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Aos 2 - Lumineth Realm-Lords Discussion


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33 minutes ago, Gecktron said:

I dont think Stoneguard benefits from Power of Hysh since they dont have any "Sonnenmetalwaffen"/Sun metal weapons. 
Also, what weapon did you use for them? There is one weapon option that causes 1 MW on 6 to-hit, the other doubles the damage.

Sorry my bad. The buffed versions of the stats for Stoneguard are with the command ability of Avelanor/Spirit of the Mountain that gives them +1 attack. I wanted to take in consideratrion the synergies too. 🙂

I will edit my post to include this info!

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31 minutes ago, Siegfried VII said:

Sorry my bad. The buffed versions of the stats for Stoneguard are with the command ability of Avelanor/Spirit of the Mountain that gives them +1 attack. I wanted to take in consideratrion the synergies too. 🙂

I will edit my post to include this info!

Could you add the regular mountain to this too? maybe with the +2 attacks from standing still and buffing himself? I think he'd do well compared to Avelanor with his easier wounding value and the extra rend.

 

Also, I'm having a hard time deciding on which list I really wanna play. I like the idea of a formation just for added command and relics and drops given, but I feel like I'm missing out on the best endless spell, Rune of Petrification. I could drop one squad of dawn riders, but then I have less mobility and less spells, or I could remove the stone guard I have there, but I feel that they would be useful to hit the enemy with damage and to force people off objectives...

 

So two more lists, one with Dawn riders and one with the added punch of endless spells. 

 

Spoiler

Iliatha 

Stone Mage-130- general
Cathallar-140
Mountain Spirit: 340

Battle Line:

Wardens x20: 240
Wardens x20: 240
Sentinels x10: 140
Sentinels x10: 140

Dawnriders: 130pts


Stoneguard x10: 200pts


Battalion: Auralan-Legion- 120
Endless spell: 
Twinstones-30
Petrification rune: 70
Geminids: 60pts


Total: 1980pts
 

Or

 

List 3 Iliatha with batallion: 

Stone Mage-130- general
Cathallar-140
Mountain Spirit: 340

Battle Line:

Wardens x20: 240
Wardens x20: 240
Sentinels x10: 140
Sentinels x10: 140

Dawnriders: 130pts
Dawnriders: 130pts


Stoneguard x10: 200pts


Battalion: Auralan-Legion- 120
Endless spell: 
Twinstones-30

Total: 1980pts
 

 

 

 

 

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Is the endless spell and teclis combo viable?

Teclis got an aura which is 4+ to ignore endless spells and do D3 mortal to a enemy unit within 18''.

So I summon a endless spell, says the prismatic palisade which has a ability trigger at the start of each turn. When it is activated,  it might affect about 4 or 5 of my units and I get to roll 4 or 5 dices to ignore the effect and each successful roll is a D3 mortal.  You can do this with multiple endless spells each turn. How's that sounds?

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12 hours ago, hiaze said:

however normaly u should have magic advantage ( not a lot of armies can have more sorcerer than lumineth armies) to take control batlle advantange

move of armies are average not bad at all but no great, but look how much move spell you have:

have minimal of drop and try to play 1st to cancel move to enemies with lot of wizzard seems the key to take control of game, and try to have resilience to keep the game in your hand with lot of support spell.

I don't think this will play out the way you think it will. Lumineth have a lot of wizards, but outside of Teclis they are mostly unremarkable in their cast ability and are mostly just self-buffing. Any enemy army with significant unbinding power will be able to stop non-Teclis casters a lot of the time. Also, the enemy will not be within 18" range to mess with their movement on the first turn. If you go first and they double turn you they could easily get to your lines before you have a chance to cast any of the movement restricting spells.

4 hours ago, Lucur said:

Is it just me or are sentinels pretty bonkers? A 20 man unit does an average 7 MW with their spell on, 8 with RR1s from the battalion, 11 if they get full rerolls to hit (and reroll anything not a MW). Plus the negligible bit of actual hits. At 30" without LoS. I can't see myself leave home without 20. Or 40.

Yeah, I think that sentinels are definitely a sleeper unit so far with everyone talking about Teclis and stoneguard. They are going to be really good at assassinating heroes. The problem is that while their mortal wound output is respectable they will struggle against targets that aren't relying on armor for their defense. They just don't put out enough damage to bother large blocks of troops, especially those with cheap wounds or ward saves like Phoenix Guard, Savage Orruks of all types, Witch Aelves, Hearthguard Berzerkers, Horrors etc. So I think taking some sentinels will be fantastic as hero snipers but I don't think they will work en masse (at least in a scenario where you don't know your opponent ahead of time).

