Sons of Behemat Discussion 👣

[Vurtias]

On 7/16/2021 at 8:50 AM, Fellman said:

Wath is  mancrusher mobs? has it special rules?

With the changes to reinforcing units and their points, you now either buy a single mancrusher or a unit of 3 called a mob which comes with a slight discount like it did before 3rd. Functionally there is no difference to how we had it before.

[Lord Krungharr]

On 7/15/2021 at 10:22 PM, vinnyt said:

Really think GW dropped the ball with adjusting SoB for 3rd edition. They pretty much win uncontested outside of very specific counterbuilds (Kragnos). 

 

The ability to kick objectives while guaranteeing that you'll basically lock your opponent out of scoring for the first 3 turns while maxing out battle points is just something that doesn't seem balanced. 

 

Here's my list for reference: It's Taker tribe for guaranteed objective control and 3 drops so I can generally dictate who goes first.

Kraken Eater w/ -1 to hit command trait

Gatebreaker w/ 5+ ward save artifact

Warstomper (Battle Regiment)

Mancrusher (Battle Regiment)

Mancrusher (Battle Regiment)

Mancrusher (Battle Regiment)

1995 points

Grand Strategy: Keep battleline alive for automatic 3 points. Not even a debate. You're not gonna table me and everything is battleline.

Turn 1: Ferocious advance for auto 3 points (usually with 2 mancrushers and the warstomper), I kick a home objective on my weakest flank towards the center while running the megas onto my opponents objectives. The mancrushers are vital here to hang back and cap my home objectives if I'm going first. If not and I have control of my home objectives, then I just chuck everything forward. 

 Turn 2 is savage spearhead for auto 3 points. After that, I cycle through destroy battleline unit for 3 points, bring it down for 3 points, and then usually the 5th turn doesn't matter but it's a cinch to pick up any of the other ones. Usually I do monstrous takeover wherever their monsters aren't.

What's also insane is that the bonus VP for killing monsters is capped at one per turn, no matter how many monsters they kill that turn. This means that in almost every scenario, you'll give up at most 3 VP from this while likely getting at least 1 from the opponent. 

So, now that I think it's pretty well established that your additional battle tactic points should fairly well offset the possible points you'll give up by being an army of monsters. If your opponent is running 3+ monsters you might even come out ahead (Gatebreaker vs Treelord lol).

What this really means for scoring is that by preventing your opponent scoring for 1 turn while maximizing your own points will put you up by an enormous margin. I've played probably 10 games of 3.0 and every single game has been pretty well determined by me scoring 7ish points to my opponents' 3 points for one turn and then just getting battle tactics. You can see some of my battle reports on the Sylvaneth page (not fun for my local meta to play against Sons anymore)

Ok, let's go scenario by scenario. 

 

Marking Territory: Auto gargant win- controlling objectives is what we do and there's no way an opponent can outcompete 135 "models" of objective control

Savage Gains: I get 4 points for controlling your objective and you can't let me go first or else I plop 2 megas on your objective and guarantee the win. Any disproportionately high objective scoring mission hugely favors gargants and this one is no different. I expect my opponent to get at most 3 points at any time during the game while I should easily score 5-9 without any trouble. Fewer objectives means that losing a mega or 2 doesn't matter since the mancrushers can easily outcompete most everything.

First Blood: Three midline objectives means I put a mega and mancrusher on each one and you somehow have to fit 45 models worth to contest it on each one. Turn 2 I kick my kraken objective towards the center to even further consolidate or away from a spooky enemy. This one is a little tough to score savage spearhead but since I'll be getting 3 points every turn while my opponent gets 1 at most, it's not a big deal. 

Power Struggle: Only scoring points for controlling objectives for consecutive turns is so favorable for us that it's unfair. This is where I'd even consider 2 kraken eaters for kicking. I've only played this once and by running 2 mancrushers across the entire table, I've been able to completely shut down my opponent's scoring. This is one of our weaker scenarios though, since you'll only ever get 3 objective points per turn. But this also means that scoring 3 points to your opponent's 1 point is a huge deal. Also where the unbalanced nature of monster bonus points for battle tactics is clear. For this scenario, denying your opponent's grand strategy at the cost of some objective play is completely reasonable and something to ask yourself at the start of each turn. 

