Aos 2 - Lumineth Realm-Lords Discussion

[Duke of Mousillon]

I asked this before but this is important for unit formations in this army so i will ask again. 

On another note. Am i still correct that we have to allocate wounds one after another? That if going by normal rules for example if a unit with 1 wound per model take 5 wounds you allocate 1 wound. Then remove the first model. Then allocate the second wound. Remove the second model. etc. Is that still how the rules work? I remember it like this since there were janky shield mechanics in other factions.

Edited June 20, 2020 by Duke of Mousillon

[swarmofseals]

13 hours ago, scrubyandwells said:

We'll see...generally, though, I wish we would focus first on the health of the overall ecosystem, and assess books from that standpoint. From that POV, I think we want books to fall in the "fat middle" — 40%-60% win rate, ideally 45%-55%, while knowing that win rate stats have inherent limitations.

Many of the examples given (e.g., Kroak, Nagash, Mortek Guard, Hearthguard), are generally components of builds that are either outside, or the upper bound, of what's "healthy" for the overall environment. I think we want those types of components brought within, or further within, the margins.

It just seems more fruitful to assess battletomes through an egalitarian/healthy ecosystem lens, rather than assessing it in relation to its present, over-performing elements, e.g., Kroak/Salamanders/bound endless spells; Horrors/Flamers/Changehost/etc.; Legion of Chaos Ascendant (summoning Horrors every turn on 9+/10+ on 3 dice; Petrifex Elite/Mortek Guard/Nagash; Hearthguard Berzerkers; arguably IDK; arguably Hallowheart; etc.

A recent example of this was the new KO book. When it came out, quite a few were expressing that it was terrible from a competitive POV; but most folks weren't viewing that book through the "fat middle" lens. If you look at it from that end of the stick, we're fortunate. In terms of overall strength, the book is generally where it should be, especially relative to certain elements in Seraphon and Tzeentch — two unhealthy examples of what we could've easily had with KO as well. 

I think you probably know that I agree with you strongly about your core argument! We want everything to fall into the 45-55% range ideally, and I'm pretty confident this tome does that. Overall I think most armies are falling into the 40-60% band already. We don't really have enough evidence because of COVID for things like Seraphon and Legion of Chaos Ascendant, of course.

When I say that I think LRL are in the "B" tier most likely I don't mean to suggest that this is a bad thing. I'm mostly responding to the folks who are very loudly and forcefully arguing that the battletome is clearly broken and overpowered.

Even in the world of 45-55% people will still put things into tiers, with S tier being the very top of the curve, A tier being in the low 50's, B being around 50, C being a bit below 50, and D/F hovering around 45%. At this point I think the analysis gets a little bit too granular to be meaningful, but people will still use the terms.

My complaints about this tome have to do with the scope of the faction and the release schedule, and I acknowledge them as subjective (especially the first). I think the balance is likely quite good, although with a big asterisk to denote that we need significant actual experience to make a real judgment!

[Kelsicle]

@Duke of Mousillon allocate wounds one after another, however once you have allocated a wound to a model with multiple wounds, you have to continue to allocate wounds to that model until it dies or is fully healed.

[Siegfried VII]

20 minutes ago, Duke of Mousillon said:

I asked this before but this is important for unit formations in this army so i will ask again. 

On another note. Am i still correct that we have to allocate wounds one after another? That if going by normal rules for example if a unit with 1 wound per model take 5 wounds you allocate 1 wound. Then remove the first model. Then allocate the second wound. Remove the second model. etc. Is that still how the rules work? I remember it like this since there were janky shield mechanics in other factions.

If I remember correctly you remove them one at a time so we need to be mindful at all times in order to keep the shining formation active..

[Duke of Mousillon]

@Siegfried VIIexactly this was what i am concerned. So removing models in a lets say block formation becomes extremetly awkward after a couple. Say you have a 2 row formation you cant remove a whole rank because when 2 are left in the second rank you need to keep them both there or loose shining formation. When a row is left with 1 man in a normal block formation then it looses shining formation instantly. so we can go down the second rank to 2 models but then need to start taking models from another rank to keep up the shining formation.

 

[Adeeb]

Has the preorder started for USA already?

[Paladin of Khorne]

Is anybody else worried about all the thin and fiddly bits being delicate or snapping off in transport? How are you all planning to work around this for transport and display?

