Aos 2 - Lumineth Realm-Lords Discussion

[ZLee Syn]

1 minute ago, whispersofblood said:

A model's worth isn't soley determine by what it can do, but also by what it cannot, and what it forces on you.

That is true. 
But you never pick a model to do something it is not designed to do right? You play something to do what it is good at. And I think that teclis doest its thing extremly well. (the best in the game actualy)
Yes. If you play against something like KO or flamers you might lose him first turn. 
The problem is that half of the armies dont have that option. 

[Acid_Nine]

3 minutes ago, Gecktron said:

The one big strenght they have is that they can move across the board and charge without losing most of their abilities. 

But I think they need at least one mountain spirit and a stonemage to make use of their full potential. 
(I also think we are still missing something. Right now, there is no reason why one shouldnt take the mountain stance every turn. Maybe there is one more stance on the same page as the tectonic force ability?) 

That is fair, but if you do charge with the shining company all you are losing out on is a -1 to hit and the wall of spears ability. The mortal wound output you can dish out can make up for that if you cast light of hyish  (Trust me, I know that’s a big fat “IF” there, even for a 6+ to cast) plus, you can supercharge them with the aetherquartz to allow them to cast both that and heavenly blessings, and with the right faction you can give them re-roll one’s to hit for some extra nastiness. Plus, defensive buffs don’t matter if you can swing before the enemy, which happens with most factions besides Slaanesh and slaves to darkness when you charge.

Problem with the stoneguard seems to be that they need the stone mage to hang around and buff them, and she is so squishy, and they have the same attack volume as the wardens while having less dudes.

 

[whispersofblood]

10 minutes ago, ZLee Syn said:

That is true. 
But you never pick a model to do something it is not designed to do right? You play something to do what it is good at. And I think that teclis doest its thing extremly well. (the best in the game actualy)
Yes. If you play against something like KO or flamers you might lose him first turn. 
The problem is that half of the armies dont have that option. 

Can lose him to a lot of things, tbh Lifetakers are a good example, screening is quite weak so Eels will also be quite strong capable of pumping a ton of MW into him. I'm generally not fond of expensive models that require micromanagement, like Arkhan or Teclis unless they are dominant and my faction lets me screen out turn one with some certainty. 

You might see him do quite well early on, on the other hand people are going to have 3-4 months to prepare for him so he might also be DoA. At the moment I think Sentinels are probably the most powerful element, and the list needs movement. Which might mean Knights or Morrsarr hard to tell without access to Artefacts and CMD traits. 

[Grimbok]

Yeah, saw those notes what they really like...that bonkers...if those are playtesters....yikes. Four statements that are complete opposite of fun and just a negative design and play experiene imo. This is why competitive people are not always that good to have playtesting things, it just creates this loop of crazy design, that no casual gamer really needs. It’s even worse in 40 K...

 

Grimbok

[umpac]

48 minutes ago, Chumphammer said:

Casting is 1 phase of the game. He is terrible in combat. 10 Khinari life takers can take him out and thats 160pts that drop on him turn 2. 

So yeah, he dominates the magic phase, but you need to be very careful

 

10 life takers are not gonna take him out, not even close. Especially if its turn 2 and he's had a chance to get 5++, double especially if he has quartz left. 

[Tiberius501]

It’s a shame we’re not getting a terrain piece, a bit of a missed opportunity there. But then again, it means less to buy which is always good haha. Just a little odd for an all new army not to get one.

[whispersofblood]

6 minutes ago, umpac said:

10 life takers are not gonna take him out, not even close. Especially if its turn 2 and he's had a chance to get 5++, double especially if he has quartz left. 

Sure if that is the only action you take. Aetherquartz is once per phase so unless they are playing Sayr its either Teclis or something else, and spell casting has an opportunity cost especially with Teclis he has a whole deck to choose from and endless spells. But, I admit he will usually have a 5+ DDR. However, like most monsters you want to at least bracket them, with his 4+ save 10 Heartrenders can easily force you to roll 20+ 5+ DDR on the turn they charge and then bounce MW back on a unmodified save roll of 6. They are actually quite deadly with only witchbrew.  Actually I would say they reliable kill Teclis on the charge. 

[umpac]

1 minute ago, whispersofblood said:

Sure if that is the only action you take. Aetherquartz is once per phase so unless they are playing Sayr its either Teclis or something else, and spell casting has an opportunity cost especially with Teclis he has a whole deck to choose from and endless spells. But, I admit he will usually have a 5+ DDR. However, like most monsters you want to at least bracket them, with his 4+ save 10 Heartrenders can easily force you to roll 20+ 5+ DDR on the turn they charge and then bounce MW back on a unmodified save roll of 6. They are actually quite deadly with only witchbrew.  Actually I would say they reliable kill Teclis on the charge. 

