Aos 2 - Lumineth Realm-Lords Discussion

[Aelfric]

5 hours ago, Joseph Mackay said:

Allies never benefit from allegiance abilities, so no I don’t think you can pick non Lumineth units with Lightning Reactions 

That's how it worked in 2.0, but I can't find any rule in the new edition that specifically says that allied units cannot benefit from faction Allegiance Abilities.  Usually abilities are keyworded to restrict use, but this one isn't.

If you could point me to the text in the new core rules where it states that allies cannot benefit from allegiance abilities, I'd be grateful because I've looked and can't find it anywhere. Thanks.

[petitionercity]

So with Allegiance rather than allies, can you take models from a non-allied army - like CoS or Sylvaneth or other Order armies for Lumineth?

[LuminethMage]

On 7/16/2021 at 11:13 PM, petitionercity said:

So with Allegiance rather than allies, can you take models from a non-allied army - like CoS or Sylvaneth or other Order armies for Lumineth?

In Matched Play you can’t take any Order armies besides Idoneth (Gotrek) for LRL. 

[mcnuggs]

Hey all! I’m starting up a thematic Lumineth list with 100% conversions from my old high elves- I got a bit carried away and have more models than I could use, and want to know where a good starting point for a list would be to try out. So far I have:

Teclis (740)

Cathallar (145)

10x Wardens (290)

10x Wardens (145)

10x Bladelords (260)

5x Dawnriders (140)

5x Dawnriders (140)

1x Starshard Ballista (125)

1x Starshard Ballista (125)

1965/2000.

Obviously I want to make up those points, so I’m thinking of running more Wardens over Bladelords/Dawnriders. I also want to use two of the Ballistas, but I’m worried that that would kill a one drop list, so I’m thinking about dropping one. How have these units fared for you? Are Wardens the workhorses they appear to be on paper? Is 5 Bladelords enough? 
Also, I am purposefully not including any Sentinels, I plan on using Ballistas for my ranged fix because I prefer the models and don’t want my friends to completely hate me.

Thank you for any advice! 

[LuminethMage]

5 hours ago, mcnuggs said:

Hey all! I’m starting up a thematic Lumineth list with 100% conversions from my old high elves- I got a bit carried away and have more models than I could use, and want to know where a good starting point for a list would be to try out. So far I have:

Teclis (740)

Cathallar (145)

10x Wardens (290)

10x Wardens (145)

10x Bladelords (260)

5x Dawnriders (140)

5x Dawnriders (140)

1x Starshard Ballista (125)

1x Starshard Ballista (125)

1965/2000.

Obviously I want to make up those points, so I’m thinking of running more Wardens over Bladelords/Dawnriders. I also want to use two of the Ballistas, but I’m worried that that would kill a one drop list, so I’m thinking about dropping one. How have these units fared for you? Are Wardens the workhorses they appear to be on paper? Is 5 Bladelords enough? 
Also, I am purposefully not including any Sentinels, I plan on using Ballistas for my ranged fix because I prefer the models and don’t want my friends to completely hate me.

Thank you for any advice! 

That list should perform well I think. Warden are definitely one of our best units. In your list, you could drop 5 Bladelords and add another 10 Warden to one of your existing units. A block of 20 is really good to have - 10 can die pretty easily with just one bad save roll (because you can only get them down to a 3+ save now, even in Syar). Another thing you could do is also drop 5 of the Dawnriders and add a Lord Regent instead (but 2 x 5 Dawnriders are fine too!). 

Concerning the Ballistas - 2 drops might be good enough. That depends a bit on your local meta. Probably there won't be that many pure 1 drop lists out there. But that's just me guessing. 

About the Bladelords - You do not need to run any Bladelords at all in your list in my view - Your Cathallar likely will be in the Shrine and have a 5+ Ward most of the time (so often 4+ & 5+), you could take some Endless Spells instead, Lifeswarm and Spellportal might do more for you in the end. I like the BL models though (which doesn't apply in your case : ) ), and they are good against some opponents, there is a bit of personal preference involved, and again it depends a bit on your meta. If you play against a lot of melee focused armies, you Cathallar is likely fine without a body guard. If it's a lot of shooting and magic damage then the BL might be better.