 

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I think it's too early to tell and I'll readily admit that I may be missing something (it's harder to process all the information when it's spread out and reliant on translation), but my first impressions of this army are not good.

From a purely competitive standpoint, I'm not sure what Lumineth do that other armies can't already do better. Teclis is an amazing caster but I don't really see him being as good as other top level magic options like Nagash, Lord Kroak, or Hallowheart. Are stoneguard and wardens really any better than Mortek Guard or Hearthguard? My initial impression is no.

The army is incredibly slow. Dawnriders are the only fast option, and they are really bad against anything other than infantry (which they are admittedly quite good against). Teclis is the only thing that flies, but you pretty much have to play him defensively.

How is Lumineth supposed to win against any army that has decent defense and can get to the objectives first?

I'd be full on shocked if Lumineth are S tier and really surprised if they are A tier. My best bet is that they are a middling B, but I wouldn't be surprised if they are C tier. Again, I could very well be mistaken if I'm interpreting the rules incorrectly -- but this is my first impression.

As far as my impressions of the faction beyond just competitive concerns, I'm also not a fan. The model range is very limited but is somehow also quite redundant. While wardens and stoneguard are different in some ways, they effectively fill the same role on the battlefield. The named giant and the regular giant are also really similar. It seems to me that most Lumineth builds are likely to play about the same, which is a serious turn-off for me personally. I'll readily admit that I much prefer the broader tomes like Legions of Nagash, Beasts of Chaos, Seraphon, Cities of Sigmar etc. that offer a bunch of ways to play that are substantially different from one another.

I also really like the design of most of the units in a vacuum. I love that the sentinels and the dawnriders are designed in a way that gives them pretty strong roles on the battlefield. I appreciate that the different mage heroes do somewhat different things. I really like the design space that the book is carving out in terms of unit formations and stances.

If the faction overall were twice as big with some options that really change the way the army plays (like the Coalesced vs. Starborne options in Seraphon) then I'd probably really like this book. But as it is it feels very narrow.

I also really hate the "release the box set now and then the rest of the faction at some point in the future" model.

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10 minutes ago, Acid_Nine said:

Could you add the regular mountain to this too? maybe with the +2 attacks from standing still and buffing himself? I think he'd do well compared to Avelanor with his easier wounding value and the extra rend.

  Hide contents

 

 

 

 

I have done the stats for the Spirit Mountain too but I deleted them because they so more or less the same damage, Avelanor is a bit better if they have charged and much better against lower saves units (6+) and the Spirit Mountain is a bit better if they haven't charged (due to the better quality of his hammer) and a bit better against higher save units (3+, 2+). But overall I would rank them the same as damage potential goes..

As for your list I prefer the second one. Better a few more bodies than a spell wich may or may not be cast sucessfully imo..

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54 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

As far as my impressions of the faction beyond just competitive concerns, I'm also not a fan. The model range is very limited but is somehow also quite redundant. While wardens and stoneguard are different in some ways, they effectively fill the same role on the battlefield.

This seems like a pretty tough statement to back up with any real facts. 

The biggest similarity I can see is that they are both have limited mobility when in defensive posture (Wardens in shining company), but they're going to be fielded in significantly different units sizes, the Wardens with their sunmetal weapons can deal out significantly more damage and have some unique anti charge abilities, and of course their highly noteworthy 3 inch reach. 

I think the word you're actually looking for is complimentary. What you see as similarity is actually thematic army cohesion. Both units can play off each other well to supplement each other's battlefield roles (for example by screening the wardens with the Stoneguard). 

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@swarmofseals

You bring up some pretty good points. I don't know if the Lumineth have answers to things like the Mortek Crawlers or plague claw catapults besides trying to kill them with sentinels. We need a lot of spells, but don't have too many bonus's like Hallowheart does, nor do we have cheaper wizards like I think we need. Our big god model is squishy, but if we get him to work then look out. 

 

I do feel like we needed more models and more rules that would be good, but I do not know if it is all doom and gloom. Maybe we need some point adjustments (or maybe other factions need point adjustments), and we can certainly use some more units and more models to bring us up to a higher level, but I still think these guys have their place. The mortal wound potential can be insane if you have good dice, for example, and maybe the magic is a bit more tame compared to hallowheart or tzeentch (you know, the two masters of magic factions. ) but I believe they could do well. we don't even have the full book, just translations, so We'll see. I remain hopefully optimistic for it.