Those spears and ribbons look like a nightmare. I’m going back and forth with myself over this and 40k indomitus and continuing my tau or starting a cities of Sigmar force eventually haha

[Arentius]

Just now, Paladin of Khorne said:

Is anybody else worried about all the thin and fiddly bits being delicate or snapping off in transport? How are you all planning to work around this for transport and display?

Those spears and ribbons look like a nightmare. I’m going back and forth with myself over this and 40k indomitus and continuing my tau or starting a cities of Sigmar force eventually haha

Metal sheet glued to the bottom of a box and magnets on  bases

 

[Aloth_Corfiser]

It is not mine - the picture is just taken from a quick google search.
However that is what I am trying to do - the white Trays and the frame is a "Kvissle" Letter Case which you can buy from IKEA for example, after that  magnets and a fitting bag and voila!

Edited June 20, 2020 by Aloth_Corfiser

[Acid_Nine]

43 minutes ago, Arentius said:

Metal sheet glued to the bottom of a box and magnets on  bases

 

yup, works for skitarii it will work for this. Refrigerator magnet sheets are cheap and you can cut it to any size. Metal is a big more tricky to get down to size, but I managed to get a piece of sheet metal that I cut into shape once, just gotta do it again.

[Clan's Cynic]

3 hours ago, Tiberius501 said:

Unfortunately I was too late to pre-order mine :C 

Have you checked with independent retailers?

[Tizianolol]

Guys do you know when we are able to buy only battletome? I wanna gift it to a friend!

[Icarion]

They said later this year, and considering they have said this release is planned to be similar to how they handled Sister of Battle (early box set, then the rest of the range 3 months later) it could be a few months.

[Falkman]

I am guessing that the rest of the models will be released in August or September.

[Chumphammer]

1 hour ago, Clan's Cynic said:

Have you checked with independent retailers?

Yeah, a lot like Elementgames in uk and ministomp in US have some left. GW canada isnt even open for preorders yet lol

It terms of army strength, I am happy people might see it as a B

I played High elves because I loved the feel of them acting in every turn, and they were not broken or seen as "S tier"

I kinda like playing an army which isnt spammed in the meta. Atm my only army is DOK

[Acid_Nine]

Preorders live, and managed to get my copy! Quite happy with it, and it’s going to be a long wait till I get it shipped

[Paladin of Khorne]

Grabbed one too. The price was a bit more than I expected but I thought Indomitus will be way more so I won’t get that. 
 

Helios elves come here 

[Chumphammer]

My LRL teclis idea:

Zaitrec
Teclis: 660
Scinari Cathallar: 140
20 Wardens: 240
20 Wardens: 240
20 Wardens: 240
10 Sentinels: 140
10 Sentinels: 140
Soulscream Bridge: 80
Auralan Legion: 120
2000pts
101 Wounds, 2 Drops, 82 bodies

Why Zaitrec? Means each of my units can have 2 spells, as well as knowing their scroll spell and the Zaitrec spell, plus they also have +1 for 1st spells/dispel/unbind

this gives me some insane magic options and output, as some games/turns I do not need to cast weapon buff on all of them.

Plan is turn 1 Teclis drops the bridge, command point spell, defense buff and if in range, damage spell (or something else) while the units either buff off or throw some other spells out.

2 units of wardens then jump through the bridge and take up a defense position (since being deployed they are now 12" up and have the shining company in place

1 unit of wardens stay back and move with Teclis as his shield 

From there its hold the line while teclis and sentinals deal with the main threats 

I also like the idea of dropping 10 spears and 10 archers, and taking Eltharion and emerald life swarm. Means I can heal teclis/elt or get models back, and eltharions shooting/combat/command ability maybe vital


This is my non teclis idea:

Syar
Spirit of Eltharian: 220
Scinari Cathallar: 140
30 Wardens: 360
20 Wardens: 240
10 Sentinels: 140
10 Sentinels: 140
Spirit of the Mountain: 360
10 DawnRiders: 260
Auralan Legion: 120
4 Drops


 

Edited June 20, 2020 by Chumphammer

[Siegfried VII]

5 hours ago, Duke of Mousillon said:

@Siegfried VIIexactly this was what i am concerned. So removing models in a lets say block formation becomes extremetly awkward after a couple. Say you have a 2 row formation you cant remove a whole rank because when 2 are left in the second rank you need to keep them both there or loose shining formation. When a row is left with 1 man in a normal block formation then it looses shining formation instantly. so we can go down the second rank to 2 models but then need to start taking models from another rank to keep up the shining formation.