Survival of the Fittest: Ironically this is one where we win by objectives and not by killing. Opposing predator units are likely killier than the megas but you know what? They only get one point for that while objectives are worth 3 per turn. So sure, kill all my megas with your predators while losing none in return and I'll still win on objectives and battle tactics (I have never lost all 3 megas and don't even think it's possible to do so if you remember that fighting is super optional in this army). 3 midline objectives also mean you have an enormous advantage with the 3 "squads" of 45 "models"

Tectonic Interference:  It's like survival of the fittest except even more predictable and easy to win. Just kick a flank objective towards the center and go sit on it to win. That's it. That's all you have to do. Huge territories mean savage spearhead is automatic and as always, objective control spiralling early game is the key to success.

Apex Predators: Extremely favorable. Megas are leaders. They move onto objectives. That's it. You win. Your opponent may have one leader that can bully a mega and steal an objective from you. But you know what? You've got 2 more and they're on a clock. And that clock is HEAVILY in your favor. 

Vice: Very interesting one but also one that's skewed towards you. Just move the megas to where your opponent's objectives will be while keeping one in the middle for turns 4 and 5. Mancrushers cap initially and then run to score battle tactics while you just freeze out your opponent's scoring. I have a sylvaneth battle report which shows how doing this severely skews the game in your favor. 

Tooth and Nail: Very loseable. That's right. This one can actually be a little tricky. You're still heavily favored, but it's not as automatic as usual. 4 Objectives with controlling them only being worth an additional 1 VP means it's harder to mathematically win before the megas could theoretically die. Haven't played this one with gargs yet. Might need to actually see how they do here. 

Feral Foray: Similar to Tooth and Nail but much easier to win. Huge territories mean savage spearhead is easy. Kickable objectives to stop opponent burning/enable your burning means you just run up, burn, and move on. You only need to control 2 objectives to max out points (2 for 2, 1 for more than opponent), which means the mancrusher suicide burn (which happens after you score VP- so at the end of your turn) is an easy tactic. Plus then your opponent has to move through/around the mancrusher to try and threaten other objectives. An ideal turn would be you controlling 4 objectives and then burning the most threatened one. You score 3+1 to your opponent's 2 (at most). Next turn you rinse and repeat so you score 3+1 but now they will only have 1 objective and if they somehow drag a second off of you, you're still up 8-4 which is an insane margin when you consider you probably have the battle tactic bonus point or 2. 

Power in Numbers: Easy win. You sit on your objectives for 4 turns while threatening theirs. If they go for a quick burn you just wait like one turn and then mathematically win. Example: They see you coming with the mancrusher snipes and torch their objectives on turn 2 for a total of 6 points. You know they can definitely take one objective off of you and maybe a second. So when it seems like maybe a mega is in trouble or in a bad engagement. You burn it on turn 3/4 for 4 points. If you can keep one till turn 5 (easy for SoB, like so so easy), then the 8 points there is untouchable.

Veins of Ghur: Another super favorable one. 3 kickable objectives that can't be removed and get more valuable the later you sit on them means that you can easily react to a crappy objective placement and then just sit and win. 

 

Ok, I hear what you're saying- "It's so easy to kill a mega gargant, everyone can do it." This is hilariously untrue. Many armies straight up can't realistically kill a mega in a turn. Just flat out no. Thanks for playing nighthaunt, KO, etc, etc. All out Defense on a mega is BRUTAL. Let's run some numbers. 

 

This here is Gotrek in a single activation (I know he gets 2) in which he pops all out attack and I pop all out defense on my kraken eater (who is -1 to hit). On average he does 28.3 Wounds which means I still hold an objective. In my turn I leave combat and still hold an objective. If he doubles me, then sure he gets that point for one turn. Until I move a mancrusher on it on my turn and retake it. 

Oh, and against the gatebreaker he does less than 20 wounds, even hitting on a 2+ (that 5+ ward is disgusting). 

These megas are not easy to kill and will absolutely provide a huge (scoring) roadblock for any opponent while straight up locking out certain armies from even competing against them. 

So, in conclusion, I've talked a lot about mathematically locking opponents out of the game with early objective play so here's what that would look like.