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1 hour ago, swarmofseals said:

I don't think this will play out the way you think it will. Lumineth have a lot of wizards, but outside of Teclis they are mostly unremarkable in their cast ability and are mostly just self-buffing. Any enemy army with significant unbinding power will be able to stop non-Teclis casters a lot of the time.

The units have a self-buffing spell sure, but they can also pick a spell each from the spell lore as well so I think you will have a very flexible army when it comes to spell casting, and will be able to overcome most magic defenses simply through the sheer amount of spells you will be casting each turn. Attempting 7-8 spells per turn seems very doable, and that’s not counting Teclis.

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Come on all, we need to get these on the table for the doom and gloom starts about how abysmal the army will fare.  We don’t even have translations haha... 

 

The meta can’t even place Seraphon because of COVID and insufficient data.  Let’s all relax, and be optimistic that the army will be fun and competitive.  We’ve all waited for this moment.  

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19 minutes ago, Falkman said:

The units have a self-buffing spell sure, but they can also pick a spell each from the spell lore as well so I think you will have a very flexible army when it comes to spell casting, and will be able to overcome most magic defenses simply through the sheer amount of spells you will be casting each turn. Attempting 7-8 spells per turn seems very doable, and that’s not counting Teclis.

I’m thinking about maybe 4xspears, 4xarchers 2xcav as a core at only 1300 still leaves plenty for characters / elite stuff and is already a whole bunch of spells. I think Lumineth can make for a very interesting MSU army (which I’m a fan of). 

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1 hour ago, Nighthaunt Noob said:

This seems like a pretty tough statement to back up with any real facts. 

The biggest similarity I can see is that they are both have limited mobility when in defensive posture (Wardens in shining company), but they're going to be fielded in significantly different units sizes, the Wardens with their sunmetal weapons can deal out significantly more damage and have some unique anti charge abilities, and of course their highly noteworthy 3 inch reach. 

I think the word you're actually looking for is complimentary. What you see as similarity is actually thematic army cohesion. Both units can play off each other well to supplement each other's battlefield roles (for example by screening the wardens with the Stoneguard). 

I don't mean to suggest that the units warscrolls are identical or that they can't be used in a mutually supporting way, but rather that their battlefield roles are largely very similar. They are both slow, defense first infantry units that can do some damage when buffed. If you want a unit to fill a defensive holding role on the tabletop you can pick either one and be happy.

I will readily admit though that I think I overstated my case initially. I had forgotten about the stoneguard's pushing ability, which is really unique and interesting.

My point though is mostly a subjective one. I personally like armies that can function in a wide range of ways, so that if I invest in the faction I can build and paint like 3000 points of models and have a couple of different 2000 point armies that feel very different to play on the tabletop. The small size of LRL makes that much harder to accomplish, and it's made even harder when some of the warscrolls do very similar things.

I think it's remarkable though that despite filling very similar roles, wardens and sentinels are both attractive options and could easily both make their way into the same competitive list for exactly the reasons you state. That's pretty remarkable, and it shows real progression on GW's part. How many past tomes had units that occupied the same or similar role where one was just clearly better than the other? Although LRL is a small faction, the internal balance is remarkable. I don't see a single warscroll that can be obviously discounted for competitive use.

1 hour ago, Acid_Nine said:

@swarmofseals

You bring up some pretty good points. I don't know if the Lumineth have answers to things like the Mortek Crawlers or plague claw catapults besides trying to kill them with sentinels. We need a lot of spells, but don't have too many bonus's like Hallowheart does, nor do we have cheaper wizards like I think we need. Our big god model is squishy, but if we get him to work then look out. 

I do feel like we needed more models and more rules that would be good, but I do not know if it is all doom and gloom. Maybe we need some point adjustments (or maybe other factions need point adjustments), and we can certainly use some more units and more models to bring us up to a higher level, but I still think these guys have their place. The mortal wound potential can be insane if you have good dice, for example, and maybe the magic is a bit more tame compared to hallowheart or tzeentch (you know, the two masters of magic factions. ) but I believe they could do well. we don't even have the full book, just translations, so We'll see. I remain hopefully optimistic for it.

