Aos 2 - Lumineth Realm-Lords Discussion

[Ragest]

@LuminethMage you are my boy about lumi talking, so i want to ask.

We actually have 4/8 nations, but if I’m not wrong those are Teclian nations, so if we want another one as subfacion with fancy rules to new units, that means new wind temple would  be related to Tyrion?

[Aelfric]

5 minutes ago, Ragest said:

@LuminethMage you are my boy about lumi talking, so i want to ask.

We actually have 4/8 nations, but if I’m not wrong those are Teclian nations, so if we want another one as subfacion with fancy rules to new units, that means new wind temple would  be related to Tyrion?

I'm hoping the Wind Temple will be related to Illiatha.  I expect Tyrion will eventually get His own Battletome featuring the Tyrionic Great Nations, with four Martial Disciplines to match Teclis' Temples.  The Vanari will be the military core for both Armies.  There may even be some 1 in 4 shenanigans between the two books.

[Icarion]

9 minutes ago, Ragest said:

@LuminethMage you are my boy about lumi talking, so i want to ask.

We actually have 4/8 nations, but if I’m not wrong those are Teclian nations, so if we want another one as subfacion with fancy rules to new units, that means new wind temple would  be related to Tyrion?

Rather than a new nation with a wind temple focus, I think we're getting a rework of Ymetrica.

The new named wind spirit Sevireth, Lord of the Seventh wind is actually briefly mentioned in the battletome as being from Ymetrica. It mentions Aelves following the Seventh wind of the Sarior Plateau which is located in Ymetrica. The new wind temple models and Sevireth are also painted in Ymetrica scheme, and GW doesn't mess around with paint schemes not matching subfactions)

Now currently, Ymetrica does nothing for anyone but Alarith, and if the current trend stays unchanged, that means the 3 of the next 4 Great nations will have to each be locked to focusing on 1 temple, and that just doesn't feel likely.

SO, I think Ymetrica might be instore for a change, either we get an alternate Ymetrica for each aelemental temple to choose from, or Ymetrica might change from giving a specific temple a buff, to broadly buffing all Temple units. Remember that Ymetrica has been set up as the "ultramarines, or the Hammerers of Sigmar" for our faction and it would be pretty weird if our flagship subfaction only benefits 1/5 of the army roster (alarith)

[Tiger]

28 minutes ago, Ragest said:

We actually have 4/8 nations, but if I’m not wrong those are Teclian nations, so if we want another one as subfacion with fancy rules to new units, that means new wind temple would  be related to Tyrion?

Flavour of the nation isn't strictly tied to the  Temples. Ymmetrica is currently more of an exception.

[Aelfric]

12 minutes ago, Tiger said:

Flavour of the nation isn't strictly tied to the  Temples. Ymmetrica is currently more of an exception.

Well, it's only an exception because we only have one Temple.  We'll have to wait and see if the other Temples are more aligned to one particular Nation, like the Alarith, and if so which ones.  It would feel slightly odd if Ymetrica turned out to be the most popular for all the Temples.  

[LuminethMage]

2 hours ago, Ragest said:

@LuminethMage you are my boy about lumi talking, so i want to ask.

We actually have 4/8 nations, but if I’m not wrong those are Teclian nations, so if we want another one as subfacion with fancy rules to new units, that means new wind temple would  be related to Tyrion?

What Athrawes said is likely.

They could change one of the others, Iliatha would be relatively easy to do, and in the first preview vid it looked like the models (cloud mage, Regent) are painted in the Iliatha colours. 

Next to that, there is Xintil, the neutral nation, where the humans live, and we do get some CoS changes, so those could be tied-in. 

Or the Wind Temple does only get general abilities and a Warscroll battalion. 

Lastly they could do a Tyrionic nation. Story wise, Tyrion could send help, and that’s why we see all those new Vanari units and heroes, and the Wind Temple also comes along. But I don’t think that’ll happen. I think they’ll leave all of the Tyrionic side to another release. Like Aelfric wrote.