They come down in the movement phase so they cant be buffed.10 Lifetakers does an avarage of 6.67 wounds when dropping down and charging vs 4+ save, 4,44 vs 3+ save and 2,96 vs 3+ 5++ which isn't even enough to bracket him.

[Aelfric]

I find the thought of having to use 2 command points instead of one far less gaulling than having my command points pinched off me at the beginning of my turn or when I try to use them.  These already exist in the game and don't seem to cause much outrage.  You will know in advance of the game that this is a possibility, which means factoring it into your strategy.  But this is what you have to do when facing any army.

Fighting twice in a row is already in several armies due to the Activation wars.  For Idoneth it can be fighting all in a row.

Several armies, Tzeentch, Nagash and Seraphon (esp Kroak), already have essentially automatic casting in practice and spells that cannot be unbound are already available.

Likewise, there have been units in the game that did not need LOS when shooting, though I'm not entirely sure if there are any currently, so this is not a new phenomenon.

In short, there is nothing new under the sun.  These are each a variation on a theme.

 

Edited June 22, 2020 by Aelfric

[Chumphammer]

 

5 minutes ago, umpac said:

10 life takers are not gonna take him out, not even close. Especially if its turn 2 and he's had a chance to get 5++, double especially if he has quartz left. 

They have 2 attacks and 2 damage each on the turn they drop. That can do enough to wound him, for just 160pts. Plus to this the Scourge runner chariots and shadow warriors which will also be shooting at him. What do you do about 6 storm friends? or a KO fleet? or flamers? or Eels? or FEC full flying list?

I tell you its going to be tough vs a good player with a good army. I think LrL can be a good army, but I agree with the play testers, its going to take a good player time to learn the army to become place a top 3 tournament at a decent sized tournament with it. 

My DoK list would no worry about LrL. My army list has the speed to deal with it and units that will just smash through the units. Also I have the FNP to deal with enough of the mortal wounds. Teclis isnt nagash who throws out 8 spells with a 2+ save (in Pentifix) and heals himself and units

 

 

[whispersofblood]

6 minutes ago, umpac said:

They come down in the movement phase so they cant be buffed.10 Lifetakers does an avarage of 6.67 wounds when dropping down and charging vs 4+ save, 4,44 vs 3+ save and 2,96 vs 3+ 5++ which isn't even enough to bracket him.

Lifetakers get +1 dmg when they charge not come down, they have 14" mv +1 run, +1 charge, rr1 on charge and run rolls, fly obviously and flat rr to hit from turn 3. If I was hunting Teclis I would probably use 6's are 2 hits.  So yes they can be buffed. 

Its a bit irrelevant really because I don't think LRL can beat DoK on objective play, but it is what it is. 

[scrubyandwells]

10 hours ago, TeclisGod said:

2000

• Grand Nation - Syar
• 660   Teclis
• 260   Dawnriders 10
• Battalion - Auralan-Legion 120
• 140   Scinari Cathalar
• 240   Wardens 20
• 120   Wardens 10
• 280   Sentinels 20
• 140   Sentinels 10
• Endless Spell - Soulsnare Shackles

What do you guys think? 

Yeah, I think that list, and slight variations thereof, will be a common direction. It seems solid, especially from a drop-count standpoint. 

Another variation, e.g., would be 2x20 Wardens and 2x10 Sentinels, which frees up 60pts for endless spells instead of 40. 

[umpac]

21 minutes ago, Chumphammer said:

 

They have 2 attacks and 2 damage each on the turn they drop. That can do enough to wound him, for just 160pts. Plus to this the Scourge runner chariots and shadow warriors which will also be shooting at him. What do you do about 6 storm friends? or a KO fleet? or flamers? or Eels? or FEC full flying list?
 

As mentioned before, if he has 5+ and quartz left they won't even bracket him. As for the other stuff, I only commented on the statement that "10 lifetakers can kill him", and they can't. I never tried to claim that Teclis is unkillable (nor is he gonna be a free kill, this is quickly becoming a "just kill the heroes" conversation).

 

18 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

Lifetakers get +1 dmg when they charge not come down, they have 14" mv +1 run, +1 charge, rr1 on charge and run rolls, fly obviously and flat rr to hit from turn 3. If I was hunting Teclis I would probably use 6's are 2 hits.  So yes they can be buffed. 

