Aos 2 - Lumineth Realm-Lords Discussion

[LuminethMage]

1 hour ago, ian0delond said:

I am not well versed in the lore of the LRL, but isn't the point is everything is symmetric, fractal and a reflection?

One realm, with twin gods ruling over ten symmetric kingdom, each have their four elements balanced, within them moon and sun are represented. Somewhere one side can be more prominent,  but will be balanced elsewhere and it never last long. Things are so intertwined, Moon/Sun and Mountain/River/Wind/Zenith are independents, knowing someone is more lined with a celestial body does not convey information about which aelementiri s.he also follows?

Anyway I think it is placing a lot of expectation on a campaign book not teased to be the conclusion to have a new god having an active part in the narrative.

This is all rather difficult, because we still don’t know that much. But as far as I understand it, there is the basic dichotomy between the Tyrionic (sun) half and the Teclian (moon) half. It seems that within their respective sides it’s always their aspect that is more prominent. And these aspects symbolize certain physical, mental, cultural and spiritual traits (being active or reflective etc.) in the Lumineth. 

Sun/Moon and the 4 elements aren’t connected in some ways, but all 4 of them originate from the moon side, being based on Celennar’s and Teclis teachings, their founding fathers all being chosen by Teclis and all the leaders being mages like Aelfric mentioned.

Then, the 4 elements represent the 4 principal aspects of Hyshian nature (as Celennar/Teclis understand them), from which the Lumineth want to learn from and co-exist with. Again there are certain traits related to each element, and reaching a balance is beneficial. In that respect sun/moon and the elements are intertwined, because the latter probably also affect a majority of the Lumineth, although we don’t know how much these teachings are common within non-Aelimentiri Lumineth. 

How the Sun/Moon character types interact with the Temples isn’t really clear I think. It’s probably a mixture of Teclian types producing more mages, and Tyrionic types providing more warriors within the temples, but it could also be that certain temples reflect one side more than the other (or both). The Alarith seem to be more Teclian for example, originating from Ymetrica, and favoring reaction, deliberation etc. But that could just be by chance (mountain fit with the same concepts) and maybe River will have a more Tyrionic outlook for example (it says they are all about dexterity and quick thinking, the same attributes are also mentioned under the Tyrionic aspect) . Or Ymetrica is the single exception. 

In terms of sun/moon it seems that Aelves who have a perfect balance of both are really rare, for most of them one side prevails during their whole life. 

In terms of Tyrion appearing, and don’t think it’ll happen, especially now that it looks like we get another Temple, but they could tie-in a Battletome where Tyrion appears within Broken Realms just as they have done with Slaanesh. Would be super early, but who knows how weird their release schedule is because of Covid. Really unlikely though in my view. 

[Gecktron]

48 minutes ago, Aelfric said:

I was under the impression from the lore that the four Temples are the result of Teclis' interaction with Celennar resulting in Him teaching some Lumineth the path to bonding with elemental Spirits; so not connected to Tyrion at all.  

Tyrion, rather, has concentrated on more martial prowess, being a warrior first and foremost, and so I expect He has created His own "Temples" that specialise in specific martial styles - rather like Kendo or Kung-fu for example.

The Vanari are the more generalised military units that work alongside either (or, indeed, both).

I don't expect to see Tyrion's forces until all the Aelimentari have been released, and when they do appear will have their own Battletome.

While Tyrion is in fact more martial, both the Vanari (founded by Tyrion) and the temples (founded by Teclis) can be found in all Lumineth nations. The short story describing the River temple for example is set in Oultrai, a Tyronic nation. 

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

8 hours ago, LuminethMage said:

The symbol on the shield looks almost like a cloud creature.

I thought it looked more like a wisp of flame or the tail of a phoenix, but you could be right!

 

1 hour ago, Aelfric said:

I was under the impression from the lore that the four Temples are the result of Teclis' interaction with Celennar resulting in Him teaching some Lumineth the path to bonding with elemental Spirits; so not connected to Tyrion at all.  

