Jeremierty Posted April 27, 2021 Share Posted April 27, 2021 (edited) Another 3rd ed rumour that may hurt us is the cap to +1 -1 modifiers.. In the case of -1 to hit it is absolutely a good healthy thing for the game, it is really stupid to put -2 or -3 to hit on a big enemy unit and while sometimes it requires a bit of skill to pull it off it is not something me or my regular opponent considers to be fun But we have so many ways to give -1 to hits... I just hope that some of those will be replaced by other tools in the future like -1 to wound or reroll sucessful 6 to hit so that we don't come up with a list where some of our bonuses just don't matter anymore more worrying is the hypothetic +2 save disparition...I found it quite balanced in Syar since it meant using a CP and it's only once per game so it required skill to do it a the right time. Without it I fear that Teclis may not be able to survive alpha strikes anymore or that syar may lose quite a bit in 3rd ed (although look out sir may have different rules in the future that would allow Teclis to be more survivable to alpha strikes we don't know yet !) Otherwise, if those worries of mine are adressed in a future battletome or in the new set of core rules I am really excited by 3rd ed, and the tactical depth that charge reaction may be bringing to our tables !! Edited April 27, 2021 by Jeremierty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Posted April 27, 2021 Share Posted April 27, 2021 18 hours ago, GrimDork said: A list I'm playing with in my head currently is Syar Teclis Cathallar Loreseeker - (Lambent light) 10 x wardens 10 x wardens 20x sentinels 20x sentinels Auralan legion Sanctum of Amyntok Twinstones Aethervoid pendulum 3 drop 1990pts List is a toned down version of the 1 drop sentinel spam list from a while back. Loreseeker replaces need for spell portal to cast Lambent light, possibly deploying mid field to benefit from Teclis +1 to cast bubble. Alternatively, Loreseeker can be deployed aggressively in the backfield to cast the pendulum through opponents backline. I put Teclis in as well for the sheer utility of his casting efficiency and range of spells. If Teclis casts twin stones and then I hop back and forth between a unit and Teclis for casting, draining and charging the stones each time should be at ave +3 to cast. Obviously depending on who the opponent is may dictate the deployment and general tactics, but I think it's not bad for flexibility. I think variants of that list is probably the best potential candiate to go 5-0 at a tournament. It has the possibility to win all matchups, but alas very fragile and delicate. So it's not an easy ride. I would argue still using the Umbral Spellportal for Teclis AoE, or have the option of both Solar Flare + Lambient Light turn 1, as that is good against a lot of the meta armies (Tz and Seraphon). I would also argue Geminids are miles better than Pendulum. Their ability is much stronger and the range allows you to setup the Loreseeker at a safer distance (also within Teclis +1 aura). I would also consider going 30 wardens and 30 sentinels to give you more board presence. I'm not sure which is better though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yondaime Posted April 27, 2021 Share Posted April 27, 2021 1 hour ago, Jeremierty said: Another 3rd ed rumour that may hurt us is the cap to +1 -1 modifiers.. In the case of -1 to hit it is absolutely a good healthy thing for the game, it is really stupid to put -2 or -3 to hit on a big enemy unit and while sometimes it requires a bit of skill to pull it off it is not something me or my regular opponent considers to be fun But we have so many ways to give -1 to hits... I just hope that some of those will be replaced by other tools in the future like -1 to wound or reroll sucessful 6 to hit so that we don't come up with a list where some of our bonuses just don't matter anymore more worrying is the hypothetic +2 save disparition...I found it quite balanced in Syar since it meant using a CP and it's only once per game so it required skill to do it a the right time. Without it I fear that Teclis may not be able to survive alpha strikes anymore or that syar may lose quite a bit in 3rd ed (although look out sir may have different rules in the future that would allow Teclis to be more survivable to alpha strikes we don't know yet !) Otherwise, if those worries of mine are adresses in a future battletome or in the new set of core rules I am really excited by 3rd ed, and the tactical depth that charge reaction may be bringing to our tables !! Damn this happened in 40k, eldar game style was stacking -1 to hit, and they were doing fairly good After 9th dropped they went straight to bottom tier lol 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koradrel of Chrace Posted April 27, 2021 Share Posted April 27, 2021 Well, that's sad. And if that happens, I'm absolutely sure we will hear the internet's shouts if happiness, as well as the gloating saying we deserved it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuminethMage Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 If you don't play in tournaments, most