Of course they can be buffed, but the original comment was about dropping 10 lifetakers on his head and trying to take him out when he is in the back line. Even if you charge him normally with CoM hes only taking 4,69 wounds with his defences up (+0.5 wounds or something like that from shields). If its turn 3 he has also generated a ton of value already (and if he hasn't then the RLR player is gonna lose anyway cause he dropped 660 points into something that didnt get a pay off). 

[TeclisGod]

2 hours ago, Chumphammer said:

2x5 and 10 can both work, as 2 x 5 can be better for clearing chaff units. Issue as stated is drops with Teclis. i really think you need to be looking at a 2 or 3 drop list with Teclis to try and lock in that 1st turn choice.

I like 10 also for taking ona bigger unit or monster (though both can with the lighting reflex rules) but 1 bigger unit is better to throw buffs on. 10 can be a great wall if you have the 5+fnp on them and ethereal. Also, do they get the -1 to hit also if they dont run and charge/have 3 models touching?

Yea that is true. Would you agree that most situations with better to go first with this list because of the amount of long range shooting and buffs or do you think its better to go 2nd most of the time?

[ArchaicArc]

Is anybody planning on playing this game outside of a tournament, and without teclis? All the talk here seems devoted to how to use him competitively. For the guys who want to just play a game down at the FLGS without special gods etc, what do ye think of the previewed lists, what will ye be focusing on?

i like the idea of a large quantity of spears, bows and lances, with one or two mages backing them up! I’m sure it won’t be the most competitive thing on the market... but it WILL LOOK COOL.

[Chumphammer]

10 hours ago, ArchaicArc said:

Is anybody planning on playing this game outside of a tournament, and without teclis? All the talk here seems devoted to how to use him competitively. For the guys who want to just play a game down at the FLGS without special gods etc, what do ye think of the previewed lists, what will ye be focusing on?

i like the idea of a large quantity of spears, bows and lances, with one or two mages backing them up! I’m sure it won’t be the most competitive thing on the market... but it WILL LOOK COOL.

Totally,

I think you can have a lot of fun with a shining company style list:

Zaitrec
Eltharion: 220
Scinari Cathallar: 140
30 Wardens: 360
30 Wardens: 360
10 Dawnriders: 260
10 Dawnriders: 260
10 Sentinels: 140
10 Sentinels: 140
Auralan Legion: 120
2000

Some solid units and speed with dawnriders. 4 drops, a lot of bodies

With Zaitrec you still get good magic as each unit can pick 2 spells and can cast/dispel +1 each. 


@Umpac I said "10 Khinari life takers can take him out and thats 160pts that drop on him turn 2"

I did not say kill him in one turn. they can tie him up and do damage over a few rounds of combat. This means you have to pull units back to save him which should be on objectives. I would rather drop the Khanari on the archers tbh as they would be better to clear, then focus on Teclis with other things

Edited June 23, 2020 by Chumphammer

[ArchaicArc]

I like this list!

[Duke of Mousillon]

40 minutes ago, ArchaicArc said:

Is anybody planning on playing this game outside of a tournament, and without teclis? All the talk here seems devoted to how to use him competitively. For the guys who want to just play a game down at the FLGS without special gods etc, what do ye think of the previewed lists, what will ye be focusing on?

i like the idea of a large quantity of spears, bows and lances, with one or two mages backing them up! I’m sure it won’t be the most competitive thing on the market... but it WILL LOOK COOL.

The thing is with just playing for fun with which is nothing wrong. Playing down at your local game store just having some fun is totally awesome. But the thing is you can more or less do whatever you like. If you are just playing for fun just play what you think looks cool or whatever model's rules you like the most you know. I think that is why most people who talk here about lists talk about a more competitive scene when they wanna play just for fun they already know which model or rule they think is the coolest.

[Duke of Mousillon]

3 hours ago, Acid_Nine said:

So talking about teclis aside, does anyone struggle to place where Stoneguard would fit into a list that is not the mountain specific one? for like, 40pts more the wardens can have more attackss, same number of wounds, Bigger board presence and is a wizard that can cast a spell that lets them ignore rend or a spell that lets them get mortal wounds better. just seems to be more utility there to be honest. I think the mountain spirits and stone mages are great, but I think the guard is a bit lacking without them having magic...

yeah i also feel like the stoneguard is not particularly exciting. which for me on a side note is good news since i definetly do not like those cow helmets and elfs with hammers but that is personal taste. So i would have to proxy them but i imagine proxying them into white lions or smth more highelfish would be a pain in me bum.

