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Aos 2 - Lumineth Realm-Lords Discussion


HollowHills

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8 hours ago, LuminethMage said:

I think right now they are planing for a release in March. Because that's when the accompanying novel is scheduled to become available. At the first release of the LRL GW did the same thing with a tie-in novel published at the same time. 

Now the novel at first was scheduled to be released in February, but they recently changed it to March. So that's something to watch. 

Ι am of the same opinion and I hope both of us are correct!

The delay/wait all these months for the release last year really did a number on the excitment for me.. 😅

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Does anyone feel that perhaps the mortal-wound potential In this army is a bit too high? With all this talk of a potential new army book I think one might actually be necessary before people start actually playing games again.

 

A simple combination of spells has units of 20 archers pumping out over ten mortal wounds at 30 inches away. We used to complain about the famed “Dirty Snowball” on the Thundertusk for its 6 mortal wound potential at 18 inches. (Which was eventually merged) This unit is easily doing 12 mortal wounds at 18 inches with no line of sight (and 6 or

7 at 30 inches!). It’s almost comical. Two units of 20 ensure that a game is effectively pointless if lumineth get a single double turn and ALL enemy heroes, mounted or otherwise, will be dead by the start of round 3 with no way to prevent it. Look out Sir and shooting debuffs do nothing to delay their inevitable deaths because the mortals happen on an unmodified 5+. (So even shots that “miss” will still do mortal wounds if you manage tons of penalties to hit as a defense)
 

and it seems they are preparing to add MORE shooting units! Lol  
 

this seems either like a total hot-mess of an army book, OR there are major changes to shooting in Third Edition...  which is it I wonder.

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14 hours ago, LuminethMage said:

I found it ok/good. It does have a bit of lore around the Alarith, mainly though how they think (the protagonist is an aspiring Stoneguard with two Stoneguard sensei), less so about the organization of the temples, although there is a little bit of it in there. What I liked most about the novel is that the author basically takes the pictures of the Wardens from the 4 different GN in the BT, makes a character out of each, and introduces the 4 distinct cultures through those characters. The novel also has a proper villainous villain. There is also a pretty interesting encounter with an Endless Spell, and so on. 

The storyline isn't very surprising, and like many other BL novels, the author does like to show how introspective their main character is, but I found it an easy fun read all in all. 

@LuminethMage is correct. The main thing I found disappointing was the lack of story and character development. It wasn’t a bad read just... lacking I guess.

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As I have only played 3 games so far, and those were at 1k points (due to units I have).... I only have 10 sentinels.  My wound output from the ten was... horrible.  Now, I mostly have myself to blame, since I apparently can't roll AT ALL!!!  As I'm new, and still wrapping my head around all the spells/rules, what is the combo of spells that give the Sentinels such a huge buff? I'm looking to get another set to 10 Sentinels, but want to run them as two 10 units, not as one 20.  One of them, with a unit of Wardens, "should" hold an objective, behind a Prismatic Wall.  While the other is the "sniper"....

Now, off to sacrifice another plastic chicken to the dice gods.....

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1 hour ago, Nullius said:

and it seems they are preparing to add MORE shooting units!

Seems ranged units are the concerned factor. I don't find archers to be problematic, however, I also don't generally min - max my compositions. The mounted archers might be more mild in comparison to the damage output of the foot archers, trading the number of shoots (for the number of bodies) for mobility and something extra. I hope we're not going to see teleporting battle line 'roos with archers backing them as the cost-effective winner of the expansion.

Edited by Tiger
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2 hours ago, Nullius said:

and it seems they are preparing to add MORE shooting units! Lol  

The LRL offsets the mortal wound output by giving the Vanari units fewer attacks overall.

This is made problematic with the Sentinels because they can cast Power of Hysh to maximize their MW output in a 30" radius, and another unit can target an enemy with a spell that lets Sentinels reroll hits.

That particular wombo-combo is pretty egregious.

It should be noted, however, that the Alarith Aelementari units don't have access to Sunmetal Weapons or Power of Hysh.

If the Hyrakan follow suit, they'll likely have an elite weapon profile with ways for the unit to be buffed by their wizard and spirit. My guess would be speed and number of attacks, based on the theme of the units.

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3 hours ago, Sonnenspeer said:

How does that work? They do 3 or 6 Morals without buffs

All you need is for somebody to cast the reroll hits spell (or, marker lights as I call it), followed by hitting a casting roll of six with the option to buff it with allegiance  abilities and aetherquartz. Worse still, the marker lights spell marks the target for ALL of your shooting units and has an 18 inch range. You can give it to you Calvary units, use a bonus to cast, and the annihilate anything from Archaeon to skink priests. Look out sir does nothing. Concealing terrain does nothing. Debuffs to hit do nothing. Your units are removed more or less automatically on a double turn with no interaction.

