can try Tzeench, where the odd designs of the horrors, screamers and flamers are compensated by the Tsaangors, Thaumaturge and Cultists. It is also fitting for Tzeench to be the odd one. Then there are a few salvagable warbands, but most of the AoS design is so weird and devoid of thoughts on how it would work, I don't think it's worth paying GW's prices.

Maybe they'll surprise me one day, but when I got the old dwarfs yesterday and see the new designs, I don't have much hope. The single design of the Old World did not really help either.

Oh well, it has entertained me for almost a year, CoS luckily is a self contained book I can play with, my guards will be usable in d&d and other gmes, and I'll still finish Kharadron.

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7 hours ago, Damosane said:

I fully think our wind aspect is likely to be some sort of eagle although I have no idea about river.

Oh man, if you thought the backlash against the bull heads was bad, wait until the River models come out and they're all hippopotamus themed.

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30 minutes ago, Kadeton said:

Oh man, if you thought the backlash against the bull heads was bad, wait until the River models come out and they're all hippopotamus themed.

I kind of want it, to see hippo themed elves. Even better, they had the new Sons of Behemat be croc themed so they will fight over a river delta ;).

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9 hours ago, Koradrel of Chrace said:

Yeah, my army at the moment is probably going to be the other three units shown, plus Eltharion.  My main man was my first High Elf model, it would be only fitting for him to be my first Lumineth model!

Mine as well!

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I think wrong assumption is that they are AoS "High Elves", lorewise and even how they are marketed they are Tyrion&Teclis reimagining of their vision of High Elves, hence why there is no dragons. As Tyrion and Teclis had no connection with dragons whatsoever. 

And majority of End Times lore carried over to AoS - even the construction of this setting is based on End Times. 

- Nagash, Arkhan, Manfred story 

- Morathi 

- stuff in Cities of Sigmar 

etc. So it makes all the sense that Malerion's army will have all kinds of Dragons and Lumineth have their unique thing.

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I mean, I get the helmets aren’t for everyone, I personally don’t see myself using these units (which is fine as I always liked more “core unit” centric armies)... but some of these responses guys.... people wanting to quit AoS, people jumping off the Lumineth bandwagon, people declaring a degradation of the skills of sculptors at GW.......

 

Over some decoration of a HELMET? I’m getting flashbacks to people burning armies of plastic soldiers.....

 

If you like them, cool, if you don’t, cool! But it’s getting a little worrying just how much vitriol this is irking up (in the minority, most of you guys are being super cool about this).

 

Maybe tomorrow we will have a better idea if this kind of design is going to be an aspect or systemic in the new line... until then, you know, take it easy.

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7 hours ago, Kadeton said:

Oh man, if you thought the backlash against the bull heads was bad, wait until the River models come out and they're all hippopotamus themed.

Oh man don't even,  although they are one of the most dangerous animals on the planet.

River really has me stumped, even the Greek god of rivers was mostly represented as a bull man 😂

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Seeing as this army seems to be drawing a great deal from eastern symbolism, river spirits in Korea (imoogi), China (Dragons are considered spirits of water), and Japan (famously Yamato no Orochi) tend to be water serpent-like, wingless dragons. Honestly, if Dragons have any role at all with Lumineth, it will be be as river spirits.

Something like the Chinese Gonggong would be my personal choice, as it is an Asiatic serpentine Dragon with the head of a man, and I think a water dragon with one of the Lumineth Face masks  in the shape of an elf would look incredible. 

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Can‘t be done, you heard Dante, dragons are the sole property of Malerion, and Teclis wouldn’t even know what a dragon is (nor apparently could a dragon-like spirit exist in Hysh because Teclis doesn’t know of dragons, but those spirits were super lucky he was all into sphinxes and oxen back in the day). 

That’s a good idea, one of the Sentinels in the Gama release photo has a symbol of something like a Gonggong on his breast. But it’s so hard to see, could be something totally different. 

I really just hope we get one more element with this release. I really want to see what they have come up with for the rest of the elements. 

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I love how many folks on this forum are highly knowledgeable and accomplished artists, rules writers, figure designers, graphic designers, folklorists, media and communications experts, literary critics and probably great cooks to boot. Not fans, *experts.*

it’s humbling being in the presence of the greats. To hear what is objectively bad design, art etc. thank you for your service. 

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1 hour ago, FlatTooth said:

I love how many folks on this forum are highly knowledgeable and accomplished artists, rules writers, figure designers, graphic designers, folklorists, media and communications experts, literary critics and probably great cooks to boot. Not fans, *experts.*

it’s humbling being in the presence of the greats. To hear what is objectively bad design, art etc. thank you for your service. 

But why start a flame war?

 

I like the models and the theme  but equally I can understand why others don’t. 

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5 hours ago, ArchaicArc said:

I mean, I get the helmets aren’t for everyone, I personally don’t see myself using these units (which is fine as I always liked more “core unit” centric armies)... but some of these responses guys.... people wanting to quit AoS, people jumping off the Lumineth bandwagon, people declaring a degradation of the skills of sculptors at GW.......

 

Over some decoration of a HELMET? I’m getting flashbacks to people burning armies of plastic soldiers.....

 

If you like them, cool, if you don’t, cool! But it’s getting a little worrying just how much vitriol this is irking up (in the minority, most of you guys are being super cool about this).

 

Maybe tomorrow we will have a better idea if this kind of design is going to be an aspect or systemic in the new line... until then, you know, take it easy.

All the people raining hatred down on these models will be the first to buy them lol

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