Sons of Behemat Discussion 👣

[Obeisance]

What do you prefer:

a) Gatebreaker, Krakeneater, Krakeneater, 3 Mancrushers

b) Gatebreaker, Krakeneater, Warstomper, 3 Mancrushers

I assume you want three big ones and three little ones?

 

[Bompah]

On 8/17/2021 at 11:35 AM, Scurvydog said:

It is an allegiance that includes both command traits and artifacts, meaning the general HAS to take that trait and the first artifact MUST be from that allegiance.

For 27.4 to bite the general needs to have the sub-faction keyword. To the best of my understanding tribes do not add a keyword to a sons general or units.

Edited August 21, 2021 by Bompah

[Scurvydog]

31 minutes ago, Bompah said:

For 27.4 to bite the general needs to have the sub-faction keyword. To the best of my understanding tribes do not add a keyword to a sons general or units.

The thing is the Lord and Master rule says that the type of general defines the sub faction, Kraken Eater keyword on the general is then what defines you are a "taker tribe". This is also how the TO ruled this at my last tournament, so I guess you can check with your opponent/TO, but I'd also say Kraken Eater = Taker Tribe, the keyword defines the other.

[Bompah]

24 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

The thing is the Lord and Master rule says that the type of general defines the sub faction, Kraken Eater keyword on the general is then what defines you are a "taker tribe". This is also how the TO ruled this at my last tournament, so I guess you can check with your opponent/TO, but I'd also say Kraken Eater = Taker Tribe, the keyword defines the other.

I would have agreed with him if that added a “taker tribe” keyword to all units in the army. Other battle tomes specifically allocate keywords to all units based on their sub-faction. But sons does not, it gives you access to additional abilities based on your generals keyword. The sub faction keyword is not “KRAKEN EATER”, and no other unit in the army has that keyword unless you have taken an army of kraken eaters. 

But hey, TOs are free to rule as they like, but I would challenge it as not being RAW, and unlikely to be RAI. As if that is how GW had intended it, they could have just continued their practice of allocating a keyword to all the units in the army. 

[Congratz]

With 3rd edition being out for a while now.... whats the most competitve 2k list you can think of?

Going to a pretty big tournemant in my country. I've been collecting SoB since release but i still haven't got a single game with them! So i really have no clue whats great and all that

Cheers!

[Obeisance]

All the lists I'm doing well are Kraken/Breaker/3 minis. Plus either a second Kraken or Stomper.

Usually Taker. A combination of Amulet of Destiny, Glowy Lantern and Krakenskin Sandals.

Occasionally you see four fatbois, but it's usually 3 minis.

[Oldhat]

Is Taker just for "Get rid of 'em!"? I'm eyeballing Breaker for the Shiny 'Uns and Wannabes (Extremely Bitter) for the boosted rolls.

[Guui]

17 hours ago, Oldhat said:

Is Taker just for "Get rid of 'em!"? I'm eyeballing Breaker for the Shiny 'Uns and Wannabes (Extremely Bitter) for the boosted rolls.

As it is now, taker is the go to, since there are a plethora of ways to get +1 to hit, and since they dont stack, the extra models on objectives are useful

[Oldhat]

9 minutes ago, Guui said:

As it is now, taker is the go to, since there are a plethora of ways to get +1 to hit, and since they dont stack, the extra models on objectives are useful

I can only think of "All Out Attack" off the top of my head. With MSU as the default for a lot of lists now thanks to coherency, is the extra models that worthwhile? Has it been that clutch for anyone?

[Guui]

51 minutes ago, Oldhat said:

I can only think of "All Out Attack" off the top of my head. With MSU as the default for a lot of lists now thanks to coherency, is the extra models that worthwhile? Has it been that clutch for anyone?

Imo its more so access to the kracken eater artifacts and traits. Being able to take a trait and getting a wizard and 5+ ward on the gatebreaker. But it also means that youll never have to really worry about who controls the objective. If youre on it, its yours!

[Lord Krungharr]

Tried out the Taker Tribe, one of each w 3 single Mancrushers tonight vs Slaves to Darkness.  Mission was Apex Predators.

He had a Manticore Sorcerer, Krakadrak Lord, Sorcerer, 3x5 Knights w sorcelled weapons, 4 chariots, and 3 varanguards.

I had the Glowy Lantern/Sandals w Amulet of Destiny on the Gatebreaker.  I went first and hopped onto the objectives which I held all of until the end of turn 4 when my Warstomper finally fell to 2x5 Knights, the Manticore, and 2 Varanguards left.  I was always ahead on points because of the Mightier Makes Rightier of course, but also accomplishing a couple Battle Tactics with monsters assisted the edge ahead.  We both Held the Line for Grand Strategy.