 

Here are some pics were I use Dryads and Dragonblades to create ways to field the units so that you can retain the shining company no matter the losses..

[Jaskier]

Thanks for the clarifications y'all. It's incredible to think that our three basic units are all capable of casting lore (and potentially endless) spells! It's really good for Teclis lists as they don't need many extra heroes to get all the synergies going (I can see Teclis + Cathaller being a staple) unlike most other factions who are more hero-dependent. The unit leaders being the wizards and that glittering host rule (bunch up for -1 to be hit) means abilities that can slay specific models will be absolutely invaluable against Lumineth, especially with no means to resurrect models outside of the Lifeswarm. 

 

Also interesting to see the note on weapon options for unit leaders, I was aware of the Wardens' weapon change and had factored that in, but didn't see the bit about the Sentinels. Doesn't change the numbers too much but it's definitely something players should be cognizant of so as to not accidentally fire too many shots. 

 

Eltharion really is a steal at 220 points, even though he's not a wizard. Doing D3 mortal wounds on a 2+/D6 mortal wounds on a 5+ at an effective 22" range (more if he runs, as it's not a missile weapon) each turn, on top of his already great offensive and defensive stats, is just crazy. Combine that with Teclis' 18" area-of-effect damage spell (thinking a Spellportal would be super good with this) and our Sentinels' long-range mortal wound capabilities, and this is an army purpose designed to annihilate characters/war machines/etc from afar while grinding down foes in melee behind tough infantry. Teclis even has a great little shooting attack that's just a more reliable version of Alarielle's with better Rend to boot. 

Edited June 20, 2020 by Jaskier

[JackStreicher]

On 6/19/2020 at 10:15 AM, Sonnenspeer said:

I'm only jealous that Eltharion is stronger then my Storm Eidolon.

And cheaper

[JackStreicher]

The box is up for preorder btw

[Duke of Mousillon]

37 minutes ago, Siegfried VII said:

Here are some pics were I use Dryads and Dragonblades to create ways to field the units so that you can retain the shining company no matter the losses..

I actually did the same thing after we two agreed on the thing with removing models on a one by one basis ^^ but thought it would be weird posting it here 

[Jaskier]

I'm really looking at running a Teclis-Zaitrec list now. Getting +2 (Zaitrec and Celennar's aura) to everyone's first cast/unbind/dispel each hero phase then +1 for each subsequent attempt (Celennar's aura) is bonkers good, and each of the units knowing at least four spells (warscroll spell, two lore spells, Zaitrec spell) gives you nigh unparalleled flexibility of who to cast from (and means you won't lose access to spells as quickly as other armies do when your wizards die, as you'll be doubling up on each spell across multiple different units.) Teclis' auto-casting spells, unlimited unbinds, one auto-unbind, one auto-dispel and the 4+ ignore spell effects and bounce mortal wounds back aura on top of the Zaitrec shenanigans make for what surely has to be a nigh unparalleled magical dominance list if you can keep him alive. 

Edited June 20, 2020 by Jaskier

[Acid_Nine]

Honestly I have a few ideas that seem like they could be pretty good. Using dawn riders as Endless spells delivery devices for turn 2 seems like a good way to send things forward, or using them directly from the Wardens a turn when you expect to recieve a big charge. I feel like the "cast extra spell" is going to be the aetherquartz ability I use the most too. For example, before combat I could theoretically use that aetherquarts reserve and cast empowerment of hysh and the protection of Hysh on themselves, charge into a unit alongside some dawnriders or the mountain spirit. 

 

Also, just spitballing here for some ideas I had. The mountain spirit's debuff of -1 to hit on anyone is particularly good, seeing as it's free and can (probably) stack with the Shining company's -1 to hit to give a whopping -2 to hit on units. He cannot buff himself with an extra attack, but his damage is potentially insane, and combined with a +1 to hit on his quartz he can potentially kill 10 chaos warriors in one turn if all goes well. 

 

The dawn riders also seem like they could act as marker lights, casting sparkling lights on targets for the archers to hit when it's time to block out the sun. 

Wardens casting self buffing spells look to be pretty good, but I would keep that to either the protection spell or the extra speed spell, just because it seems like it could be useful.

 

Lots of utility, but the main things I think will be correct spell choices.