of the time, you'd have just a -1 to hit on your troubles anyway (at least in my games), because many of our -1 to hit are situational. It'll have a negative impact on some things (like if you were planing to use the Loreseeker with all kind of stacked bonuses). It also gives only a max of plus 1 to save which will profit some of our units (and the rest ignores save anyway). I wouldn't get worked up about this just yet, before we see the full picture of changes. From what I heard, there will be a whole lot: How you score, how battalion work etc. Very difficult to judge if how these work out in the end for LRL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yondaime Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 Yeah even the charge reaction are a huge change, it will make sentinels unchargable lol I made a list that gave -3 to hit on sentinels and -2 on stoneguard that saved at 3+ rerolled with quartz ignoring rend Played vs slayers who killed 3 models at best, good times Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yondaime Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 10 hours ago, Koradrel of Chrace said: Well, that's sad. And if that happens, I'm absolutely sure we will hear the internet's shouts if happiness, as well as the gloating saying we deserved it. actually lumineth are not performing THAT well, 42% winrate if i recall well, only really viable list is sentinel spam, and thats prob the hate reason, since its a stupid unit and one of the most annoying to play against in the whole game lol But if you ask me KO and Tzeetch are still king and borderline broken and in more need of a nerf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremierty Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 7 hours ago, LuminethMage said: If you don't play in tournaments, most of the time, you'd have just a -1 to hit on your troubles anyway (at least in my games), because many of our -1 to hit are situational. It'll have a negative impact on some things (like if you were planing to use the Loreseeker with all kind of stacked bonuses). It also gives only a max of plus 1 to save which will profit some of our units (and the rest ignores save anyway). I wouldn't get worked up about this just yet, before we see the full picture of changes. From what I heard, there will be a whole lot: How you score, how battalion work etc. Very difficult to judge if how these work out in the end for LRL. How would a cap to +1 save improve our units ?? In Syar getting Teclis or a unit of wardens to 2+ save for a turn was really good when you were about to get charged by a heavy hitter (provided you already casted the ethereal blessing on something like a war cow for example ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuminethMage Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 59 minutes ago, Jeremierty said: How would a cap to +1 save improve our units ?? In Syar getting Teclis or a unit of wardens to 2+ save for a turn was really good when you were about to get charged by a heavy hitter (provided you already casted the ethereal blessing on something like a war cow for example ) Not everyone plays Syar, and we also have to get through the saves of others. It’s one of 6 factions. We are not the only ones who can stack saves. If you play mostly Sentinels and Warden in Syar, then it likely will end up as an overall negative, if you play more with Alarith and Hurakan it might come out as a positive. In the end Syar might also profit from it, because right now it would have been the likely main target of any nerfs coming our way. Without the double save, Syar might keep the double quartz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adboyslim Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 4 hours ago, Yondaime said: I made a list that gave -3 to hit on sentinels and -2 on stoneguard that saved at 3+ rerolled with quartz ignoring rend I'm curious. Ho to get this malus to hit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yondaime Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 (edited) 8 minutes ago, adboyslim said: I'm curious. Ho to get this malus to hit? -1 hit shining company, -1 avalenor -1 alarith mountain spirit so its -2 on little cows and -3 on sentinels This is the list (or what i remember of it sure its close) if you are interested Allegiance: Lumineth Realm Lords - Great Nation: Ymetrica Leaders Avalenor, the Stoneheart King (360) Alarith Stonemage (130) Alarith Stonemage (130) Battleline 10 x Alarith Stoneguard (200) - Stone Mallets 10 x Alarith Stoneguard (200) - Stone Mallets 5 x Alarith Stoneguard (100) - Stone Mallets Units 20 x Vanari Auralan Sentinels (280) 10 x Vanari Auralan Sentinels (140) Behemoths Alarith Spirit of the Mountain (340) Battalions Alarith Temple (120) Total: 2000 / 2000 Extra Command Points: 1 Sure its not competitive but its a lot of fun to use Edited April 28, 2021 by Yondaime Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yondaime Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 2 hours ago, Jeremierty said: How would a cap to +1 save improve our units ?? In Syar getting Teclis or a unit of wardens