What i can maybe see them as MSU first rank off wardens to take the charge? you could buy more wardens yeah but if the more wardens take the charge theyll probably take more then just the 10 more dmg. The 5 Stonguard will soak up all the damage from being charged completely. And with the double fighting you could even have the stoneguard and the (second and third rank) wardens of that 2 unit formation fight at once? Idk if that worth it for the investment. Depends on how much we really rely on those wardens in melee. 100 points for a meatshield isnt the biggest thing but aditional drops may be awkward.

[umpac]

28 minutes ago, Chumphammer said:

I did not say kill him in one turn. they can tie him up and do damage over a few rounds of combat. This means you have to pull units back to save him which should be on objectives. I would rather drop the Khanari on the archers tbh as they would be better to clear, then focus on Teclis with other things

He don't really need help clearing 10 khanari, but I get what you're saying. I just see a lot of hyperbole in this thread that is either "omg Teclis is insta-win" or "lol just 1 shot him bruv" and felt the need to speak out and the Khanari comment just caught my eye. 

[Acid_Nine]

3 hours ago, TeclisGod said:

Yea that is true. Would you agree that most situations with better to go first with this list because of the amount of long range shooting and buffs or do you think its better to go 2nd most of the time?

Honestly, we we may be better off going first against armies that rely on rushing and in your face tactics. I don't know about teclis, but I feel with out magic we can set up for their turn and a potential double turn fairly well. I will show what I mean below. 

3 hours ago, ArchaicArc said:

Is anybody planning on playing this game outside of a tournament, and without teclis? All the talk here seems devoted to how to use him competitively. For the guys who want to just play a game down at the FLGS without special gods etc, what do ye think of the previewed lists, what will ye be focusing on?

i like the idea of a large quantity of spears, bows and lances, with one or two mages backing them up! I’m sure it won’t be the most competitive thing on the market... but it WILL LOOK COOL.

I dunno about playing outside of tournaments myself. We have pretty much all tournament players around here (in my area), so lists gotta be tough where I am to survive unless you really talk things over about having fun games. As for lists without teclis, yea we don't need him for every list. There is some fun things we can do that arguably may be stronger, and things that are powerful without it. 

Here is one of my latest lists using Iliatha, but it can easily be changed to a list with the other two non mountain countries.

Spoiler

 

HQ’s
Stone Mage-130- general, Relentless calm
Cathallar-140 -Total Darkness
Avalorn: 360 

Battle Line:

Battalion: 
Wardens x20: 240 - Heavenly Blessing
Wardens x20: 240 -protection of Hysh
Wardens x10: 120 -Heavenly blessings

Sentinels x10: 140- speed of Hysh, 
Sentinels x10: 140-  speed of Hysh, 
Sentinels x10: 140- sparkling lights

Other:
Dawnriders: 130 -Sparkling lights

Battalion: Auralan-Legion- 120
Endless spell:  
Twinstones-30
Rune of Petrifaction-70pts

Total: 2000pts

I could change one of the sentinels in the above list for another squad of Dawn Riders and consolidate the hanging squad of wardens to one of the bigger ones. to satisfy the battalion limitation.

So! Plan I can see for turn 1 in my list if I go first (and everything works according to plan): 

First thing I would do is spend one aetherquartz onto an archer squad so that they can cast twin stones, and set that down in the middle of everyone. Next, I would start casting Power of Hysh on the sentinels until I get to like a +3/+4. one warden squad drains the stones to get an easy cast of Protection of Hysh, needing at least a 4 on 2d6 if it's at a +4. Then, other warden squad casts Heavenly blessings, the dawn riders cast power of Hysh, and the General casts Unrelenting Calm on one warden squad. with another +4, Cathallar casts Total eclipse, which makes my opponent use 2 CP instead of one. 

Everyone moves forward, and assuming I maintain formations and spacing, present the opponent with a staunch line of spears while allowing my sentinels to rain arrows on the opponent and having the mountain spirit provide his -1 to hit bubble over the front lines. I try to shoot the enemy's squishier units as range allows to soften them up while my lines move towards the objectives. 

based purely on this without considering the objectives, I have: 1 squad of 20 wardens with a 4+ ethereal save, -2 to hit (avalorn and shining company) and re-rolling 1's for armor save. I have a second squad of 20 wardens with a 5++ ward save, -2 to hit (shining company, Avalorn if I position right) and re-rolling 1's for armor saves, both having battle shock immunity through Cathallar and Stonemage. I have 3 squads of sentinels with a 30" threat range, and 1 angry cow ready to support the most afflicted side. Granted, this does not help too much against things like plague claws and mortek crawlers, but I believe against most normal armies this is a line of defense that would take some considerable thought to overcome, or at least some maneuvering. If I play my cards right, then this can last even during a double turn.