Tyrion, rather, has concentrated on more martial prowess, being a warrior first and foremost, and so I expect He has created His own "Temples" that specialise in specific martial styles - rather like Kendo or Kung-fu for example.

The Vanari are the more generalised military units that work alongside either (or, indeed, both).

I don't expect to see Tyrion's forces until all the Aelimentari have been released, and when they do appear will have their own Battletome.

Interesting point about the Aelementiri being purely Teclis associated! I doubt we'll see a purely Tyrionic battletome, but it does raise interesting questions.

[Tiger]

1 hour ago, LuminethMage said:

Again there are certain traits related to each element, and reaching a balance is beneficial. 

In what way are you referring to the balance?

[Aelfric]

1 hour ago, Gecktron said:

While Tyrion is in fact more martial, both the Vanari (founded by Tyrion) and the temples (founded by Teclis) can be found in all Lumineth nations. The short story describing the River temple for example is set in Oultrai, a Tyronic nation. 

I agree that neither Teclis' Temples, nor any established by Tyrion, are restricted to the Nations governed by either of the Twin Gods.  They nevertheless would owe allegience primarily to the God that established their Temple, whilst accepting the deity of both.  It feels to me that, although each God has jurisdiction over specific Nations geographically, there is a more collaborative approach regarding the paths chosen by the Lumineth that reside in each such Nation. 

As the only Realm that has two Gods equally bonded to it (if you don't include Gorkamorka, I suppose),  the society ought to be more complicated than simply belonging to arbitrary geographical constructs.

[Aelfric]

47 minutes ago, RocketPropelledGrenade said:

I thought it looked more like a wisp of flame or the tail of a phoenix, but you could be right!

 

Interesting point about the Aelementiri being purely Teclis associated! I doubt we'll see a purely Tyrionic battletome, but it does raise interesting questions.

And I'm looking forward to finding out the answers!  I'd like to see Tyrion's Temples being different orders of Warrior Monks with less emphasis on magic, rather a mechanism for channelling the enlightenment energy that they have accumulated within themselves through their training - different tables of abilities for each one, with perhaps heroes having more powerful versions.Like the old concept of the Wardancers but given the AOS treatment.

I don't think we'll see a Tyrion Battletome for some years, but I think it will come eventually - probably as a foil to Malerion when the Umbraneth Battletome appears.  I sense an Aelven Civil War approaching, mainly due to being on different sides of a greater conflict.

[Howdyhedberg]

If we do get Tyrion, I hope we get some rules to make them boost each other, if you would carry both in a list. 

I've only played 3 games since the release and are working really slow to paint and build my 2000 points (most is in the closet and not built).

Someone wrote and asked for suggestions on what to do when you feel hobby fatigue. I feel like I'm in that position right now. But I don't feel bad about it either. 

After all, I started in November 2019, finished 2000 pts of CoS around June 2020. I finished the army box for Lumineth in November I think. Not I'm working on 20 sentinels. I finished my 5th today I think.

It feels like a pain and tiresome to make plenty of battleline units, but on a positive point, I feel like I get more value out of the hobby when it takes longer to paint and get done with everything! I'm also trying my best with every new model, and based on everything I've learned and every new pot of paint that I've purchased, makes the time go much slower compared to just using some contrast paints like when I started in 2019.

I also don't want to have a deadline when I should be done, so it will be done when it's done :)! I'm not excited to make 5 more Dawnriders though, and I'm scared about Teclis!

Hope you all get a good start this year! Sorry if something I wrote doesn't make sense, I'm tired after new years :)!

 

[Aelfric]

58 minutes ago, Howdyhedberg said:

If we do get Tyrion, I hope we get some rules to make them boost each other, if you would carry both in a list. 

I've only played 3 games since the release and are working really slow to paint and build my 2000 points (most is in the closet and not built).

Someone wrote and asked for suggestions on what to do when you feel hobby fatigue. I feel like I'm in that position right now. But I don't feel bad about it either. 