to 2+ save for a turn was really good when you were about to get charged by a heavy hitter (provided you already casted the ethereal blessing on something like a war cow for example ) If you use ethereal blessing you wont get the save bonus, since you ignore negative AND positive modifiers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yondaime Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 1 hour ago, LuminethMage said: Not everyone plays Syar, and we also have to get through the saves of others. It’s one of 6 factions. We are not the only ones who can stack saves. If you play mostly Sentinels and Warden in Syar, then it likely will end up as an overall negative, if you play more with Alarith and Hurakan it might come out as a positive. In the end Syar might also profit from it, because right now it would have been the likely main target of any nerfs coming our way. Without the double save, Syar might keep the double quartz. Syar is so overrated imho, ymetrica can be really strong provided you use the alarith batalion and zaitrec can cast like hell 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koradrel of Chrace Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 I'm a Zaitrec fan myself. The 2k army I was proxying before the new book dropped I ran in Zaitrec and had some good results. I like Alumnia more, though. Movement shennanigans are some of my favorite things. Too bad our Windriders are mostly meh. I miss my Ellyrian Reavers.... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremierty Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 (edited) I would love to use Alumnia for extra mobility and run and charge on the generic war cows.. but Syar is so much fun and polyvalent.. need a + 1 to cast or a reroll to cast ? Need a +1 to hit to make sure avalenor maximizes his damage ? need to cast an extra spell because you messed up your combo ? Need to have a +2 save to blunt the charge of a big thing... You can have all that with Syar it allows you to adapt to your adversary and I really feels confortable to play With zaitrec while I love the fluff the + 1 to cast is good but will actually matter only 2 times every 12 casting results (If you roll just under what you needed to pass the spell or just under the unbinding roll of your opponent) I can have this + 1 to cast if I need it with Syar.. Yes Syar doesn't work on a unit with ethereal blessing but what I meant is if you give etheral blessing to a war cow and need also your unit of 20 wardens to tank you can have 2 very tanky units instead of 1 @LuminethMage I never played 1 sentinel in my life but 1 or 2 pack of 20 wardens and a war cow are always in my list for damage and objective control I don't feel like once per game +2 save is that much of a negative play given how skilled you need to be to have the proper timing and how fragile our army can be otherwise Edited April 28, 2021 by Jeremierty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aelfric Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 I'm wondering whether the maximum of +/- 1 is an overall maximum, but can be affected still. For example an enemy unit has +1 to hit; it may be possible to put -2 to hit on that unit, bringing it back to an overall -1 to hit. If that is the case, then there will still be play in having multiple ways to modifying a roll. I also have a feeling that bravery and battleshock are going to be overhauled in 3rd ed, possibly like 40k, so I'm happy sticking with Illiatha with their +2 bravery. Given that this tome was written with 3rd in mind, I'm hoping that bravery will not be affected by modifier restrictions. It's also the only Nation that allows you to choose your own Command Trait and I like that flexibility. The artifact would also be nice on a Loreseeker, if the FAQ goes in our favour. I'm personally quite looking forward to the new edition. It'll be here before I've painted 2000 points of Lumineth that's for sure - I'm only just reaching 1000 now. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adboyslim Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 4 hours ago, Jeremierty said: 20 wardens and a war cow are always in my list for damage Do you play cows without stoneguard/stonemage/alarith? I’m wondering if it worth to include it only for itself without more synergy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremierty Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 (edited) 8 minutes ago, adboyslim said: Do you play cows without stoneguard/stonemage/alarith? I’m wondering if it worth to include it only for itself without more synergy. No I always take a stone mage with my war cow !! ( for keeping the cow at it's highest profile, I also really like the spell crippling vertigo or voice of the mountains to synergize with the cathallar signature spell ) I don't think stoneguards are an interesting choice outside ymetrica, being only a 5 man unit they can't really take objectives well and they are so sloooooow I wish they had a 3 up save or more damage output so they could live up the comparison to the wardens Wardens are just perfect in my opinion they take objectives, with a 3 