I feel the need to clarify here too. My statements weren't meant to be doom and gloom. If the army is a B at power level that makes it perfectly viable for competitive play -- it's just not so powerful that competitive play becomes a major draw to picking up the faction. My comments about comparisons to Hallowheart or OBR wasn't so much to suggest that LRL can't deal with those things, but rather to suggest that if all you are focusing on is how to be most competitive with a given playstyle there are other armies that play a similar game to LRL but look, at least based on first glance, to do a better job of it. So if you don't care if you paint skeletons or cow hats, you're probably going to pick skeletons. If you actually want to play LRL because you like the faction (for the models, the lore, or whatever reason) then it looks completely fine to me. I'd be just as surprised if LRL is a D or F tier faction as I would to find it at A or S tier.

Overall, I think I'm trying to speak more to the folks who are glancing at the tome and thinking that it's some horrible Lovecraftian nightmare of powercreep. I just don't see that at all.

1 hour ago, Falkman said:

The units have a self-buffing spell sure, but they can also pick a spell each from the spell lore as well so I think you will have a very flexible army when it comes to spell casting, and will be able to overcome most magic defenses simply through the sheer amount of spells you will be casting each turn. Attempting 7-8 spells per turn seems very doable, and that’s not counting Teclis.

Do we know this for sure? Almost every other "wizard unit" in the game has a stipulation that it can only cast the spell on its warscroll, and in compensation that spell can be cast by any number of units. I guess we will find out soon enough. If every unit can take spells from the spell lore than I'd probably revise my estimate up a bit as the magic will become a lot stronger against any faction that doesn't have an abundance of anti-magic.

48 minutes ago, Rhetoric said:

Come on all, we need to get these on the table for the doom and gloom starts about how abysmal the army will fare.  We don’t even have translations haha... 

 

The meta can’t even place Seraphon because of COVID and insufficient data.  Let’s all relax, and be optimistic that the army will be fun and competitive.  We’ve all waited for this moment.  

Just want to repeat a bit of what I said above. I don't know if you are specifically referring to me or not, but I really don't intend to be doom and gloom. A B battletome is still a good battletome, and you're absolutely right that we may be dealing with translation errors or even printing errors (non-english editions have been notorious for having important words left out or other issues). I think if you want to play LRL because it's LRL then the tome is absolutely solid. But if you're looking to bandwagon because OMG LRL is busted and you gotta get it if you want to compete.... then I'd recommend caution.

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Hey I am a native German speaker and thought I could help out in this forum and just give a translation for the leaks we have.

Skipping the point table since it should be self explanatory even in German. Though if questions arise feel free to ask.

Great Nations:

Iliatha

Add 2 to the bravery characteristic of VANARI- and AELEMTIRI-Units from ILIATHA  .

After a friendly VANARI-Unit from ILIATHA  uses a command ability, you can choose one friendly VANARI-Unit from ILIATHA  within 3'' of said unit. If you do so, the chosen unit can also use that command ability without spending a command point. You can only use this ability once per phase.

Command ability: You can use this command ability in your shooting- or combatphase. If you do this, choose 1  friendly VANARI-Unit from ILIATHA  with 2 or more models. You can reroll hit-rolls of 1 for that unit.

Artifact of power: The first time the bearer dies roll a dice. On a 1-3 the bearer dies. On a 4-6 the bearer does not die, all wounds allocated to him are healed and all wounds yet to be allocated to him are discarded.

 

Syar

SYAR-Units start the game with 2 aetherquarts instead of one.

Command ability: You can use this command ability when a friendly SYAR-Unit could use an aetherquarts ability, even if a friendly SYAR-Unit already used one in that phase. If you do so, choose one  friendly SYAR-Unit with at least 1 remaining aetherquarts and is completely within 18'' of a  friendly SYAR-HERO. The unit can spend 1 aetherquarts to use the aetherquarts ability. 

Command trait: At the beginning of the combatphase you can choose 1 enemy HERO within 6'' if the bearer. The chosen enemy HERO can only choose this general as a target in this phase. In adition you can add 1 to attacks targeting the chosen enemy HERO. (Here i would like to add that is does not specifically state that its only your generals attacks. So putting your general behind or into your pikemen would mean that those also get the +1. It would be synergistic with all heroes of us being noncombat oriented at least for the non named ones but it could also be sloppy writing on GWs part.) 

Artifact of power: Choose 1 melee weapon of the bearer. An unmodified hitroll of 3+ always hits. An unmodified woundroll of 3+ always wounds. An unmodified saferoll of 3 or less for wounds from this weapon are always failed.

Ymetrica

The trait "Hard as Stone" changes the rend characteristic of attacks targeting  ALARITH-Unit from YMETRICA  to "-" if the attacks targeting the unit have a rend characteristic of -1 or -2.