After all, I started in November 2019, finished 2000 pts of CoS around June 2020. I finished the army box for Lumineth in November I think. Not I'm working on 20 sentinels. I finished my 5th today I think.

It feels like a pain and tiresome to make plenty of battleline units, but on a positive point, I feel like I get more value out of the hobby when it takes longer to paint and get done with everything! I'm also trying my best with every new model, and based on everything I've learned and every new pot of paint that I've purchased, makes the time go much slower compared to just using some contrast paints like when I started in 2019.

I also don't want to have a deadline when I should be done, so it will be done when it's done :)! I'm not excited to make 5 more Dawnriders though, and I'm scared about Teclis!

Hope you all get a good start this year! Sorry if something I wrote doesn't make sense, I'm tired after new years :)!

 

Sounds like you made pretty good progress over little more than a year!  I too find it tedious painting basic units after the first unit is done, so I always have to do something else before starting again on the same unit type.  It can take a while to get a block of 30 done, but I am painting something inbetween, whether it's the same faction or a different one.  Currently painting  my Cathallar after a detour painting a Loonshrine and 3 more Fellwater Troggoths.  That made a pleasant change from the intricacies of the Lumineth models and allowed me to return to the Lumineth with fresh vigour.  I have 2 boxes of Brutes waiting to add to my Ironjawz the next time I need a diversion.  A change is as good as a rest for me.

I'm not sure I will ever do another 5 Dawnriders!  But that's ok since the Camel Corp are on their way and I can wait for them to get a second cavalry unit.  If I ever do more Dawnriders, I will paint the Rider and Steed seperately.  I still haven't made my mind up about Teclis, but I want 2000 pts done before I get him anyway.

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

1 hour ago, Howdyhedberg said:

If we do get Tyrion, I hope we get some rules to make them boost each other, if you would carry both in a list. 

Given Teclis' cost, Tyrion would need to be the cheapest god-level character in the game to make that work--not much more than Eltharion!

I'd rather see Tyrion be a badass worth of a 500+ point cost than that.  I mean, I suppose you can technically fit a 500+ point Tyrion in alongside Teclis and three battleline, but it doesn't sound like an interesting army to me.

 

[Thiagoma]

1 minute ago, RocketPropelledGrenade said:

Given Teclis' cost, Tyrion would need to be the cheapest god-level character in the game to make that work--not much more than Eltharion!

I'd rather see Tyrion be a badass worth of a 500+ point cost than that.  I mean, I suppose you can technically fit a 500+ point Tyrion in alongside Teclis and three battleline, but it doesn't sound like an interesting army to me.

 

Or maybe something new and Unique, like "if you take both gods, you instead use a diferent warcroll " and pay a smaller cost for the pair. Dunno, Nagash is 800 right?

And on this new warscrolls they got skills to work together in a very epic and diferent way.

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

5 minutes ago, Thiagoma said:

Or maybe something new and Unique, like "if you take both gods, you instead use a diferent warcroll " and pay a smaller cost for the pair. Dunno, Nagash is 800 right?

And on this new warscrolls they got skills to work together in a very epic and diferent way.

Nagash is 800, and Archaon is even more, but players fielding either of them regularly complain about fitting in a workable army around their cost. Now imagine paying 1200+ for both Tyrion and Teclis instead.

The synergy warscroll thing could maybe work, but would need to come with some kind of downside to make it not cost even more.

[Thiagoma]

1 minute ago, RocketPropelledGrenade said:

Nagash is 800, and Archaon is even more, but players fielding either of them regularly complain about fitting in a workable army around their cost. Now imagine paying 1200+ for both Tyrion and Teclis instead.

The synergy warscroll thing could maybe work, but would need to come with some kind of downside to make it not cost even more.

My concept would be like weakers warscrolls but full of sinergy costing about 800 points or so. Maybe not an optimal list but something fun and with flavor.