@SirSalabean In Fantasy, Teclis was for a time the High Loremaster of the White Tower of Hoeth, and the Swordmasters were the military warrior-monk order of that tower. The Blademasters still bear the icons of the tower and in the short story one acted like a diplomat sent by Teclis. The one model we have seen has moon symbols all over it (sword handle etc.). I think they are either a more Teclian aligned Vanari unit, or, less likely, have something to do with the Scinari. 

[Tiger]

19 hours ago, Aelfric said:

  We'll have to wait and see if the other Temples are more aligned to one particular Nation, like the Alarith, and if so which ones.  It would feel slightly odd if Ymetrica turned out to be the most popular for all the Temples.  

It's the other way around, the nation is more closely tied to a particular element.

[Aelfric]

1 hour ago, Tiger said:

It's the other way around, the nation is more closely tied to a particular element.

You're right that Ymetrica is more closely tied than other nations to a particular elemental type, in this case the Mountain, but it is also true that  Alarith Temples are more closely tied to the Nation of Ymetrica because Ymetrica is home to many Mountain Spirits.

If Illiatha has more Wind spirits than other Nations, then the Wind Temples will be more closely aligned to there than elsewhere.

I was thinking in terms of the Temples, not the Spirits, when I phrased my sentence.  

[Tiger]

I don't have enough information on how the Temple - Nation politics are played out, along with other aspects of governance. As it is, I think that there are larger sects dedicated to a particular element, rather than being one unifying one. There are reasons for that, from elemental mages that all developed their own way on how to approach the spirits and the spirits themselves leaving different imprint on them.

With this model it's possible to see a parallel with the Crafworld temples of Khaine, there are multiple temples of the same Aspect of Khaine, yet all slightly different, with their own traditions but unified in their dedication to the art and Craftworld. I wasn't trying to emulate the space elves, but with how my model turned out, the simulation seems stable enough for the moment.

It's possible to create more nations like Ymetrica, however I'm not a fan of on it as a rule of a thumb, as the Temples are only part of the nation culture rather than being the culture.

Edited February 4, 2021 by Tiger

[Aelfric]

2 hours ago, Tiger said:

I don't have enough information on how the Temple - Nation politics are played out, along with other aspects of governance. As it is, I think that there are larger sects dedicated to a particular element, rather than being one unifying one. There are reasons for that, from elemental mages that all developed their own way on how to approach the spirits and the spirits themselves leaving different imprint on them.

With this model it's possible to see a parallel with the Crafworld temples of Khaine, there are multiple temples of the same Aspect of Khaine, yet all slightly different, with their own traditions but unified in their dedication to the art and Craftworld. I wasn't trying to emulate the space elves, but with how my model turned out, the simulation seems stable enough for the moment.

It's possible to create more nations like Ymetrica, however I'm not a fan of on it as a rule of a thumb, as the Temples are only part of the nation culture rather than being the culture.

The Battletome doesn't give any depth or detail on the workings of individual Temples and how they differ from each other.  I haven't read the first Lumineth novel, so not sure if that gives more information.  I will probably have to get a copy.  

I am intrigued, though, about a short passage on page 29 which relates to the first mages chosen by Teclis to form the Temples - "each of his (Teclis) disciples goes forth into Hysh and takes a new master - not Teclis but one of the major features of the Landscape itself".  It seems to imply that each Temple's loyalty is to the particular Spirit to whom it  is pledged, and not to Teclis.  Therefore, logically, one could infer that each Temple would differ from the others in some ways, depending on the personality of the individual spirit.

It's all implicit, though, not explicit.

Edited February 4, 2021 by Aelfric

[LuminethMage]

Sadly the novel also doesn't provide much information about this. Maybe "The End of Enlightenment" provides a bit more information, or the new Soulbound product that introduces the Lumineth to the RPG (Champions of Order), which likely will come out this month. 

So far we really don't know much, not even the slightest hint how Ymetrica is organized politically or how the temples work. The 4 founding mages were hand-picked by Teclis and probably there is some codified work on "Elementalism", because there are Teclis' teachings based on his experience with Celennar, but it looks like the process is a very personal one from both sides, the aelf who wants to found a new temple, and the spirit that is approached. So I think it's probably a combination of something like general, universal, maybe even codified, guidelines, but with big variations between the temples, and sects having their own traditions. But that's all conjecture.