[mcnuggs]

30 minutes ago, LuminethMage said:

That list should perform well I think. Warden are definitely one of our best units. In your list, you could drop 5 Bladelords and add another 10 Warden to one of your existing units. A block of 20 is really good to have - 10 can die pretty easily with just one bad save roll (because you can only get them down to a 3+ save now, even in Syar). Another thing you could do is also drop 5 of the Dawnriders and add a Lord Regent instead (but 2 x 5 Dawnriders are fine too!). 

Concerning the Ballistas - 2 drops might be good enough. That depends a bit on your local meta. Probably there won't be that many pure 1 drop lists out there. But that's just me guessing. 

About the Bladelords - You do not need to run any Bladelords at all in your list in my view - Your Cathallar likely will be in the Shrine and have a 5+ Ward most of the time (so often 4+ & 5+), you could take some Endless Spells instead, Lifeswarm and Spellportal might do more for you in the end. I like the BL models though (which doesn't apply in your case : ) ), and they are good against some opponents, there is a bit of personal preference involved, and again it depends a bit on your meta. If you play against a lot of melee focused armies, you Cathallar is likely fine without a body guard. If it's a lot of shooting and magic damage then the BL might be better.

Thanks! Lot to think about here. I also don’t think Bladelords are super integral to my game plan, but the Swordmasters that I’ve painted up are some of my favorite models, and I’ve already given 5 of them names, so those will stay for now. I’m leaning towards cutting 5 Bladelords and either one unit of Dawnriders or a Ballista to make both blocks 20 Wardens. I like the idea of having at least one unit of horsies, but they don’t seem like they’ll do as much as Wardens in combat. I also like the idea of two Ballistas for some actual ranged threat so I can force the issue on my enemy, but that does leave me with 15 useless points and a two drop list. Is that overthinking it?

[LuminethMage]

40 minutes ago, mcnuggs said:

Thanks! Lot to think about here. I also don’t think Bladelords are super integral to my game plan, but the Swordmasters that I’ve painted up are some of my favorite models, and I’ve already given 5 of them names, so those will stay for now. I’m leaning towards cutting 5 Bladelords and either one unit of Dawnriders or a Ballista to make both blocks 20 Wardens. I like the idea of having at least one unit of horsies, but they don’t seem like they’ll do as much as Wardens in combat. I also like the idea of two Ballistas for some actual ranged threat so I can force the issue on my enemy, but that does leave me with 15 useless points and a two drop list. Is that overthinking it?

No problem. Also that's just my opinion : ).

Swordmasters/Bladelords - in my view that's a perfect reason to keep 5 in! It's always a bit difficult to talk about BL, because most of us expected a different unit (more like the SW) and Warden are just really good. But I play with BL in my list, and they can work very well. If you get them into the right enemy units - they are blenders (something like Skeletons/Zombies), and if you have a magic-heavy meta, they are also good, especially when you play with Teclis - 2 chances to ignore a spell on a 4+ and on top of that like a 5+ Ward. Means they are almost immune as long as they are within Teclis auras. And they might come in handy as body guards. Sadly Perfect Strike suffers a lot from the higher saves, this ability likely would need rend 3 now to make it function like it was in AoS 2. Or damage 2. It's a bit sad that a unit that wasn't taken very often anyway got worse in AoS 3. 

Dawnriders - I play with one unit of 5 and they are always one of my MVP. Because of their speed, this is so helpful in many situations. But I don't play with Teclis (so no teleport, and Teclis himself is also quite fast himself), so they might not be as important in your list. This could be something to try out and see what works better for you. 

Ballistas - I haven't played with them, and I don't know how important it is that you go down to 1 drop. 15 points could mean that you have a Triumph which is pretty cool. I wouldn't overthink that, a lot of lists don't add up to exactly 2,000. I think 1 Ballista is probably not enough to make a difference, so I'd take two myself if I was in your place. But again, that's also something you can test a bit around as you have the models anyway. 

[mcnuggs]

2 minutes ago, LuminethMage said:

No problem. Also that's just my opinion : ).

