Aos 2 - Lumineth Realm-Lords Discussion

[Aelfric]

15 minutes ago, LuminethMage said:

I also still think the Phoenix Temple might be part of the zenith faction. The Phoenix Temple fits in thematically really well with the Lumineth. 

I wonder if the Phoenix/Gryphon may be the elemental aspect of Air and some sort of amphibious reptile ( water dragon?) representing River.  The Sun and Moon presumably are orbiting the Realm in some way, whilst being distinct bodies in their own right, so it may be that they are connected to Teclis and Tyrion only.  They are both sources of Light in some way (given that AOS moons do not always work naturally), which made me think that Zenith would be light.  

In terms of heirarchy, it is possible that there is none beyond T&T being at the top.  This civil war that they had which almost ruined the realm itself may have led to an abandonment of heirarchy in favour of four equal but distinct schools of discipline that now work in collboration with one another to repair and protect the Realm.

(If I'm honest - this is akin to what I would have liked Wanderers to be, but I'm happy to start again)

[LuminethMage]

Yup, in a way I think T&T being part of one of the 4 elements would not make that much sense. They represent all of them (that's what they also made clear in the Teclis model, where Zenith doesn't have a special place, he mastered all). The Moon Spirit also has it's own symbol which is not connected to zenith, whereas the Mountain Spirit (and King) just has the Mountain Rune as its symbol. Btw. GW posted this : ). The Sun Spirit also has its own rune, not connected to any other. So only T&T (and by association the Sun and Moon Spirits) would make perfect sense. 

I agree, the 4 elements seem not to be on a hierarchy. They always talked about sub-cultures, not castes or similar vocabulary which implies ranks. 

Light would make really a lot of sense for zenith, and they might go with that. But it would make less sense in another way. The other 3 are clearly just fancy names for the traditional elements: earth, water, air, and then light? Not fire? They could go with the Phoenix for air, they also for some reason didn't associate Phoenixes with Realm of Fire, so it's possible. Traditionally though the Phoenix a symbol of the Sun (and fire of course). So my guess would be the Sun Spirit is the phoenix-dragon monster we saw on the Dawnrider banner (again Sun is part of the name of the unit). And comes with Tyrion. Wind I think would be connected to another wind creature. But how this all connects with Zenith, I have no idea.

On the other hand on some of the pictures the Phoenix emerges out of a burning brazier, very similar to what the veiled lady is holding. So it could be wind. : )

Really looking forward to how this all comes together. We also have the different nations within the Lumineth. I guess all the nations are made up of the 4 sub-cultures, but it could be that one predominates some of the nations. 

And they just showed this on FB: 

[Gecktron]

45 minutes ago, LuminethMage said:

 

Looks fantastic! I hadn't planned on starting the Lumineth (the spearmen and Riders were pretty boring in my opinion) but the mountain aelfs look pretty tempting, ngl. Someone suggested painting them like Buddhist monks, which is a pretty cool idea. 

I hope the other aspects are just as out-there. 

Edited March 30, 2020 by Gecktron

[Sttufe]

22 minutes ago, Gecktron said:

Looks fantastic! I hadn't planned on starting the Lumineth (the spearmen and Riders were pretty boring in my opinion) but the mountain aelfs look pretty tempting, ngl. Someone suggested painting them like Buddhist monks, which is a pretty cool idea. 

I hope the other aspects are just as out-there. 

I love dwarfs and would never betray them so, and I was a bit bored by the stuff coming initially, but the cow dude, the hammerers, and the cool mage guy might have just got me into this faction, if only to wage war against my Kharadron. I don't like Teclis and the cavalry/pikemen, i may just give them swords or something, but the archers were pretty cool.

Edited March 30, 2020 by Sttufe

[Acid_Nine]

2 hours ago, LuminethMage said:

 

What an absolute U N I T.

 

seriously, is that how big that thing is supposed to be? Because that looks like something out of titanicus!