 

or not. This is all theory hammer after all, and I need to put brain power somewhere.

Edited June 22, 2020 by Acid_Nine
look, this is a big post with lots of moving parts.

[ArchaicArc]

Ahhhhh. I get it, this is a competitive gaming environment! Sorry, it’s my first time using this website, and this is the only group I’m in. I’m a little miffed, I was kinda hoping to see this explode into talk about the lore and people’s army themes/ideas, paint schemes, low-level tactic and fun lists etc. Not trying to play down people who are into the competitive side of warhammer, it’s just not really my jam. Does anybody know of similar discussion boards based around my tastes concerning LRL? I was loving the build up and anticipation on this sub, it’s just kind of morphing into something that’s not to my particular interest (again, not disrespecting !)?

[Gecktron]

Just now, ArchaicArc said:

Ahhhhh. I get it, this is a competitive gaming environment! Sorry, it’s my first time using this website, and this is the only group I’m in. I’m a little miffed, I was kinda hoping to see this explode into talk about the lore and people’s army themes/ideas, paint schemes, low-level tactic and fun lists etc. Not trying to play down people who are into the competitive side of warhammer, it’s just not really my jam. Does anybody know of similar discussion boards based around my tastes concerning LRL? I was loving the build up and anticipation on this sub, it’s just kind of morphing into something that’s not to my particular interest (again, not disrespecting !)?

This is also the place for that. Its just that the only thing we have right now is some parts of the rules. 
Once people get the miniatures and the battletome in their hands the discussion will shift.

Im also very excited for the lore and Im currently testing out a few color schemes via photoshop. I hope we get more lore on the great nations (especially Ymetrica) and some not-creme color schemes in the battletome!

[Acid_Nine]

18 minutes ago, ArchaicArc said:

Ahhhhh. I get it, this is a competitive gaming environment! Sorry, it’s my first time using this website, and this is the only group I’m in. I’m a little miffed, I was kinda hoping to see this explode into talk about the lore and people’s army themes/ideas, paint schemes, low-level tactic and fun lists etc. Not trying to play down people who are into the competitive side of warhammer, it’s just not really my jam. Does anybody know of similar discussion boards based around my tastes concerning LRL? I was loving the build up and anticipation on this sub, it’s just kind of morphing into something that’s not to my particular interest (again, not disrespecting !)?

When I said "Around here" I did mean in my local area, not on the discussion board, and will edit that. Right now though, we don't have a lot of the lore, information about nation's fluff, information on paint schemes or anything like that. All we have is german translated rules and the lumineth articles (and the army box stuff.)

talking about gaming will tend to drift towards the competitive side. it's a two player game with one person that wants to win, and we are discussing things that will help the army win. I just gave a whole paragraph on theoretical tactics on a list I feel would be fun and how I would use it, I dunno if you consider that high brow tactics or not, but I was trying to start a conversation on starting on the first turn. If you want color scheme stuff specifically go make a new discussion topic for the things you want to discuss, and I am sure people will show up and discuss it if they are interested. 

if you wanna look at painting schemes and stuff, I suggest going to r/AgeofSigmar on reddit. They have lots of fun stuff there.

Edited June 22, 2020 by Acid_Nine

[LuminethMage]

6 minutes ago, ArchaicArc said:

Ahhhhh. I get it, this is a competitive gaming environment! Sorry, it’s my first time using this website, and this is the only group I’m in. I’m a little miffed, I was kinda hoping to see this explode into talk about the lore and people’s army themes/ideas, paint schemes, low-level tactic and fun lists etc. Not trying to play down people who are into the competitive side of warhammer, it’s just not really my jam. Does anybody know of similar discussion boards based around my tastes concerning LRL? I was loving the build up and anticipation on this sub, it’s just kind of morphing into something that’s not to my particular interest (again, not disrespecting !)?

Like @Gecktron said, this is 100% the site to talk about lore, army themes etc. if you go back several pages before the rules leak, that was about all we talked about. @Acid_Nine also happily joined that discussion, and is also very active in talking about the hobby side.

It’s just that the rules right now are fresh, exciting and controversial, so everyone will talk about that. Speculation about how things work out are fun. And after months of basically no news, we finally got something real to talk about.

Your idea with a few mages and lots of core troops sounds good and will look great, I’m sure. I guess many people will also make non-Teclis Ymetrica armies, the Battle Cattle look like they are going to be a lot of fun to play. For myself, I love magic, so I’ll try to make a Zaitrec army work (first with Teclis), and also plan to use their color scheme (gold, grey, magenta).