Swordmasters/Bladelords - in my view that's a perfect reason to keep 5 in! It's always a bit difficult to talk about BL, because most of us expected a different unit (more like the SW) and Warden are just really good. But I play with BL in my list, and they can work very well. If you get them into the right enemy units - they are blenders (something like Skeletons/Zombies), and if you have a magic-heavy meta, they are also good, especially when you play with Teclis - 2 chances to ignore a spell on a 4+ and on top of that like a 5+ Ward. Means they are almost immune as long as they are within Teclis auras. And they might come in handy as body guards. Sadly Perfect Strike suffers a lot from the higher saves, this ability likely would need rend 3 now to make it function like it was in AoS 2. Or damage 2. It's a bit sad that a unit that wasn't taken very often anyway got worse in AoS 3. 

Dawnriders - I play with one unit of 5 and they are always one of my MVP. Because of their speed, this is so helpful in many situations. But I don't play with Teclis (so no teleport, and Teclis himself is also quite fast himself), so they might not be as important in your list. This could be something to try out and see what works better for you. 

Ballistas - I haven't played with them, and I don't know how important it is that you go down to 1 drop. 15 points could mean that you have a Triumph which is pretty cool. I wouldn't overthink that, a lot of lists don't add up to exactly 2,000. I think 1 Ballista is probably not enough to make a difference, so I'd take two myself if I was in your place. But again, that's also something you can test a bit around as you have the models anyway. 

I think that’s what I’m going to do for a few games at least and see what works for me. This army has been a long but wonderful passion project for me so I’ll be sure to post some pics when I have it all painted up!

[Howdyhedberg]

How could the bladelords with Teclis get two saves against magic? Wouldn't you have to pick either warscroll save or Teclis save (against magic)? 

[LuminethMage]

7 minutes ago, Howdyhedberg said:

How could the bladelords with Teclis get two saves against magic? Wouldn't you have to pick either warscroll save or Teclis save (against magic)? 

It’s not a Ward, and I don’t think this falls under the Triggered Effect role, because that applies only to your own dice rolls as far as I understand it. Like in their example. 

Edited July 23, 2021 by LuminethMage

[JCar09]

Hello, nobody is using Ymetrica? . Avalenor, mountain, alarith guard ..?

[Maogrim]

5 hours ago, JCar09 said:

Hello, nobody is using Ymetrica? . Avalenor, mountain, alarith guard ..?

I'm looking to go Ymetrica, but I have virtually no experience whatsoever.

Most LRL players seem to agree that Ymetrica lost a lot of its effectiveness since you can't run the Alarith Temple Batallion anymore. And they weren't even considered to be that good when you still could. Stoneguard seem resilient, but also slow and Wardens outclass them damage-wise because of the Sun Metal weapons. Spirits of the Mountain however look to pretty good because of the new monster rules (and Heroic Actions in case of Avalenor.

The coup de grace of aelvendom still seems to be armies focussed on Sentinels and Wardens, probably led by the Archmage.

[LuminethMage]

I played a list with Avalenor, Spirit of the Mountain, a Stonemage and 10 Stoneguard last Sunday, in Zaitrec, so all but optimal. And it was a lot of fun. Avalenor died top of T1 because he got focused, but he took Prince Vhordrai with him, so I didn’t feel bad about that. And my Mountain Spirit went on an unstoppable killing spree, taking out 15 Direwolves, and 10 Blood Knights over the game (with assistance, but mostly alone), taking objectives and scoring Battle Tactics. 

Stoneguard still sadly felt lackluster, but in Ymetrica ignoring rend 2 they might be pretty good actually. 3+ against 90% of opponents leaves you with spending your CP somewhere else and guarantees that you can use the +1 attack CA on them. If you want to. So they might be ok for their points. 

If you like Ymetrica, it’s worth a try. Because it was really our worst faction before, people might just speak from theory crafting. It could be pretty good (maybe not the top list, but good enough). 

Before meeting a mountain: 

 

After meeting a mountain: 

 

P.S. Mannfred is a d.ck : ). That is an awesome Warscroll. He’s a pain to play against (without feeling OP), but must be super fun to pilot. They managed to make the model just like in the lore.