[LuminethMage]

Yeah, makes even more sense now that they call the two-handed version a "World Hammer". I hope they also have a picture where this thing goes toe to toe with a demon army. Even a few Orruks might go "ok, that's legit"! 

I also love the mage. The hand posture even seems to say to the Mountain King "wait, I got this". Hahaha

[ShadowSwordmaster]

4 hours ago, LuminethMage said:

Yup, in a way I think T&T being part of one of the 4 elements would not make that much sense. They represent all of them (that's what they also made clear in the Teclis model, where Zenith doesn't have a special place, he mastered all). The Moon Spirit also has it's own symbol which is not connected to zenith, whereas the Mountain Spirit (and King) just has the Mountain Rune as its symbol. Btw. GW posted this : ). The Sun Spirit also has its own rune, not connected to any other. So only T&T (and by association the Sun and Moon Spirits) would make perfect sense. 

I agree, the 4 elements seem not to be on a hierarchy. They always talked about sub-cultures, not castes or similar vocabulary which implies ranks. 

Light would make really a lot of sense for zenith, and they might go with that. But it would make less sense in another way. The other 3 are clearly just fancy names for the traditional elements: earth, water, air, and then light? Not fire? They could go with the Phoenix for air, they also for some reason didn't associate Phoenixes with Realm of Fire, so it's possible. Traditionally though the Phoenix a symbol of the Sun (and fire of course). So my guess would be the Sun Spirit is the phoenix-dragon monster we saw on the Dawnrider banner (again Sun is part of the name of the unit). And comes with Tyrion. Wind I think would be connected to another wind creature. But how this all connects with Zenith, I have no idea.

On the other hand on some of the pictures the Phoenix emerges out of a burning brazier, very similar to what the veiled lady is holding. So it could be wind. : )

Really looking forward to how this all comes together. We also have the different nations within the Lumineth. I guess all the nations are made up of the 4 sub-cultures, but it could be that one predominates some of the nations. 

And they just showed this on FB: 

I knew the elves would make the titans in AoS.

[JackStreicher]

20 hours ago, DantePQ said:

 

That's what I will do(not my idea found it somewhere), just need to find proper head for Celennar. 

That actually looks cool. Yet I doubt you can even remove the mountain from its back.

[Lucur]

That artwork is fan-fething-tastic!

But it reinforces my feeling about the two hammers, i really prefer the singular large one.

[hughwyeth]

13 hours ago, Damosane said:

I don't get this pushback about Elves and hammers either to be honest..if it was good enough for Tolkien and middle earth then why is it not fitting enough for Age of Sigmar? 

 

Also they can presumably control rock so why would they use a weapon that wasnt effectively a large rock on a stick? 

Also why do elves forever need to abide by the same generic themes for all time? Hundreds of companies pump out generic elves with thin blades etc. Buy them if you want the same thing again and again. Hope they bring out skinny dwarves with katanas just to annoy the internet. 

[NorthernNurgling]

As cool is it sounds to imagine there are 4 fleshed out subcultures within Hysh, I'm wondering if we really will see much more than what has been shown. 

I'm only basing this on Ossiarch Bonereapers, but they gave us 6 characters and 4 units, not including the dual-kit variants. They also gave us 2 large single model kits, then they folded the Morghast, Arkhan and Nagash into the range as it appears on the webstore. The same rough number count holds true for the Idoneth Deepkin in terms of their model range.

So far for Lumineth, GW have given us 4 units and 4 characters (including the veiled lady) plus one large single model kit (classing Teclis as a character for the purposes of this). If we assume there's a couple of dual kits in what we have seen so far, we are looking at possibly 1 more large single model, and one or two more characters. They might fold Phoenix Temple into the faction similar to how the Morghast etc. can be in LoN or OBR. That gives us a nice range, comparable to other AOS factions, but leaves very little room to flesh out 3 more subcultures. It also means they can comfortably tease the last of the range of April 4th as they had scheduled. I'm a little "meh" when it comes to endless spells and scenery, but we might get that too.