Apex Predators is a terribly boring mission, especially for the Sons.  At least he went about charging me turn 2.  I initially kicked the center objective back with my Kraken Eater (who should have been to the right side for safety) but then he Soulsnared the center of the table so I slowly kicked up that objective, failed to achieve a Battle Tactic turn 3, but then got the Savage Spearhead turn 4 after running the Kraken Eater and a Mancrusher.  Turn 5 I ran those and my Gatebreaker together to get Ferocious Advance.  Boring end as I couldn't charge after running.  But he charged his Manticore into my Kraken Eater turn 5 and took all but 1 wound, then struck with his spiky tail, hit, and failed to wound....  My General LIVES!

Glowy Lantern did jack squat for me.  I think I'll take the -1 to hit CT next time.  Seems more useful as it's always turned on.  Magick schmagick.   Very happy with the new White Dwarf Tome Celestial battalions though.  Warstomper is meh vs Knights but I could see playing Manskittles as highly wonderful vs thinks like Skaven or Lumineth.  With Finest Hour and All Out Attack, not too bad at all.  

Might give Kragnos a whirl instead of the Gatebreaker next time and see if his thwacking power can trade off vs the Gatebreaker.  He won't have the objective holding though.

[Magnus The Blue]

Thinking about using a Mega-Tank list, basically making a very defensive mega-gargant that can charge onto you're opponents home objective turn one and sit there as long as possible soaking up damage.

My First list idea was

Stompier Tribe: Hold the Line

Bosses of the Swap Battalion (extra artifact):

Warstomper (General): Monsteriously Tough, Ironweld Cestus

Gatebreaker: Arcane Tomb (flaming weapon)

Footsloggas Battalion(Unified)

Kraken Eater

3*1 Mancrushers

So the basic plan is the Gatebreaker stays reasonably near the Warstomper to toss Mystic Shielf and All out defence on him, giving you (hopefully) +2 save to go with full rerolls, thus near unkillable General who goes right into the enemy lines turn 1 to cause havok.  

I also like that Stompier Tribe gives those Mancrushers more bite if they can get into big units, but worry that losing the General's normal command abilities is too high a price to pay for that (and access to the Cestus).

So two questions for the community:

1) Is the core idea a good one?

2) Is there a better way of doing it?

[Guui]

2 hours ago, Magnus The Blue said:

Thinking about using a Mega-Tank list, basically making a very defensive mega-gargant that can charge onto you're opponents home objective turn one and sit there as long as possible soaking up damage.

My First list idea was

Stompier Tribe: Hold the Line

Bosses of the Swap Battalion (extra artifact):

Warstomper (General): Monsteriously Tough, Ironweld Cestus

Gatebreaker: Arcane Tomb (flaming weapon)

Footsloggas Battalion(Unified)

Kraken Eater

3*1 Mancrushers

So the basic plan is the Gatebreaker stays reasonably near the Warstomper to toss Mystic Shielf and All out defence on him, giving you (hopefully) +2 save to go with full rerolls, thus near unkillable General who goes right into the enemy lines turn 1 to cause havok.  

I also like that Stompier Tribe gives those Mancrushers more bite if they can get into big units, but worry that losing the General's normal command abilities is too high a price to pay for that (and access to the Cestus).

So two questions for the community:

1) Is the core idea a good one?

2) Is there a better way of doing it?

As good as rerolling saves is, the amulet is a far better artifact. Without healing, and with 0 saves taken, it gives the 40w mega the equivalent of about 70ish wounds. And you cant get much tankier than a 3+ save, 40w 5+ ward model, thats healing.

[Oldhat]

Current list I'm considering building. The goal would be to heavily convert everyone to have a cowl so cement the Breaker theme. Haven't had any table time with 3.0, so I'm hoping y'all have some thoughts.

Breaker Tribe - Shiny 'Uns

GS: Beast Master

Bosses of the Stomp

Gatebreaker w/ Amulet, Extremely Bitter: Wannabes

Kraken-eater w/ Arcane Time

Footsloggas (Swift)

Warstomper

3x solo Gargants

1995pts 141W

Swift specifically for the freebie Command Ability. Boosted run or reroll charge seemed useful. List still features Amulet for GBG and the ability to toss Shield via Kraken-eater.

Any thoughts?

[Lord Krungharr]

I'm of the opinion that the Swift bonus is best for a Mancrusher Mob.  Then a unit of 3 could run and charge with the 6" for free, and use a CP for All Out Attack to break some ranks hardcore.  Their range can reach over tiny round bases too.

Still not convinced taking a wizarding artefact is superior to a damaging artefact (Vial of Manticore Venom is looking good to me).  

[Guui]

2 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

I'm of the opinion that the Swift bonus is best for a Mancrusher Mob.  Then a unit of 3 could run and charge with the 6" for free, and use a CP for All Out Attack to break some ranks hardcore.  Their range can reach over tiny round bases too.

Still not convinced taking a wizarding artefact is superior to a damaging artefact (Vial of Manticore Venom is looking good to me).  