It's also possible that the temples are influenced by the more general culture, eg. temples on the Teclian side being all independent little sects where each follows their own teachings and structures, with maybe a lose hierarchy based on the prestige of the spirit, whereas on the Tyrionic side all the temples are organized within a formal, hierarchical structure. And it could also vary between the 4 elements. The River temples being organized in larger sects with formalized hierarchical structures for example, where the Zenith ones have a loose "one mage, one spirt" approach. 

But how they organize themselves and their teachings internally, can be still different from how they approach external political power and influence. In a split society like the Lumineth one, where a large chunk of the population still follows the "old ways" of the Teclian Ladder, albeit in a reformed way, but where you also have an elitarian cultural avant-garde that stands outside of the normal political power system, but that thinks it knows a better, more healthy way for the whole society, it's very much possible that the later wants to gain political power also over the former. To show them the correct way. And this again could look different on the Tyrionic and Teclian side, and vary between the different elements. Problem is, we likely never really know, if not someone makes an RPG book or hit novel about the Lumineth nations. Within the Battletome framework they'll likely never go into details like that.

On the other hand you can make whatever you want, which is great. In one of the latest Soulbound products, it mentioned mountain spirits gone mad from the destruction caused by the Spriefall and Necroquake (the River story in the BT also mentions something similar), so you could also have a temple sect based on a mage who unknowingly made an oopsy and aligned himself to a spirit gone mad and has some very unhealthy teachings as a result. 

[Austin]

On 2/3/2021 at 8:07 PM, SirSalabean said:

Thank you wise one I honestly wish I knew as much knowledge as you. My only experience of the old world is walking into the Warhammer shop with my dad pointing out dinosaur people, my dad seeing the price and walking out 😂

I think that this second wave of models was made or at least in the works when it was written as it seems all those shadows match up nicely. Would be cool to see it fleshed out even further however I’d also like pre existing factions to get that love more. 
 

despite lore I’m curious as to what the lord regents named character version will be, it’s a similar build with red cloth and a Phoenix emblem on the shield and a tyrionic looking helmet so I’m curious if they’d make that Tyrion or a character from his side. 
 

hopefully we will hear more of him in the broken realms book. 

Dude I saved up sooooo long for a pewter Terradon rider back in the day the struggle was real.

[Feii]

I have heard about some twitter pro player list of 12 spells cast per turn in an order for maximum effect. Anybody knows what I am talking about lol? 

[Tiger]

17 hours ago, Aelfric said:

"each of his (Teclis) disciples goes forth into Hysh and takes a new master - not Teclis but one of the major features of the Landscape itself".  It seems to imply that each Temple's loyalty is to the particular Spirit to whom it  is pledged, and not to Teclis. 

I read "master" as a teacher or mentor, rather than strictly someone that has dominance over you. Teclis occupies a unique position in the mortal - god relationship, he's the creator, teacher and has other titles that you can add to him, it's impossible for Lumineth to deny him. He has bonded with Calennar and their relations isn't such as master-slave, a great symbol and example to others.

[Aelfric]

19 hours ago, Tiger said:

I read "master" as a teacher or mentor, rather than strictly someone that has dominance over you. Teclis occupies a unique position in the mortal - god relationship, he's the creator, teacher and has other titles that you can add to him, it's impossible for Lumineth to deny him. He has bonded with Calennar and their relations isn't such as master-slave, a great symbol and example to others.

Well, I wasn't thinking in terms of slaves to be honest, more along the lines of where people's allegiences lie.  Master can be interpreted in various ways, which means there is no definitive answer to the relationships between Teclis, the Lumineth and the Realm-spirits. The advantage to this is that we have greater freedom within the lore when defining our own paricular forces.

Although Teclis is a God, as far as I'm aware there is no evidence of the Lumineth actually worshipping Him in the way that Sigmmar is worshipped.  It feels more like aknowledgement coupled with deep respect, rather than unmitigated devotion.

We also have no idea about the relationships the spirits have with each other.  What does a mountain spirit, for example, think of the river spirit as the river erodes the mountain?  Is there a heirarchy with Celennar at the top, or are they more egalitarian?  There is so much that is unexplained, which is annoying in part, but also freeing for different interpretations.