Also, to those speculating that Tyrion etc. will be a future release, they would have to be their own distinct faction going by GW's previous logic. I think the Tyrionic and Teclian factions will have a close relationship but be distinct factions, in a similar relationship that the Chaos armies have with Slaves to Darkness.  Then if you have Malerion's army branch out into a similar relationship with a revamped Daughters of Khaine, you get the kind of symmetry that GW loves.

[Kokoshi]

14 minutes ago, NorthernNurgling said:

As cool is it sounds to imagine there are 4 fleshed out subcultures within Hysh, I'm wondering if we really will see much more than what has been shown. 

I'm only basing this on Ossiarch Bonereapers, but they gave us 6 characters and 4 units, not including the dual-kit variants. They also gave us 2 large single model kits, then they folded the Morghast, Arkhan and Nagash into the range as it appears on the webstore. The same rough number count holds true for the Idoneth Deepkin in terms of their model range.

So far for Lumineth, GW have given us 4 units and 4 characters (including the veiled lady) plus one large single model kit (classing Teclis as a character for the purposes of this). If we assume there's a couple of dual kits in what we have seen so far, we are looking at possibly 1 more large single model, and one or two more characters. They might fold Phoenix Temple into the faction similar to how the Morghast etc. can be in LoN or OBR. That gives us a nice range, comparable to other AOS factions, but leaves very little room to flesh out 3 more subcultures. It also means they can comfortably tease the last of the range of April 4th as they had scheduled. I'm a little "meh" when it comes to endless spells and scenery, but we might get that too.

Also, to those speculating that Tyrion etc. will be a future release, they would have to be their own distinct faction going by GW's previous logic. I think the Tyrionic and Teclian factions will have a close relationship but be distinct factions, in a similar relationship that the Chaos armies have with Slaves to Darkness.  Then if you have Malerion's army branch out into a similar relationship with a revamped Daughters of Khaine, you get the kind of symmetry that GW loves.

Unfortunately the preview showed us a full picture with every teased/announced unit so far, such as the one we see in Battletomes  (at the end of the "miniature" part of the tome). These twin-page pictures usually contain most of the army range, baring 1-2 more units...

I think the lore will speak of all four elemental subcultures but the initial release will be more or less what we saw. It's quite the same amount of new units we get for new factions when they launch. 

Edited March 30, 2020 by Kokoshi

[michu]

5 hours ago, hughwyeth said:

Also why do elves forever need to abide by the same generic themes for all time? Hundreds of companies pump out generic elves with thin blades etc. Buy them if you want the same thing again and again. Hope they bring out skinny dwarves with katanas just to annoy the internet. 

Exactly. Down with stereotypes. Hammer in the hand of an Aelf is as graceful as longsword.

 

[CommissarRotke]

44 minutes ago, Kokoshi said:

Unfortunately the preview showed us a full picture with every teased/announced unit so far, such as the one we see in Battletomes  (at the end of the "miniature" part of the tome). These twin-page pictures usually contain most of the army range, baring 1-2 more units...

it does look like there could be more units on both sides of the picture, though I'm not sure if there'll be any more heroes depending on placement. While this is already a big release, having only a single-kit elite unit feels meh if this week's reveals are only going to be a hero and...something

[NorthernNurgling]

3 hours ago, Kokoshi said:

Unfortunately the preview showed us a full picture with every teased/announced unit so far, such as the one we see in Battletomes  (at the end of the "miniature" part of the tome). These twin-page pictures usually contain most of the army range, baring 1-2 more units...

I think the lore will speak of all four elemental subcultures but the initial release will be more or less what we saw. It's quite the same amount of new units we get for new factions when they launch. 

 

I agree but I'm not sure why do we all keep talking about an initial release? I can't think of a single AoS army that got released in waves apart from Stormcast. And if that was the model for updating an army, why have we not seen 2nd wave release for Idoneth, or DoK or Fyreslayers etc? I worry that GW has accidentally over-promised with all their teasers and drip-feeding and that a lot of players (including myself) will just feel deflated if that picture is indeed the entire roster in the battletome. 