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Tzeentch and Kharadron are bad on the double Turn too, but at least you can get an armor save and debuff the firing unit, or just out range them. Sentinels are hard to counter if you can’t get to them in one turn. Maybe third edition will make some fundamental changes to the shooting phase and these will only feel like negative play experiences until then.

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3 hours ago, Tiger said:

Seems ranged units are the concerned factor. I don't find archers to be problematic, however, I also don't generally min - max my compositions. The mounted archers might be more mild in comparison to the damage output of the foot archers, trading the number of shoots (for the number of bodies) for mobility and something extra. I hope we're not going to see teleporting battle line 'roos with archers backing them as the cost-effective winner of the expansion.

It’s not so much the relative strength of the unit, so much as it is that there is no way to prevent the damage or interact with it really in any way. Each unit of 20 will average 11-12 MW at 30 inches, or 48 MW on a double turn for total output from both units.  There is no way to stop it from happening if you happen to be in range. Might as well pack the models away unless you have an army that can get into the archers by the bottom Of turn 1. I don’t think this mess will go for long before getting fixed. It’s pretty egregious. 

Edited by Nullius
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26 minutes ago, Nullius said:

Unless there is an obvious weakness I’m missing...Is there?

Technically, unbinding the spell or attacking the Sentinels (1 Wound on a 5+ save). But nothing baked into the ability. 

From a purely mechanical perspective, it's a pretty neat little package. From a positive-play-experience point of view . .  not so much.

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Sentinels are very dependant on casting their own spell in order to do the damage. If that fails or is unbound their damage output is abyssmal really..

The snake archers of Daughters of Khaine have the same damage output and do not need a spell (or two if you also want lambent light) to perform, plus with a command point Morathi can double their damage by making them shoot in the hero phase too..

Sentinels are good but they can be muted easily with good unbinds and are very squishy if the get shot first..

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17 minutes ago, Siegfried VII said:

Sentinels are very dependant on casting their own spell in order to do the damage. If that fails or is unbound their damage output is abyssmal really..

The snake archers of Daughters of Khaine have the same damage output and do not need a spell (or two if you also want lambent light) to perform, plus with a command point Morathi can double their damage by making them shoot in the hero phase too..

Sentinels are good but they can be muted easily with good unbinds and are very squishy if the get shot first..

I’m afraid if the only way to counter the unit is by shooting it, or getting lucky with an unbind, then lots of armies will essentially auto-lose to this build. Realistically the only ways I see to counter it are good shooting (Double Mortek crawler for me), or somehow outflanking and getting a long bomb charge into them before they start firing. 

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19 minutes ago, Nullius said:

I’m afraid if the only way to counter the unit is by shooting it, or getting lucky with an unbind, then lots of armies will essentially auto-lose to this build. Realistically the only ways I see to counter it are good shooting (Double Mortek crawler for me), or somehow outflanking and getting a long bomb charge into them before they start firing. 

Yes Mortek Crawlers might be your only option as an OBR player with a specific build to win against a LRL build with many Sentinels. And many Seninels might be the only way for an LRL player right now to have a chance against your OBR build. 

You just have found a solution by yourself, have 2 Crawlers.  So you have an option to spent 400 points to take out the main threat you see in your opponents army, which costed them at least 490 points (30 Sentinels plus the Spellportal). Doesn’t sound that bad. 

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2 hours ago, Nullius said:

It’s not so much the relative strength of the unit, so much as it is that there is no way to prevent the damage or interact with it really in any way. Each unit of 20 will average 11-12 MW at 30 inches, or 48 MW on a double turn for total output from both units.  There is no way to stop it from happening if you happen to be in range. Might as well pack the models away unless you have an army that can get into the archers by the bottom Of turn 1. I don’t think this mess will go for long before getting fixed. It’s pretty egregious. 

 

1 hour ago, Nullius said:

I’m afraid if the only way to counter the unit is by shooting it, or getting lucky with an unbind, then lots of armies will essentially auto-lose to this build. Realistically the only ways I see to counter it are good shooting (Double Mortek crawler for me), or somehow outflanking and getting a long bomb charge into them before they start firing. 

Shooting blobs having a lot of strength is not new in AoS- can go back and look at the Savage Orcs combo a few years ago and see the same thing.  The double turn, in my opinion, is more at fault here than the strength of any one unit.

Also, this whole theorycrafting in a void is almost pointless, I say almost because you can sometimes identify a way around the issue (as apparently you already have).  Archers are sort of high risk high reward (except my IDK Reavers who are just sort of...there haha).  If you can't get off a charge or stop them shooting, you will hurt. 

I don't find LRL that crazy in terms of power, and their strengths (for now) being in shooting seems story based which is cool.

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55 minutes ago, Austin said:

 

Shooting blobs having a lot of strength is not new in AoS- can go back and look at the Savage Orcs combo a few years ago and see the same thing.  The double turn, in my opinion, is more at fault here than the strength of any one unit.