Command Ability: You can use this command ability at the end of the combatphase. If you do so choose 1 friendly  friendly ALARITH-Unit from YMETRICA that has just for the first time this phase forced an enemy unit to move with the "Tectonic Force" ability  and that is completely within 18'' of a friendly ALARITH-Hero from YMETRICA.  You can use the ability "Tectonic Force" again by choosing another enemy unit within 1'' of the chosen friendly unit.

Command Trait: When this general fights instead of piling in and attacking you can choose him to make a single powerful blow.  If you do so choose an enemy within 1'' and roll a dice, on a 2+ you deal d3 mortal wounds. 

Artifact of Power:  Choose 1 of the bearers melee weapons.  Once per phase you can add 1 to the damage inflicted by 1 of the weapons attacks. Aditionally whenever the bearer suffers a wound or mortal wound roll a dice. On a 6+ negate it. Aditionally whenever the bearer is affected by a spell or endless spell you can roll a dice. On a 5+ ignore the effects for the bearer.

Zaitrec

Add 1 to the first cast-, dispell- and unbindrolls of each friendly ZAITREC-WIZARD in each herophase. In addition each ZAITREC-WIZARD-HERO knows 1 additional spell from his lore of magic.

Command Trait: This General can try to unbind an additional spell in each of your enemies herophases. If he tries to unbind his second spell in the same herophase you may reroll it.

Artifact of Power: Roll a dice whenever assiging a wound or motal wound to the bearer. If Teclis is part of your army and on the battlefield add 2 to the roll. On a 6+ it is negated.

Lore of Zaitrec: Each ZAITREC-WIZARD knows this spell in addition to any other spells. This spell has a casting value of 7. If succesfully cast choose 1 enemy unit wholly within 24'' and visible to the caster.  Half the movement characteristic of the chosen unit until your next herophase. The roll a dice. When the roll equals or exceeds the savecharacteristic of the chosen unit suffers d3 mortal wounds.

 

This has taken some time and i dont want to spam this forum. If you would like me to translate the warscrolls and spells for you i would do that tomorrow. If this is too much spam and not needed i apologise.   

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27 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

Do we know this for sure? Almost every other "wizard unit" in the game has a stipulation that it can only cast the spell on its warscroll, and in compensation that spell can be cast by any number of units.

The page with the spell lore mentions that the units can pick spells from the lore, so seems pretty clear. It could be an editing mistake I guess.

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2 minutes ago, Acid_Nine said:

See the thing I just dont understand is this. What Vanari units can use command abilities? From what I have seen there are no vanari heroes that can do it. Do you just pick one and let it go for Iliatha?

What i think if you are refering to the reroll 1s is that every unit can use it on itself? because it doesnt talk about any hero unit and initself. We have a generic comman ability doing the rerolling 1s already dont we? so i would assume it is smth like that the infantry unit can do it on itself if they want to? it would be the only. reasonable thing with generic command abilties existing

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8 minutes ago, Acid_Nine said:

See the thing I just dont understand is this. What Vanari units can use command abilities? From what I have seen there are no vanari heroes that can do it. Do you just pick one and let it go for Iliatha?

That’s pretty much how all command abilities work? The rulebook says you need heroes in your army to use CAs, but it doesn’t say that the heroes are the ones actually using them. The regular three in the core book all seem to be used by the units themselves, they just need a hero nearby.

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I'm soo soo disappointed with this release :(

Feels like I've been waiting for Aelves a very long time, and when they announced Lumineth I was really excited to finally get to play an elven faction!
But after seeing the choices in the book I'm really disappointed.

The unit choices and variety is abysmal, the character choices and variety is also abysmal, there isn't even a single common fighting hero!
It's like there is no actual no choices at all in the book. I don't think I've seen this week a release in a long time when it comes to actually no named army choices!

So even if I like the models, this release seems to be a huge letdown :(

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10 minutes ago, Falkman said:

That’s pretty much how all command abilities work? The rulebook says you need heroes in your army to use CAs, but it doesn’t say that the heroes are the ones actually using them. The regular three in the core book all seem to be used by the units themselves, they just need a hero nearby.

I never saw it that way, but fair enough. Thanks! 

 

15 minutes ago, Duke of Mousillon said:

What i think if you are refering to the reroll 1s is that every unit can use it on itself? because it doesnt talk about any hero unit and initself. We have a generic comman ability doing the rerolling 1s already dont we? so i would assume it is smth like that the infantry unit can do it on itself if they want to? it would be the only. reasonable thing with generic command abilties existing

yea, I saw it almost as soon as I wrote it. Still, it's a cool ability and thanks for the translation!

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