inch reach they aren't bothered by their 32 mm base size, their base size even becomes an advantage for board control and closing choke points in units of 20. They have twice the damage output of sentinels when they get into combat, given the right buffs they can tank quite well and they are not a truly negative play experience for my opponent so a unit of 20 wardens ready to use their 2 aetherquartz for a 2+ save on 1 side of the board and a warcow with ethereal blessing and mystic shield for a 3+ ethereal save rerolling one on the other side really allows me to have 2 big anvils and some board control (Anvils that can become hammers veeeeery quickly if you speed of hishe the war cow or the wardens + power of hish the wardens ) Edited April 28, 2021 by Jeremierty 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adboyslim Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 Thank you for this very good advise. Even if ethereal+speed+shield look to be like every eggs 🥚 in the same cow 😉 I want to play Avalenor now 2 hours ago, Aelfric said: so I'm happy sticking with Illiatha Can you make this nation exciting to me? Because as this it looks to be the only nation that I don’t want to try. +2bravery is quite useless with Cathallar, Calligrave and native bravery, no? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremierty Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 8 minutes ago, adboyslim said: Thank you for this very good advise. Even if ethereal+speed+shield look to be like every eggs 🥚 in the same cow 😉 I want to play Avalenor now Can you make this nation exciting to me? Because as this it looks to be the only nation that I don’t want to try. +2bravery is quite useless with Cathallar, Calligrave and native bravery, no? Ahah Avalenor is a blast to play, him giving -1 to hit around him on top of other -1 to hit like shining company really is not far from OP Well the only thing able to crack this egg is doing 14 wounds of mortal wounds output... If you add one more egg into the same basket by giving him protection of hish for 5+ FNP there are very few things that can reliably take it down in 1 turn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aelfric Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 57 minutes ago, adboyslim said: Thank you for this very good advise. Even if ethereal+speed+shield look to be like every eggs 🥚 in the same cow 😉 I want to play Avalenor now Can you make this nation exciting to me? Because as this it looks to be the only nation that I don’t want to try. +2bravery is quite useless with Cathallar, Calligrave and native bravery, no? Well, I have to admit that what drew me to Illiatha initially was the (albeit small) lore. It felt like the Nation that was closest to the ideal of balance and harmony following the fall - the reference to Mothers of the Spirit aligning with my love of Wanderers, of which I have a full army and no real place to put them. I've tried, but Wanderers from a city doesn't work for me. I do think, though, that from a playing perspective, they could likely be stronger in 3rd edition, if some of the rumours are true. If Inspiring Prescence disappears and/or 40k battleshock comes in, then that +2 bravery suddenly looks much more useful and units less needful of a hero to chaperone them. Likewise, there is talk of units, with some exceptions, being capped in size so the opportunity to affect 2 units with one Command Ability would be something to plan a strategy around, perhaps 2 units of Sentinels next to a Shrine so no CP spent at all. The CA they gain is just right for Sentinels and there is a distinct possibility that the generic rerolling 1s to hit CA may disappear too. Also, as I said, I like the flexibility it allows when creating your general. Include a Battalion and you could have any variant of General you like: an 8 wound Stonemage with a 4 up against spells; a Cathallar (or Loreseeker?) with 2 spells from the lore and 2 casts, or 2 casts with a reroll; A 2 cast Windmage with a 5+ DPR. Even without a Battalion, the Artifact you have to take isn't bad - an 8 wound Stonemage becoming a 16 wound Stonemage on a 4+ may be enough to make them a less optimal target. Under the current edition, I agree they are not as strong as Syar or Zaitrec, but that could all be about to change and anyway, their Lore drew me to them and helped to fill my Wanderers' void. I'm sure I will try out others from time to time, once playing is possible again, but Illiatha is where my heart is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuminethMage Posted April 29, 2021 Share Posted April 29, 2021 11 hours ago, Yondaime said: Syar is so overrated imho, ymetrica can be really strong provided you use the alarith batalion and zaitrec can cast like hell Syar has been the GN with the highest win rate so far (almost 60% before the new units dropped). Ymetrica was low (mid 30s), and Zaitrec in the 40s. I love Zaitrec and almost play it exclusively, but the double quartz is really good. So much flexibility and helpful in clutch situations. Over a game you might be able to cast more and better with Syar, than with Zaitrec if you use