[Kokoshi]

38 minutes ago, NorthernNurgling said:

I agree but I'm not sure why do we all keep talking about an initial release? I can't think of a single AoS army that got released in waves apart from Stormcast. And if that was the model for updating an army, why have we not seen 2nd wave release for Idoneth, or DoK or Fyreslayers etc? I worry that GW has accidentally over-promised with all their teasers and drip-feeding and that a lot of players (including myself) will just feel deflated if that picture is indeed the entire roster in the battletome. 

Anyway I also feel very enthusiastic about what we've seen so far, lot of iconic bits and lot of new ideas, but I'm a bit worried it might not go a lot further. It would be a huge release otherwise, much bigger than any new faction seen so far !
On the other hand they opened up so many possibilities. Well, it could be a partial release with secondary boxes or heroes to add some extra units.
Or the whole range could be cut into two display pictures : one centered around Teclis and one around Tyrion.
Or there could be some double kits (although mountain elite warriors have some very specific armor that would not befit any other subfaction imo).

Edited March 30, 2020 by Kokoshi

[madmac]

If we are getting a separated release, I still expect we will get at least two elements in the initial wave of models. Setting up this whole elaborate system of elemental paths and launching with 25% of them on release, the rest to be filled in later is loony.

OTOH, if we get say Mountain and River and Teclis first, and then later Tyrion+Zenith and Air, that sounds a bit more plausible.

[Icarion]

26 minutes ago, Kokoshi said:

Anyway I also feel very enthusiastic about what we've seen so far, lot of iconic bits and lot of new ideas, but I'm a bit worried it might not go a lot further. It would be a huge release otherwise, much bigger than any new faction seen so far !
On the other hand they opened up so many possibilities. Well, it could be a partial release with secondary boxes or heroes to add some extra units.
Or the whole range could be cut into two display pictures : one centered around Teclis and one around Tyrion.
Or there could be some double kits (although mountain elite warriors have some very specific armor that would not befit any other subfaction imo).

I mean Including the wind/river mage scene in teasers and the full army photo, that only brings the Lumineth up to 9 kits so far for the release.  In comparison (and not counting endless spells or terrain pieces) Idoneth got 11 kits, Gloomspite (an update but still a large update) received 11 new kits, Ossiarch Bonereapers received 11 new kits, and Nighthaunt  received 15 kits. 

 

As is reasonable, lets consider Nighthaunt as an outlier since it was a flagship line for 2nd ed. and thus had more support/push fit kits, that still means Lumineth could receive 2 more unseen kits if they are to be a release the size of most current new faction releases.

Of course, there is no law that all releases must be the same size, and there have been smaller outliers recently like Hedonites of Slaanesh, but consider how long GW planned to stretch out the teaser ramp up for lumineth (it started in January and they had planned a spring release so likely April, that still means 4 months of teasing without adding more time to account for Covid19), it seems odd that would do that for what would end up being a smaller than average release.

My money is still on on getting another elemental order fleshed out, and a generic mounted hero like most other factions get. I think it likely that the Alarith Stoneguard are a duel kit able to build one other order's elite unit. That means we could still get some sort of additional Elemental spirit, and a mounted lord which would still only bring us up to par at 11 kits.

This Saturday should be pretty interesting!

[ArchaicArc]

The next reveal is Saturday? Are there any other dates confirmed after this?

 

[Icarion]

Only this Saturday thus far has been confirmed. When adepticon was canceled they said they would have warhammer o line previews on March 28th and April 4th.

[LuminethMage]

I’m really in two minds about this.