Also, this whole theorycrafting in a void is almost pointless, I say almost because you can sometimes identify a way around the issue (as apparently you already have).  Archers are sort of high risk high reward (except my IDK Reavers who are just sort of...there haha).  If you can't get off a charge or stop them shooting, you will hurt. 

I don't find LRL that crazy in terms of power, and their strengths (for now) being in shooting seems story based which is cool.

You could be right. I suppose I’ll have to play against it a few times to see how it goes. I think I, myself, can (narrowly) stay in the fight with OBR  by building (and painting!) a list specifically toward that end. I think the whole destruction grand alliance will have a very hard time. 24 mortal wounds starting at 30 inches away with no line of sight is not just another cheesy shooting list. I just worry It has potential to become kind of a gatekeeper list, like Tzeentch was is that ugly chapter a couple years ago. On the other hand it’s a pretty static gun line with screens and it won’t do great at some scenarios. So I guess we’ll see. If definitely seen some horror show bat reps online against this list. Not such a great showcase for AOS.  But with so few games being played you might be right.

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I do agree with @Nullius to a degree. Our main source of damage, for the most part, is mortal wounds. It may not be too bad, our army isn’t super tough either so seems like they’re beatable, especially when you don’t spam the Sentinals. But I do fear that the army could be a little annoying to fight. If I’m just dishing out mortal wounds and the opponent can’t really interact with it other than to take their models away, I can see that being a little lame for the opponent.

I’m not going to min-max my army because shoveling dudes off the table due to huge amounts of ranged mortal wounds seems obnoxious haha, but it still seems kinda annoying.

However! That’s my only complaint with an otherwise really awesome army, so don’t get me wrong. I love these fancy duders, just wish they’d gone about their damage mechanics a little differently.

Edited by Tiberius501
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Someone in the Lumineth FB group made a very good find. The new Blademasters were already shown in the army box: 1067662350_ScreenShot2021-01-26at13_56_50.png.86b0048c3e1247492bfc331b4fe47d7d.png

 

In the same way the helmet on the left could be the alternative build for the regent lord, or (because the wings seem to be above in case of the lord) from a unit we still haven't seen yet. 

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5 hours ago, Nullius said:

You could be right. I suppose I’ll have to play against it a few times to see how it goes. I think I, myself, can (narrowly) stay in the fight with OBR  by building (and painting!) a list specifically toward that end. I think the whole destruction grand alliance will have a very hard time. 24 mortal wounds starting at 30 inches away with no line of sight is not just another cheesy shooting list. I just worry It has potential to become kind of a gatekeeper list, like Tzeentch was is that ugly chapter a couple years ago. On the other hand it’s a pretty static gun line with screens and it won’t do great at some scenarios. So I guess we’ll see. If definitely seen some horror show bat reps online against this list. Not such a great showcase for AOS.  But with so few games being played you might be right.

Here is some data

Esl8zEnXEAE1Jrn.png.487e2fdb7b8b6590a94e7ccb3b28fcfa.png

 

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2 hours ago, LuminethMage said:

Here is some data

Esl8zEnXEAE1Jrn.png.487e2fdb7b8b6590a94e7ccb3b28fcfa.png

 

I see.. so if I read the chart correctly we are on the low end of Mid-Tier at the moment and I feel vindicated when I insisted the army is not as powerful as some players claimed.. Of course this is the beginning of the faction and I expect we go upwards with the new releases + us getting better at using the army, but I feel it is very representative for now..

Are these the AOS shorts stats?

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10 minutes ago, Siegfried VII said:

I see.. so if I read the chart correctly we are on the low end of Mid-Tier at the moment and I feel vindicated when I insisted the army is not as powerful as some players claimed.. Of course this is the beginning of the faction and I expect we go upwards with the new releases + us getting better at using the army, but I feel it is very representative for now..

Are these the AOS shorts stats?

They come from DKHM, the biggest spanish community of AoS

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7 minutes ago, Siegfried VII said:

I see.. so if I read the chart correctly we are on the low end of Mid-Tier at the moment and I feel vindicated when I insisted the army is not as powerful as some players claimed.. Of course this is the beginning of the faction and I expect we go upwards with the new releases + us getting better at using the army, but I feel it is very representative for now..

Are these the AOS shorts stats?

The data is from DKHM:  https://twitter.com/aosdkhm?s=21 . It’s based on the same/similar stats as AOS Shorts. 

Looks like right now Lumineth are about average in larger tournaments, yup. 

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2 minutes ago, Ragest said:

They come from DKHM, the biggest spanish community of AoS

 

1 minute ago, LuminethMage said:

The data is from DKHM:  https://twitter.com/aosdkhm?s=21 . It’s based on the same/similar stats as AOS Shorts. 

Looks like right now Lumineth are about average in larger tournaments, yup. 

Thanks for the clarification guys! 🙂

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I’m pretty sure people overreacted a lot about Lumineth. They saw rules, made assumptions and now they live with that even if they saw that we just had a little of shine when book released (new book, you have to know how to play vs) but in recent tournaments we are just average. 

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