[Rhetoric]

There’s no way Tyrion is coming in the wave of LRL from the New Years Day Teaser.  The pose of the rider on the mount is pretty similar to the Akhelian King.  I’d expect it’s a hero at the Akhelian King/Chaos Lord on Karkadrak/Liege Kavalos level.  Tyrion is going to be much more over the top, I mean come on haha...

[LuminethMage]

7 hours ago, Tiger said:

In what way are you referring to the balance?

Through Teclis and Tyrion being the only ones who have achieved that, and many trying to do it, but not being able to do so. It seems to be one of the ultimate goals. The elemental mandala is also made in that way, and it also matches with the overall theme of Hysh. It’s a bit  of my interpretation though, basically from pages 22 and 23 in the BT. 

[Tiger]

7 hours ago, LuminethMage said:

It seems to be one of the ultimate goals. The elemental mandala is also made in that way, and it also matches with the overall theme of Hysh. It’s a bit  of my interpretation though, basically from pages 22 and 23 in the BT. 

The following are my thoughts/theory:

The elemental Temples are a creative system aimed to overcome the traits of imbalance that all (GW) elves posses (selfishness, narcissism etc.). If we assume that elements and their spirit exist in a sort of harmonious relations (this doesn't exclude conflict or implies sugary relations), an elven disciple that synchronizes or bonds with the elemental spirit, indirectly taps and becomes entangled into this web. It's through this, the balance of the land and Lumineth is achieved.

I divided the mandala into pyramid shaped difficulty brackets, the lower levels are the most common and easiest of entries, the higher we go, the more difficult it is, perhaps an elf that manages to synchronize with the Zenith spirit can be seen more powerful, however as explained in the previous sentences, in this model no element has inherent power over the other.

There's the Teclian ladder to consider, but I don't have the model to properly integrate it into my theory.  Is in the current time, the ladder even a valid method, was it reformed or simply abandoned with the age of Reinvention? The lore would imply that the Lumineth made the transition to elemental bonding.

[LuminethMage]

Sounds about right! 

The balance I meant was more concerning the individual (and is an unreachable goal for most), but on a societal level, I think that’s how it’s supposed to work.  

The Teclian Ladder is a problem, I agree. It’s not clear if it has been replaced wholly the elemental one (and the elemental one is suspiciously similar, might just be Teclis’ “Black Pyramid”). I must have watched that 20 times, but still forgot - if I’m not mistaken Phil Kelly mentioned in one of the podcasts that the Teclimentari is still there, and people still also follow that (the non-Aelimentiri population, or parts of it). But I might misremember it. 

 

[Sinarai]

So much lore I still need to delve into, aka podcasts. Any good ones?

 

Yall are some Loremasters

[LuminethMage]

10 hours ago, Sinarai said:

So much lore I still need to delve into, aka podcasts. Any good ones?

 

Yall are some Loremasters

Probably you have seen the ones from 2+Tough? They are ok, but the one I think is the most interesting one is the WarCom interview with Phil Kelly here . This gives you a good view on how one of the creators of the Lumienth lore sees them. The previews on Twitch (again with Phil Kelly) were also pretty interesting at that time. But they might be outdated already. 

@Tiger I remembered where heard about the Teclimentari and the Temples (Twitter). So the "normal" population still mostly follows the Teclian ladder. 

[Sinarai]

6 hours ago, LuminethMage said:

Probably you have seen the ones from 2+Tough? They are ok, but the one I think is the most interesting one is the WarCom interview with Phil Kelly here . This gives you a good view on how one of the creators of the Lumienth lore sees them. The previews on Twitch (again with Phil Kelly) were also pretty interesting at that time. But they might be outdated already. 

@Tiger I remembered where heard about the Teclimentari and the Temples (Twitter). So the "normal" population still mostly follows the Teclian ladder. 