your double Aetherquartz accordingly. In casual games I think all those factions are valid (and I really enjoy playing Zaitrec), but sadly competitively almost only Teclis builds have done well so far, and those profit the most from the -2 to save. This might change though with the new rules. On top of this Syar benefits all units (well except Eltharion...), while Zaitrec and Ymetrica only effect some. Lots of spells are great, but we almost only have 1 cast Wizards, and more spells won't help you much if you have a mixed list where half the army can't cast any spells (another point where I'm salty about the Bladelords). I still play with lists like that though ^^. Ymetrica is great for your Alarith, but everyone else sees no benefits at all. Shiny Syar on the other hand ... . @Jeremierty I wasn't writing about NPE, I find the whole topic very difficult, you asked how we might profit from a cap on minus to save, that's all : ). It's just that Syar has seen by far the best results, and in competitive play has outdone our other Great Nations. Which often leads to nerfs in similar situations. If all the rumors are true there will be huge shake up come AoS 3, so how we'll end up in the end is impossible to say right now. Right now, it's best to just enjoy playing and don't worry too much about what AoS3 will bring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koradrel of Chrace Posted April 29, 2021 Share Posted April 29, 2021 Sadly, my LGS kepps having to close down their open play area, so no gaming for me at the moment. It's made doubly fustrating because the crab joint next door is doing rediculous amounts of business.... On the plus side, I think I've nailed down my color scheme for my first several units, so the painting can finally commence! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yondaime Posted April 29, 2021 Share Posted April 29, 2021 7 hours ago, LuminethMage said: Syar has been the GN with the highest win rate so far (almost 60% before the new units dropped). Ymetrica was low (mid 30s), and Zaitrec in the 40s. I love Zaitrec and almost play it exclusively, but the double quartz is really good. So much flexibility and helpful in clutch situations. Over a game you might be able to cast more and better with Syar, than with Zaitrec if you use your double Aetherquartz accordingly. In casual games I think all those factions are valid (and I really enjoy playing Zaitrec), but sadly competitively almost only Teclis builds have done well so far, and those profit the most from the -2 to save. This might change though with the new rules. On top of this Syar benefits all units (well except Eltharion...), while Zaitrec and Ymetrica only effect some. Lots of spells are great, but we almost only have 1 cast Wizards, and more spells won't help you much if you have a mixed list where half the army can't cast any spells (another point where I'm salty about the Bladelords). I still play with lists like that though ^^. Ymetrica is great for your Alarith, but everyone else sees no benefits at all. Shiny Syar on the other hand ... . @Jeremierty I wasn't writing about NPE, I find the whole topic very difficult, you asked how we might profit from a cap on minus to save, that's all : ). It's just that Syar has seen by far the best results, and in competitive play has outdone our other Great Nations. Which often leads to nerfs in similar situations. If all the rumors are true there will be huge shake up come AoS 3, so how we'll end up in the end is impossible to say right now. Right now, it's best to just enjoy playing and don't worry too much about what AoS3 will bring. Yeah you are right, its a really solid city i should have elaborated better that statement since syar won a lot of tournament at the beginning everybody and theyr mom went full syar i often read a lot of tournamet report because i like to see were all is going, and 80% of the list are the good ol' syar auralan legion, the some zaitrec outsider and the only ymetrica lista that i saw was teclis and the alarith batalion, i never seen somenthing much different (maybe ymetrica+ sentinels, or some more elaborated zaitrec) its not wrong, i am not saying that, and at the end people bring the most performing list that they already know its good, but i have the feeling that there is some fear to try some different nation/list and see how they perform at tournaments (and this its for all armies) Sure thing if people still play the same lists after the new tome it will be very boring 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yondaime Posted April 29, 2021 Share Posted April 29, 2021 (edited) 13 hours ago, adboyslim said: Do you play cows without stoneguard/stonemage/alarith? I’m wondering if it worth to include it only for itself without more synergy. Imho yes, avalenor its one of the strongest models in the tome keep in mind that he has a -1 buble, wich means -2 to hit on your vanari also he hits like an absoulute mad truck Also, you can scream "MOOOOOOOOOOO" when you charge Edited April 29, 2021 by Yondaime 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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