Edited July 26, 2021 by LuminethMage

[Maogrim]

How you come you played the list as Zaitrec then if you had such a strong Alarith presence? Neither Stoneguard nor the Spirits have anything to gain from that nation, I think. 

[LuminethMage]

26 minutes ago, Maogrim said:

How you come you played the list as Zaitrec then if you had such a strong Alarith presence? Neither Stoneguard nor the Spirits have anything to gain from that nation, I think. 

Because I like Zaitrec, and didn’t want to specifically make an optimized list. Was just to try out something different for fun. 

The list still profited from Zaitrec though, the full list was like this: 

Cathallar, Stonemage (with arcane tome), 2 x 10 Warden, 2 x 10 Sentinels, Lifeswarm and Cogs (with 2 x 5 Stoneguard and the two big boys). Still a lot of spell casting, and spell denial (which people sometimes might forget). For example, this time my opponent could cast maybe 3 spells during the whole game. Also because most of his casters were dead by the end of battle round one, so not only because of Zaitrec : ). 

If I’d played the same list in Ymetrica the Cathallar, Warden and Sentinels wouldn’t have profited from it. So it’s not that big of a difference. Although I likely would have played less MSU in a Ymetrica list. And likely taken an additional 5 Stoneguard over 10 Warden (I don’t have more Alarith than that currently) to make one unit of 10 SG. 

But for just a normal game, I think you can still play with another faction even if you have quite a big Alarith core. For example this time: almost always having Speed of Hysh, Total Eclipse, Mystic Shield, Lambent Light etc., could easily have made up for the difference of the -1 additional ignore rend, which would only have come up against one or two of his models (one of which died at top of T1). 

I just think - if you really like Ymetrica, you can build a list that plays into those strengths, really lean into pushing people to give you an additional 1” movement etc. and make it work because the underlying units aren’t bad I think. Not that Ymetrica is really the best option now. Sadly besides the ignore rend (which is pretty awesome) everything else is mediocre/bad. You’ll still struggle against lists with many mortals, just like before (except maybe you can keep your Mountains alive longer). But then most LRL lists that don’t include Teclis have problems with that. 

[Maogrim]

8 hours ago, LuminethMage said:

Because I like Zaitrec, and didn’t want to specifically make an optimized list. Was just to try out something different for fun. 

The list still profited from Zaitrec though, the full list was like this: 

Cathallar, Stonemage (with arcane tome), 2 x 10 Warden, 2 x 10 Sentinels, Lifeswarm and Cogs (with 2 x 5 Stoneguard and the two big boys). Still a lot of spell casting, and spell denial (which people sometimes might forget). For example, this time my opponent could cast maybe 3 spells during the whole game. Also because most of his casters were dead by the end of battle round one, so not only because of Zaitrec : ). 

If I’d played the same list in Ymetrica the Cathallar, Warden and Sentinels wouldn’t have profited from it. So it’s not that big of a difference. Although I likely would have played less MSU in a Ymetrica list. And likely taken an additional 5 Stoneguard over 10 Warden (I don’t have more Alarith than that currently) to make one unit of 10 SG. 

But for just a normal game, I think you can still play with another faction even if you have quite a big Alarith core. For example this time: almost always having Speed of Hysh, Total Eclipse, Mystic Shield, Lambent Light etc., could easily have made up for the difference of the -1 additional ignore rend, which would only have come up against one or two of his models (one of which died at top of T1). 

I just think - if you really like Ymetrica, you can build a list that plays into those strengths, really lean into pushing people to give you an additional 1” movement etc. and make it work because the underlying units aren’t bad I think. Not that Ymetrica is really the best option now. Sadly besides the ignore rend (which is pretty awesome) everything else is mediocre/bad. You’ll still struggle against lists with many mortals, just like before (except maybe you can keep your Mountains alive longer). But then most LRL lists that don’t include Teclis have problems with that. 

Ah okay, so you had quite the large game and still enough Vanari & Scinari magic to play with.

Thank you for your insights, as always. I feel like you're such an integral part of this community and I always really appreciate your comments.

Would you generally suggest running Ymetrica in units of ten?

[Wyliekyote]

Welp... big news !!.....