Thanks! Yeah, I really like 2+ tough but definitely looking for a more indepth look, he seems to mainly do detailed overviews instead of plunges 

[LuminethMage]

Yes, correct. Not much more there, even the interview I mentioned doesn’t get much deeper, but it helps a bit I think. Probably they don’t want to give out more information until it’s tied to a new product. So maybe we get more in a few months : ) 

Edit: or the novel in February, but that’s always not necessarily canon. 

Edited January 4, 2021 by LuminethMage

[Nullius]

Hey folks, sorry if this is off-topic, but can anyone explain the Alarith “Enduring as Rock,” battle trait to me? It seems like an ability you just leave active for the entire game with no downside, so why would anyone bother declaring it? Or do you simply declare it each hero phase? Was there supposed to be a downside to this ability? Is this a typo? What is the consensus? It seems like there is a critical sentence missing here.

[LuminethMage]

12 minutes ago, Nullius said:

Hey folks, sorry if this is off-topic, but can anyone explain the Alarith “Enduring as Rock,” battle trait to me? It seems like an ability you just leave active for the entire game with no downside, so why would anyone bother declaring it? Or do you simply declare it each hero phase? Was there supposed to be a downside to this ability? Is this a typo? What is the consensus? It seems like there is a critical sentence missing here.

This is very much on-topic : ). 

Currently, there is no downside to being in mountain stance. Common interpretation is that probably initially there was some kind of downside to it that had been scrapped without updating the text. But we don't know. 

You are correct, right now it makes no sense that you have to declare it every time. Just let you opponent know at the start of the game that you are always in the mountain stance and you should be fine. 

[Dreadmund]

As LuminethMage says, there is no downside. I suspect they meant for you to only use one stance at a time, so you would have to choose between Mountain Stance and the Stonemage Stance for example. But there is no rule saying you need to choose one or the other, and it wasn't clarified in the post battletome FAQ. There also just aren't that many stances, so it might be something they had originally intended to be a bigger thing or something that might become more relevant when the new heroes come out.

[Nullius]

19 hours ago, LuminethMage said:

This is very much on-topic : ). 

Currently, there is no downside to being in mountain stance. Common interpretation is that probably initially there was some kind of downside to it that had been scrapped without updating the text. But we don't know. 

You are correct, right now it makes no sense that you have to declare it every time. Just let you opponent know at the start of the game that you are always in the mountain stance and you should be fine. 

 

17 hours ago, Dreadmund said:

As LuminethMage says, there is no downside. I suspect they meant for you to only use one stance at a time, so you would have to choose between Mountain Stance and the Stonemage Stance for example. But there is no rule saying you need to choose one or the other, and it wasn't clarified in the post battletome FAQ. There also just aren't that many stances, so it might be something they had originally intended to be a bigger thing or something that might become more relevant when the new heroes come out.

Ah I see. Since there is some parallel between Elementari and martial arts forms, (or aspect warriors for that matter) we can imagine the final form of the lumineth allegiance will have a set of forms, some general and some specific to certain elements, and each Elementiri unit can be set to an available form at the start of the turn. “This unit is in Illumination form, and this unit is in Zephyr form...” and so on and so forth, with the wizards will be able to help them switch forms mid term and stuff. That seems like a very likely reason for the peculiar wording.  

Edited January 6, 2021 by Nullius

[Beliman]

On 1/6/2021 at 4:10 AM, Nullius said:

 

Ah I see. Since there is some parallel between Elementari and martial arts forms, (or aspect warriors for that matter) we can imagine the final form of the lumineth allegiance will have a set of forms, some general and some specific to certain elements, and each Elementiri unit can be set to an available form at the start of the turn. “This unit is in Illumination form, and this unit is in Zephyr form...” and so on and so forth, with the wizards will be able to help them switch forms mid term and stuff. That seems like a very likely reason for the peculiar wording.  

From a fellow dwarf player, that would be dope. An stance table for Alarith, another one for Zephyr-ith (?), another one for Water-ith(?), etc... chose the form that you want to fight in that round, and move on.

Really feeling the "monk" style and fighting-arts from the Elementari dudes.

Edited January 8, 2021 by Beliman