On the one hand, they even in the last reveal used idioms like “scratched the surface”, “just dipped toe in the water”. They also have been going on about Teclian and Tyrionic elements the sun spirit and all kind things in almost every lowdown (if you look at the Dawnrider and Exemplars articles specifically it’s almost impossible to think Tyrion isn’t part of this release). I also would find it strange if they don’t have something up the sleeve at the end of the reveal circle. Some people also mentioned that this would be a really big faction.

On the other hand, every rumour engine, detailed story piece, art, and the terrain sculpts we have seen were all about the mountain faction. Even the ones where we spotted stuff they didn’t want us to see, like the hammer unit. And they have now for months slowly released units from this faction. So it could easily be that’s basically it. We only get another hero or two, a conversion we haven’t seen yet and maybe a war machine. 

I hope that we get one more element at least. Even if they incorporate the Phoenix Temple, which from their background fit perfectly with the Lumineth. The veiled lady with the brazier could even fit with them. They often depicted a brazier brazier together with a Phoenix and her closed eyes could be a reference to Tyrion (and we have Frostheart Phoenixes soceven the blue wouldn’t be too off). I just think after all the teases about Tyrion and Phoenixes, flying creatures in Hysh etc., it would be really strange if the Lumineth range would not include him and don’t even have a flying non-hero unit.

But if they don’t even give a hint about something like that in the next preview, then I guess we won’t see it this time at least. 

[Icarion]

There are two big reasons I think Tyrion is extremely unlikely at this point. 
 

From a design standpoint, Tyrion would be the third giant model in the range after Teclis and mountain spirit and unless this range truly is more massive than any other new faction, that would make the army roster absurdly top heavy with so few basic units to support all the god tier ones.

 

from a lore stand point, everything that makes the culture unique has been described to stem from Teclis’ teachings. He created the faction, he restructured it after the civil war. GW has occasionally mentioned the martial influences of Tyrion in the heritage of this army. But every mention of who leads the army, created it, shaped it ect. has been Teclis. Tyrion plays a big part in the lore of this army we gave been given, but he has never been mentioned in a way I would describe as more than passive. It has always been Teclis. 
 

I want this army to be incredibly massive because I love what I’ve seen so far, but Tyrion just seems like wishful thinking at this point in time.
 

I don’t want people to have more of their expectations dashed, especially when that seems to be a problem for the wider community of people who were initially invested in this army. 

 

[Sleepers]

I’ve not seen this discussed on this thread yet, but sorry if it has.

Isnt the latest rumour engine definitely Lumineth?

Could easily be another hero, or alternate build for the Alarith Stoneguard kit.

[Damosane]

1 hour ago, LuminethMage said:

I’m really in two minds about this.

On the one hand, they even in the last reveal used idioms like “scratched the surface”, “just dipped toe in the water”. They also have been going on about Teclian and Tyrionic elements the sun spirit and all kind things in almost every lowdown (if you look at the Dawnrider and Exemplars articles specifically it’s almost impossible to think Tyrion isn’t part of this release). I also would find it strange if they don’t have something up the sleeve at the end of the reveal circle. Some people also mentioned that this would be a really big faction.

On the other hand, every rumour engine, detailed story piece, art, and the terrain sculpts we have seen were all about the mountain faction. Even the ones where we spotted stuff they didn’t want us to see, like the hammer unit. And they have now for months slowly released units from this faction. So it could easily be that’s basically it. We only get another hero or two, a conversion we haven’t seen yet and maybe a war machine. 

I hope that we get one more element at least. Even if they incorporate the Phoenix Temple, which from their background fit perfectly with the Lumineth. The veiled lady with the brazier could even fit with them. They often depicted a brazier brazier together with a Phoenix and her closed eyes could be a reference to Tyrion (and we have Frostheart Phoenixes soceven the blue wouldn’t be too off). I just think after all the teases about Tyrion and Phoenixes, flying creatures in Hysh etc., it would be really strange if the Lumineth range would not include him and don’t even have a flying non-hero unit.

But if they don’t even give a hint about something like that in the next preview, then I guess we won’t see it this time at least. 