Dragons are back?!?  YAY.   and they are with the ... Stormcast?   whaaaa?  At least the ones they have previewed.  I was really hoping that the LRL would get some of the love as well, but I guess we have too many monsters already?  

Sigh.....  the models do look amazing tho.  Might have to add to the pile of shame and build one.

[Maogrim]

Those dragons are alright. A lot less weird high fantasy than I'm used to for AOS.

And I for one really don't miss dragons in LRL. I like that we have majestic mountain cows and mysterious wind foxes instead.. Dragons are somewhat vanilla to me.

[LuminethMage]

8 hours ago, Maogrim said:

Ah okay, so you had quite the large game and still enough Vanari & Scinari magic to play with.

Thank you for your insights, as always. I feel like you're such an integral part of this community and I always really appreciate your comments.

Would you generally suggest running Ymetrica in units of ten?

Thank you, that's very nice to say. I don't think so, and also I'm not a big tournament player or anything like that. But I still hope sometimes it helps a bit : ) 

SG's Warscroll is not great as you know - because of the 1" reach, 32mil base, and slow movement (although the smaller board and how the battle plans are done helps a bit there). I'd normally not put everyone in 10s, just maybe one unit as a big anvil/block. The rest probably would be 5s. If you go with like 20. If it's 15, I don't know, maybe 3 x 5 is better than 1 x 5 and 1 x 10? Depends a bit on the rest of your army. I think you could make both work , I might be a bit partial to MSU because I play Zaitrec all the time. Probably something you'd have to test. 

I have only played three actual games with Alarith, so I don't have a huge experience with them. I just felt always ok, hitting stuff with your big monsters is fun, and think you can play them pretty successfully if you really like them. Av and the Spirit are great (albeit a bit swingy, like 90% of the monsters), and with the hero healing (Avalenor) and Lifeswarm you can keep them alive better than before. 3+ save in this edition is just rock solid : ). If they don't change that, these two are good, except against super heavy MW output. But again, that hurts most of our lists, and I don't think we have build that's good against everything. 

I think this is the edition/GHB to try out Alarith/Ymetrica if you like them. Just add a bit of speed to your list (like Speed of Hysh or Dawnriders) and you should have something pretty nice and fun.

[mcnuggs]

@LuminethMage Do you have experience with Endless Spells this ed.? I’m thinking about taking two per game, as long as I’m playing Zaitrec. The Lifeswarm seems like an autoinclude for Teclis/Wardens, so I’m looking at a few others. Have you used any of these?

Spellportal: For Teclis to blow up the opponent without doing anything. Seems a bit OP/uninteractive, not so privy to this one. 
Shackles: Area denial seems really strong. Also seems a bit frustrating.

Rune of Petrification: Ah yes, the Rune of Infinite Mortal Wounds. Haven’t bought this but it oooks cool and seems like a good way of dealing ranged damage, which I think I lack without Wardens.

I’m also working on writing up our Spell Lores with names from the old world. Some examples are:

Ethereal Blessing -> Walk Between Worlds

Lambent Light -> Curse of Arrow Attraction

Calming Zephyr -> Apotheosis

etc, etc. If anyone comes up with others, please let me know!

 

 

[HanShot First]

Just a quick question, what where the rumors for the next wave of lumineth? I remember them coming in a box with the Malerion elves but that’s it.

[LuminethMage]

9 hours ago, mcnuggs said:

@LuminethMage Do you have experience with Endless Spells this ed.? I’m thinking about taking two per game, as long as I’m playing Zaitrec. The Lifeswarm seems like an autoinclude for Teclis/Wardens, so I’m looking at a few others. Have you used any of these?

Spellportal: For Teclis to blow up the opponent without doing anything. Seems a bit OP/uninteractive, not so privy to this one. 
Shackles: Area denial seems really strong. Also seems a bit frustrating.

Rune of Petrification: Ah yes, the Rune of Infinite Mortal Wounds. Haven’t bought this but it oooks cool and seems like a good way of dealing ranged damage, which I think I lack without Wardens.