 

Scenario is, let's say First Blood. I'm playing against a fast army that can one shot a mega with a Big Bad while also having no monsters for me to kill and I can't kill the Big Bad (so has pretty insane output). I'll also purposefully refuse to give myself the chance to double turn because that's just unfair with gargs since 2 uninterrupted scoring turns is game over huge win. 

I'll go first. I declare ferocious advance and get all 3 objectives with 2 mancrushers and a stomper on the one nearest his power center, gatebreaker and mancrusher on the one next closest, and kraken on his weakest. 

I score 6 points.

Opponent turn one. He is gonna kill a mancrusher but not the warstomper with his Big Bad but can't take any objectives from me. I'm not gonna let his big bad kill 2 mancrushers in a single activation and I'll easily screen the warstomper with a mancrusher.

He scores 4 points (kill a monster, battle tactic with a monster because why not)

I'll give him the double turn because sure, why not. 

He kills the warstomper and takes that objective through 15 mancrusher wounds.

He scores 4 points (one objective, kill a monster, 2 point battle tactic)

My turn. I easily kill a battleline unit of his since savage spearhead is hard to score. Kraken eater kicks objective away from his big bad.

 I score 6 points (2 objectives, more than him, battle tactic with monster)

His turn 3- I remove his objective and his Big Bad kills the gatebreaker and somehow captures the objective through 15 ablative mancrusher wounds. 

He scores 4 points (kill a monster, has an objective, battle tactic)

My turn 3- I happily do whatever, kick my objective even farther away while FAILING A BATTLE TACTIC and pretending to not be killing any of his other monsters

I score 1 point. (objective)

For his turn 4 I assume i just have my krakeneater left and maybe a mancrusher. He won't be able to reach them with the Big Bad since I've been kicking objectives all over the place. 

He scores 3 points. (objective, BT)

 My turn 4 I declare savage spearhead with the krakeneater and mancrusher easily getting into his territory while kicking the objective.

I score 4 points (one objective and battle tactic with monsters

Turn 5 repeats itself except I'll give him the krakeneater kill. He'll score 4 points since I still have that mancrusher left and then my final turn plays out and I score 3 points since I held on to monstrous takeover and that kicked objective for the endgame.

Final score is 23-22 me winning despite getting doubled in turn 2 with an opponent who is killier than Gotrek without taking any other monsters and also not having to worry about his general dying. In that absolute worst case scenario, and I mean I can't think of a theory-hammer army where this could realistically occur, I still win. If at any point I snipe a monster of his, I get 2 additional VPs. If at any point he doesn't one shot my defensively-teched megas, I "get" two points by denying him a monster kill and likely an objective. If he misses out a battle tactic at any point, I win. If I miss a battle tactic at any point, I still win. 

Sons of Behemat are insanely good this edition. I fully expect to see them dominating most tournaments until something changes. 

Thank you for this excellent analysis with Tactic by Tactic and Scenario lessons!  I'm printing this out to study...got a 2K event in October.  Was thinking of going 2 Gatebreakers/2Warstompers but gonna try out your list build for practice this weekend.

[vinnyt]

Just now, Lord Krungharr said:

Thank you for this excellent analysis with Tactic by Tactic and Scenario lessons!  I'm printing this out to study...got a 2K event in October.  Was thinking of going 2 Gatebreakers/2Warstompers but gonna try out your list build for practice this weekend.

Let us all know how it goes (both the tournament and practice game)! I personally like the mancrushers since having them stay back in your territory doesn't feel as bad as having a mega do that. They also let you do very cheeky objective snipes and are shockingly quick with run and charge near a mega. But, tbh, I also only own 3 magnetized megas and 9 mancrushers so playing with 4 megas isn't something I have any experience with. 

I'd definitely run taker tribe without any hesitation. AoS 3 is interesting in that monsters got both way killier and also way tankier. Don't forget that you can pop finest hour on all 3 of your megas in addition to all out defense which will put them on a 3+ ignoring the first point of rend. 

Oh, also, don't be afraid to not charge or seek out engagements. Sons can do a lot of damage, but that won't win you the game. You just have to keep stuff alive and on your objectives. Do NOT CHARGE A KO IRONCLAD. KO should be an auto-win if you make him kill you instead of try to kill him- Last Word and Unleash hell will actually melt your megas since it's like 2 free shooting phases.