Perhaps the novels will provide some answers in the future.

Edited February 6, 2021 by Aelfric

[Tiger]

3 hours ago, Aelfric said:

as far as I'm aware there is no evidence of the Lumineth actually worshipping Him

You have Teclis and Tyrion side. The Twins might not be the most demanding, or rather despotic (as the Grand Toddler Nagash is), to  their followers, however considering faith and wars of faith are a big aspect in AoS setting, I'd think they most certainly do. Not having a healthy pool of worshippers or preachers that go around and make their presence known makes the realm weaker, hence there is a pragmatic reason to have an organized clergy. It would be rather odd to have human priests of Tyrion and Teclis (Gotrek almost having a stroke when he sees one) but no elven ones.

3 hours ago, Aelfric said:

which means there is no definitive answer to the relationships between Teclis, the Lumineth and the Realm-spirits.

There are no definite answers, but there are clues that can be gathered and certain models can be developed and observed. Fall of Spires demolished the realm of Hysh, not only did the elves toppled mountains, dried the rives, they indirectly invited Chaos. If the spirits lacked any sort of memory and awareness it'd be an easy task to simply, well,  subdue and abuse their power.  The first disciples had to show their sincerity and determination to the spirits, they had to show they weren't the power and ego pleasing elves that caused the devastation of the land. That was the start, how this effected or what it means for the mortal - god relationship is something that I find unpredictable in the terms of how it's going to end.

[OkayestDM]

It seems (to me) that Teclis is viewed more as a Buddha or Confucius by the Lumineth, with Tyrion being something between Joan of Arc and Tzun Tzu.

Reveared, respected, perhaps viewed with awe, but treated more like fountains of wisdom and knowledge than as classic gods.

The Realm-Spirits occupy a very interesting place in Lumineth society because they are sometimes deferred to even by Teclis (and presumably Tyrion), but their scope and power seem much more limited, particularly once they consent to take on a battle form. 

I'm curious to see how (or if) they elaborate on these things going forward.

[LuminethMage]

There are two sources I know where we get a bit of information about this topic: 

- in the Direchasm short story about Myari’s Purifiers the Senitnel character is a fervent Teclis disciple, who basically thinks that everything that happens to them is foreseen and influenced by Teclis, whereas the Bladelord character very much and openly doubts that. It seems that the wholly devotion the Sentinel shows is more of an outlier. 

- the Soulbound core book has a short note on the followers of each main god, and for Teclis it says that he is generally revered by mages and scholars of many species, and that 

Quote

The Lumineth people as a whole venerate Teclis and many of their greatest mages count him as one of their greatest teachers, for he still instructs his people whenever he can.

That’s the only places I can think of that we get a little bit of information on the topic. 

I think mages are the priests for Teclis (the Cathallar and Temple Mages would be priests in other societies), but there seem to be temples dedicated to Teclis, which usually become famous libraries and places of learning (that’s also in Soulbound). 

I also thought of him as kind of Buddha or Confucius like god, but within the Greek gods style setting. 

[Kaladreon]

In Blood of the Old World Gotrek also sees a procession of priestesses of Teclis, so they definitely worship them as gods.

[Bosskelot]

Quick question, but can Teclis and Eltharion get Great Nation keywords?

[Tiger]

10 hours ago, LuminethMage said:

I also thought of him as kind of Buddha or Confucius like god, but within the Greek gods style setting. 

I don't think anyone disputes his role as a teacher, I can only comment that he shouldn't be taken as Siddartha or Confucius. His actions definitely mirror an action of a guru (dispeller of darkness, darkness being ignorance), however considering AoS has a rather western setting, myself choose to not compare or mirror a fictional character to real historical figures. The outcome, imo, has too much friction to work smoothly, there are general practices and ideas that you could take and modify for the setting.

[LuminethMage]

3 hours ago, Bosskelot said:

Quick question, but can Teclis and Eltharion get Great Nation keywords?

They don’t get the command traits and artifacts, but otherwise yes, for example if you put Teclis into Syar he does get two Aetherquartz.  