I’m also working on writing up our Spell Lores with names from the old world. Some examples are:

Ethereal Blessing -> Walk Between Worlds

Lambent Light -> Curse of Arrow Attraction

Calming Zephyr -> Apotheosis

etc, etc. If anyone comes up with others, please let me know!

 

 

I think if you play Zaitrec, 2 ES are great. I've tried Cogs and the spell enhancement in Zaitrec (which is pretty hilarious), Lifeswarm which was awesome and the Burning Head, which was just for fun because I had the points (forgot mostly to use it in the end).

In a Teclis list I might only take one because of points, but Spellportal, Lifeswarm, Shackels, rune of Petrification all seem really good there for sure. I haven't used Spellportal in 3, but as it's basically the same as in 2, it's still really good, especially in Teclis lists.  

I don't know if the Portal is OP, SWL is pretty swingy, and there are similar abilities now in several factions. But you could always do something different (like take a Loreseeker, and try something fun with that together with Teclis instead of a Portal).

Shackels - I still haven't tried this for the same reasons. I would only start to include it if I feel like I have no other choice to stay in the game in my local group. Especially because I use several control spells already in my Zaitrec list and also don't want to go over the top with these. 

Rune is very powerful. Especially if you use it with Teclis together. It's also expensive. If you feel that shackles does too much, but want some control in your list that might be a good compromise. I've only used it in AoS 2 though, but it was very good (another quite difficult to cast spell though, so if you don't use Teclis might betting a bit too much on your look : ) ). 

Nice job with the names, I haven't even thought about that. 

@HanShot First I don't think we have any credible rumours yet. The only one I'm aware off is this one  (1d4 Chan):

That's probably the one you meant. And easy to verify - just look if the next 4 books after SCE/Orruks are really Maggotkin, CoS, Ogors and BoC. : ) 

 

Edited July 30, 2021 by LuminethMage

[Maogrim]

3 hours ago, HanShot First said:

Just a quick question, what where the rumors for the next wave of lumineth? I remember them coming in a box with the Malerion elves but that’s it.

I think no one really expects or is discussing another Lumineth wave anytime soon and we don't know anything credible. 

But we can deduce what might be coming from Hysh's beautiful and perfect synergy, aka things that are mentioned in the tome but not repesented in rules or miniatures.

First of all there's Teclis' brother Tyrion, who is more of a warrior and also a god and blind. I think we have no hints on how he might look in AOS. Some people are expecting him to ride a dragon (unlikely?!) or a phoenix of some sort.

Then there are the two Tyrionic nations Aurathrai and Oultrai. They are probably more martially oriented but we don't know anything about them.

Then there are two more Aelementiri temples: River and Zenith. If GW stick to the pattern they will each receive a unit, a mage, a monster and a named leader version of said monster. I personally wouldn't expect both temples in the next wave, and if Tyrion is in it, I'd put my money on Zenith rather than River. 

Although I want it to be the River Temple. People are already trembling before our majestic cow helmets. How on earth will they be able to handle the enigmatic trout (or maybe otter) helmets? 😉

[chosen_of_khaine]

Given the narrative hints we've had that Tyrion is off dealing with Malerion in Ulgu, it's totally believeable that he releases alongside or near the Umbraneth release, and that GHB 2022 is Ulgu-themed. I also expect that Zenith is the last temple to be released, given they are the rarest and most unique. 

Luckily, with this rumor we will have some evidence to its veracity in the next month or two given their battletome predictions.

[Maogrim]

19 minutes ago, chosen_of_khaine said:

Given the narrative hints we've had that Tyrion is off dealing with Malerion in Ulgu, it's totally believeable that he releases alongside or near the Umbraneth release, and that GHB 2022 is Ulgu-themed. I also expect that Zenith is the last temple to be released, given they are the rarest and most unique. 

Luckily, with this rumor we will have some evidence to its veracity in the next month or two given their battletome predictions.

Why that might make sense from a narrative point, Lumineth don't really need any additional support right now. And as Stormcast and Orruk Warclans are not even up for pre-order I think 2022 might be too early. Arguably Beasts of Chaos, Ogor Mawtribes, Maggotkin, Sylvaneth and others would all be due for updates before we would get our third tome (!) in a span of three years.