Only thing to watch out for is maneuvering your huge bases (honestly not too tough but watch for things like endless spells preventing you from ending your move on an objective like you want to. 

Otherwise magic is mostly annoying rather than threatening. The Nagash bomb is funny but you can unironically beat him to death with the 5+ ward finest hour'd gatebreaker.

Armies that ~could~ cause problems: 

DoK with Morathi and Gotrek- lots of output with models you can't kill. Just outscore them and be sure to use finest hour on the garg they tag team. Gotrek is slow slow slow. Kick objectives away from him. If your opponent splits up morathi and gotrek then he's already lost since neither can realistically solo a mega in one turn. 

Counter Garg Garg build- this is the one I would take to any tournament. It's my Sons list but with Kragnos instead of the Gatebreaker (the warstomper gets the ward save) and you also only get to take 2 mancrushers. Kragnos gives you a shot to pretty much insta-gib an opposing garg and the list still generally plays super well in 3.0. I will say that this list is vulnerable to non-garg lists since kragnos only counts as 5 models and 16 wounds doesn't go as far as 35. 

9 Stormfiend Skaven- This one is pretty damn scary in general. Immediately kill the engineer who casts MMWP and try to stay out of 12" range of the Stormfiends. They can only really threaten one garg at a time but until you kill their support they will absolutely ruin you. Good players will run a screen about 6" in front of the fiends so if you charge it the fiends get to unleash hell and wipe the unit. So just charge with a mancrusher first. You might think you can just throw a mega in the block and win, but even a fully juiced gatebreaker will only get about 15-20 wounds which kills about 3 stormfiends and none of the rattling guns. But if you kill the engineers then you win- the fiends aren't a big deal then. 

Double Cabbage Ironjawz- probably actually the toughest matchup. Juiced cabbage can kill fairly reliably a mega in a turn and only gets more efficient. But if you kill that model or it whiffs for a phase, it only counts as 5 models so you'll still get to deny for a turn. The Cabbage with -3 rend is the only one that can actually do damage through the +2 save you'll always have (all out defense and finest hour). Otherwise just try not to roll badly. 2 cabbages and kragnos is very very scary. But! They're getting a new book soon so who even knows what will be happening. Kruleboyz are nothing to be worried about as of now- need to see the rest of their warscrolls though. 

 

People think Archaon is scary but he really isn't. Double activating him with all out attack into a finest hourd and all out defensed warstomper with no defensive tech does (on average) a whopping... 17 wounds... You won't hurt him back but who cares. You win on objectives. Just kill the marauders and varanguard with the other megas and try to shoot off the little buff characters.

Gotrek is actually pretty scary but slow enough to be maneuvered around. Redeploying a mega gargant outside his reach is something you should always budget a command point for. If he wants to eat mancrushers while you keep holding objectives that is 100% good for you. He can only be one place at a time and always be kicking objectives away from him 

 

Lumineth sentinel spam is irrelevant since doing 10-15 mortal wounds means nothing to us and if you charge them the whole block immediately dies. 

Lizardmen are kinda maybe tricky? Just kill their monsters and let them sprinkle 20 mortal wounds throughout your army while never taking objectives from you. All their nonmonster tech is really just designed to efficiently kill hordes/support characters. They ain't ripping through a mega. 

Haven't played flesh eater courts in 3.0. They're probably fairly scary but they're also pretty fragile so just hit em hard. They do 18 mortal wounds to a mega, you don't really mind. They're still something to watch out for- again, redeploy is your friend. 

 

 

But yeah, those are just some things off the top of my head that I'd be considering when taking Sons to a tournament. Granted, the Ironjawz and FEC are pretty off-meta but I can almost guarantee you'll run into 9 stormfiends and archaon. Remember to kill the engineers and you'll be totally fine. 

 

 

 

[Drazhoath]

Fought against Nighthaunt yesterday with a funny list with Kragnos.

Taker Tribe

Krakeneater with the Spell Tome 

Warstomper with the Lantern

Kragnos

2x Mancrusher 

Was funny having two Casting giants (one for Mystic Shield, one for Arcane Bolt or these flaming sword). Kragnos works pretty well! His scream with d3 mortal wounds killed a lot😁

I won in turn 3.

[Karazla]

Started sons as my 3.0 army net to my started troggoth army. 

Played with the from vinnyt it totaly destroyed my opponent army.