I strongly think scratch the surface and toe in the water imply we are getting river, honestly river being sort of..chargey movey guys to the mountains immovable object would be cool. Tyrion coming later with wind and zenith makes me think that perhaps he will bring aerial units and stuff which would be a great expansion. 

[LuminethMage]

1 hour ago, Athrawes said:

There are two big reasons I think Tyrion is extremely unlikely at this point. 
....

from a lore stand point, everything that makes the culture unique has been described to stem from Teclis’ teachings. He created the faction, he restructured it after the civil war. GW has occasionally mentioned the martial influences of Tyrion in the heritage of this army. But every mention of who leads the army, created it, shaped it ect. has been Teclis. Tyrion plays a big part in the lore of this army we gave been given, but he has never been mentioned in a way I would describe as more than passive. It has always been Teclis. 
I want this army to be incredibly massive because I love what I’ve seen so far, but Tyrion just seems like wishful thinking at this point in time.
I don’t want people to have more of their expectations dashed, especially when that seems to be a problem for the wider community of people who were initially invested in this army. 

I mostly agree with you. I went down from 100% confidence of Tyrion being in this army, to not being confident at all. Mainly because I also think it just would be too massive. One of the few reasons why I still think Tyrion could maaaaaby come is because they made it clear in many articles that he is as central to the Lumineth as Teclis, especially concerning their military (which is what we mostly see in the game). 

That's the only part where I disagree with you, Tyrion has not been shown to be passive. He doesn't have that big of a role in their general culture, but he was as essential for creating the Lumineth and has a leading role in their military. That would fit perfectly with their personalities. Of course Teclis has been much more the focus so far. 

But if Tyrion doesn't come with this army, GW can't complain if some people are unhappy, or went into wishful thinking. If that's the case I think they should have been more careful when and how they mentioned Tyrion. Here are some the examples of what I'm speaking about. This doesn't sound like a passive role for Tyrion: 

Lowdown 1, how they introduced the army:"After working with Malerion to entrap Slaanesh in the Hidden Gloaming, Tyrion and Teclis began to siphon the souls of their former kin who had been swallowed by the Dark Prince during the destruction of the Old World. Of all the spirits drawn forth from the slumbering Chaos God, the most stable and pure became known as the Lumineth. They settled within Hysh, the Realm of Light, a paradisal land of geometric perfection. There, the Lumineth grew both wise and powerful from the teachings of the twin gods."

"With the peerless martial prowess of Tyrion and the enlightened teachings of Teclis driving their every action on the battlefield, the Lumineth Realm-lords are the art of war made manifest."

Lowdown 2, about the Wardens: "Their armour is bedecked with sun and moon icons, symbolising the twin gods of Hysh, for their warriors are neither Tyrionic nor Teclian exclusively"

About the all-important cultural runes: "In addition to representing an amalgam of the runes of the four Hyshian geomantic spirits, the more elaborate versions incorporate the twin aspects of sun and moon, both separate yet intrinsically linked, just as with the godly twins that embody them.

Lowdown 3: About the Dawnriders: "These often include stylised sun and phoenix symbols – though formally centre-aligned between the Hyshian gods, a more militaristic, Tyrionic influence is clearly prevalent. This is further emphasised by the majestic phoenix design on the Dawnriders’ fluttering banner."

Lowdown 4: About Eltharion: In the world-that-was, Eltharion of Yvresse was the perfect blend between supernal warrior and mage. As such, the spirit that endured stands in the divide between the martial Tyrionic and enlightened Teclian halves of Lumineth society. ... Of the two blades he wields, one is dedicated to each of the twin gods. His longer sword displays a fiery rune running the length of its blade, and he has a matching scabbard bearing the rune of the sun spirit. By contrast, his short sword and scabbard bear the mark of Teclis.

I'm a Teclis fan, I really like the Lumineth as they are, they would be all I need to have fun. But I would feel GW mislead expectations if Tyrion doesn't show up. Although of course they could say in a later release like a chamber, but still ... .