Consider this:

The chance to deny spells and the ability to use Flaming Weapon for +1 damage on the club.

[Lord Krungharr]

Mmmyeah, that is tasty.  BUT I failed to cast or unbind everything in my most recent game.  And he was only using Slaves to Darkness.  When it works it would be amazing, but over time I think the non-wizarding would pay off more steadily.   

[Magnus The Blue]

8 hours ago, Guui said:

Consider this:

The chance to deny spells and the ability to use Flaming Weapon for +1 damage on the club.

Offensively, Manticore Venom definitely feels better, but a wizard give you access to Mystic Shield (which can be applied to the Gargant in the thickest fighting) and give you both an unbind and the option of a dispell (without using up a heroic action), so feels like a better all round choice given the flexibility.

[Magnus The Blue]

17 hours ago, Guui said:

As good as rerolling saves is, the amulet is a far better artifact. Without healing, and with 0 saves taken, it gives the 40w mega the equivalent of about 70ish wounds. And you cant get much tankier than a 3+ save, 40w 5+ ward model, thats healing.

(actually the equivalent to exactly 60 wounds, on average)

The Amulet is great, but only superior to the Cestus against Mortal wounds and net rend 2 or better.  Given the number of +Saves about (Finest Hour, All Out Defence and Mystic Shield) and very little rend 3, Cestus is usually only worse against mortal wounds.  When your saving on 3+ the Cestus Mega-Gargant is literally twice as durable than Amulet Mega-Gargant.  

Naturally their is an opportunity cost to the Cestus (Stompier tribe is otherwise undoubtable the weakest Tribe), but I still think it's a viable option. 

[Lord Krungharr]

Gatebreaker with the amulet, and Warstomper with Caestus, plus 2 Mancrusher Mobs...that sounds pretty good to me.  Gatebreaker can be using regular CAs whilst the Warstomper can use the Stomper CAs, so some things can almost be done twice per phase like Mancrushers running 6" and then charging....and then causing extra damage with their clubs.  I might have to make more Mancrushers to try it out now.

[Guui]

15 hours ago, Magnus The Blue said:

(actually the equivalent to exactly 60 wounds, on average)

The Amulet is great, but only superior to the Cestus against Mortal wounds and net rend 2 or better.  Given the number of +Saves about (Finest Hour, All Out Defence and Mystic Shield) and very little rend 3, Cestus is usually only worse against mortal wounds.  When your saving on 3+ the Cestus Mega-Gargant is literally twice as durable than Amulet Mega-Gargant.  

Naturally their is an opportunity cost to the Cestus (Stompier tribe is otherwise undoubtable the weakest Tribe), but I still think it's a viable option. 

While i wont disagree after checking that out (also thanks for the correct wounds on the mega) I feel that mortals are more prevalent than you gave them credit for.

Opportunity cost aside, any mega can be given a 3+ save (which we will assume is always a 3+ cause AoD, Mystic Shield and Finest Hour), the comparison should really be between rerolling the 3+ save and a 3+ save 5+ ward.

Either way, we can make a tanky lad

[Magnus The Blue]

7 hours ago, Guui said:

While i wont disagree after checking that out (also thanks for the correct wounds on the mega) I feel that mortals are more prevalent than you gave them credit for.

Opportunity cost aside, any mega can be given a 3+ save (which we will assume is always a 3+ cause AoD, Mystic Shield and Finest Hour), the comparison should really be between rerolling the 3+ save and a 3+ save 5+ ward.

Either way, we can make a tanky lad

Yup, that's the comparison I was making 3+ with reroll takes half as much damage as 3+ then 5+.

But yes there are a lot of Mortal wounds in the meta right now, so that can't be ignored.

[Scurvydog]

7 hours ago, Magnus The Blue said:

Yup, that's the comparison I was making 3+ with reroll takes half as much damage as 3+ then 5+.

But yes there are a lot of Mortal wounds in the meta right now, so that can't be ignored.

It is a great great artifact and with less hordes, taker tribes loses a bit of value. I am now thinking perhaps a stomper tribe with 1 of each mega and 3 single man crushers got some play. Cestus and 3d6 charge on stomper and amulet on breaker. For 1 CP you can auto run all 3 single mancrushers into good positions turn 1.the little guys can also assist in clearing any potential hordes much more easily. 

3d6 charge is good against the many khorne demon princes popping up lately and with Cestus and amulet there are 2 super tank gargants. 

[The Wah]

Our long shanks are getting even longer in the recent FAQ

Mega-gargants can now step over all other models and terrain. 

It's a good time to be big

 

Edit - And I think the Gate-Breaker 6+ invulnerable portcullis can be stacked with the Amulet of Destiny 5+ invulnerable save. That would be a sturdy cowled big-un.

Edited August 27, 2021 by The Wah

[Oldhat]

How would you get the two artifacts on the same Gatebreaker though?