[Jeremierty]

Hey guys, I just played my first game of lumineth against the sons of Behemats and was just wondering what do you think about Teclis ?

I played him with this list :

Teclis 

Avalenor 

Alarith stone mage 

Scinari cathallar 

2X 20 wardens 

5 dawnriders 

Hishian twinstones and umbrall spell portal 

I put my Avalenor ethereal with a mystic shield to have a 3+ reroll 1 save and tank his mega gargant while also returning some blows and Avalenor did just what I needed him to do, he was awesome ❤️

The wardens were used as screens, they did their fair share 

The cathallar with the umbrall spell portal (and thanks to some really good rolls) allowed me to make his gargants fall into depression preventing them to move or charge or shoot which was also very useful.

But for the 660 points of teclis.. I didn't really see it's value as I could have put almost 2 more war cows instead which would have had much more impact ! He was really polyvalent but with the twinstones you don't really need him to cast spells.. and with only 16 wounds in 4+ without any defensive buff (set aside the 5+ FNP) I really think he is too fragile. Offensively he couldn't clean 1 man crusher when I needed him to... And with regards to buffs when I compare him to Katakros he really doesn't bring the same value to the army for 160 points more... No + 1 to hit no +1 save no more CPs, no preventing the other to have CPs except with a spell that another caster can cast with the twinstones, it's kinda disappointing..  I feel he may be overpriced ? what do you think ?

Did I miss something ? 

 

[Feii]

47 minutes ago, Jeremierty said:

Hey guys, I just played my first game of lumineth against the sons of Behemats and was just wondering what do you think about Teclis ?

I played him with this list :

Teclis 

Avalenor 

Alarith stone mage 

Scinari cathallar 

2X 20 wardens 

5 dawnriders 

Hishian twinstones and umbrall spell portal 

I put my Avalenor ethereal with a mystic shield to have a 3+ reroll 1 save and tank his mega gargant while also returning some blows and Avalenor did just what I needed him to do, he was awesome ❤️

The wardens were used as screens, they did their fair share 

The cathallar with the umbrall spell portal (and thanks to some really good rolls) allowed me to make his gargants fall into depression preventing them to move or charge or shoot which was also very useful.

But for the 660 points of teclis.. I didn't really see it's value as I could have put almost 2 more war cows instead which would have had much more impact ! He was really polyvalent but with the twinstones you don't really need him to cast spells.. and with only 16 wounds in 4+ without any defensive buff (set aside the 5+ FNP) I really think he is too fragile. Offensively he couldn't clean 1 man crusher when I needed him to... And with regards to buffs when I compare him to Katakros he really doesn't bring the same value to the army for 160 points more... No + 1 to hit no +1 save no more CPs, no preventing the other to have CPs except with a spell that another caster can cast with the twinstones, it's kinda disappointing..  I feel he may be overpriced ? what do you think ?

Did I miss something ? 

 

You need more bodies for teclis. It is simply just a control turtle build 

 

if you look at top performing TTS builds often time you see a lot of spears supported by archers and allying 1-2 allopexes with rotarius launchers. (His FNP and 4+ spell deny works on them too!) 

 

so you plan on going 5 turns protecting your flanks with spears supported with archers and teclis will keep churning out value. 

[Jeremierty]

8 minutes ago, Feii said:

You need more bodies for teclis. It is simply just a control turtle build 

 

if you look at top performing TTS builds often time you see a lot of spears supported by archers and allying 1-2 allopexes with rotarius launchers. (His FNP and 4+ spell deny works on them too!) 

 

so you plan on going 5 turns protecting your flanks with spears supported with archers and teclis will keep churning out value. 

Thank you for your response !

Teclis didnt die before turn 4 I think, I played conservatively with him to avoid him getting charged but even with the whole army list designed around him.. I don't see his value for 660 points compared to a Katakros for example

He feels nice to play but his only real value is 4 spells that can be cast without him so the opportunity cost of bringing him seems too high as he doesn't control objective well either..

I hope that they reduce the cost of teclis a little or that Tyrion will be able to deliver more buffs and be a decent combatant even if he is blind