 

Kraken Eater w/ -1 to hit command trait

Gatebreaker w/ 5+ ward save artifact

Warstomper (Battle Regiment)

Mancrusher (Battle Regiment)

Mancrusher (Battle Regiment)

Mancrusher (Battle Regiment)

the -1 to hit was awsome and mancrushers screens where terrific.

Only thing i am worrid about is oure anti magic we dont realy have it next to 1 per turn.

 

 

[tripchimeras]

So its looking like currently the dominant lists in the (admittedly extremely early) meta are all archaon lists.  Either Archaon + Belekor, or Archaon + kairos in Tzeentch.  Anyone have a chance to test SoB out against any Archaon and/or Tzeentch builds yet?  I'm unsure how the matchup looks for us at the moment.  We would need to bring an incredibly large percentage of our army to bear on him to have any sort of real chance  to kill him, which would mean deploying fairly tightly which only works in some of the scenarios.  And with all of the tzeentch summons I'm not sure how realistic it is for us to maintain that.  I need to do the math but seems like 2 combat phases is the most you can expect a mega to survive in combat with Archaon (especially if the list has a chaos lord to doll out double activations on him).  I guess the one benefit is that past Archaon I'm not sure how much damage the rest of the lists have to put out against us?  So assuming Archaon is the only real threat to take down a mega (big assumption I don't feel super great about there), I guess we can just delay combat with him as long as possible and then hope to lock him up for 2 turns with 1 mega and then hope that by the time he gets out of it we have an  insurmountable lead.  But this assumes a lot, so I'm not sure this is a great matchup for us...  

TLDR feels like we would need 3 megas to take him out in a turn or 2, which seems difficult to orchestrate without sacrificing VP, so avoidance seems like play, but I don't have enough Tzeentch experience to know how much damage these lists are putting out aside from him.  

PS Did some number crunching tonight and it looks at his base, without the substantial spell backup available in tzeetnch, as long as we are able to get up a +1 armor buff; a single mega should survive a turn of combat (heavily damaged) even if he gets double activation and has finest hour up.  However, with the extremely attainable access to things like +1 attack, +1 damage, destiny dice etc It seems like a prepared charge from Archaon, backed up by chaos lord, can likely 1 hit a mega unless he's got the amulet of destiny.  So it seems like whether he has a chaos lord backing him up is pretty freaking important to how we address an Archaon list.  Assuming he does seems like finding a way to kill or separate the lord from him is pretty paramount to beating the list.  Otherwise its going to be tough going finding ways to slow archaon down while also staying ahead on VP if a mega can't even hold him up for a turn.

Edited July 20, 2021 by tripchimeras

[Karazla]

Heej Tripchimeras,

I played that tzeentch archaon list yesterday. I crushed it in 1 turn. That how awsome i am  

But i have to say: he didnt get the reroll save off with his blue scribe abilitie so yeah.( he forgot his destiny dice he just rolled). I Had the amulet on my gatebreaker and it realy killed his archaon. We played savage gains. He had turn 1 charged. HE only did 12 wsounds on my gatebreaker against 13 on him. IN my turn i brought in the kraken eater with -1 to hit and i just killed him with my gatebreaker. My small giant could charge into his backline because he left a hole so i took out his chaos lord, magister and blue scribes in two turns with him.  I think a gatebreaker can bring archaon down with the amulet. Because when you can get to his support characters they die easy. 

Next up i played savage gains against a o my god so strong sylvaneht list. The dude is one of my best mates but knows sylvaneth like his own pants. I lost 25 - 20 but he just destroyed me completely. I couldnt stop his offensive magic and he easily had +3 save so he nullified oure rend.
HE played: 
1x warsong revenant
1x durthu
1x treelord ancient
1x the kurnoth hunter hero dude with the wings
2x 3 sword kurnoth 
Some other stuff, cogs and mirror.

with the warsong spell he killed in two turns two small giants and 24 wounds on my warstomper. With The plus 3 save sylvaneth can give to everybody my rend didnt work on anything and even with the -2 rend he stil got +1. He could focus my giants one by one and still get enough point because my army was gone on turn three. I failed a lot of dice rolls in the first two a three turns. Like i didnt make any saves etc. But against caster its realy difficult.

When a army can deny oure rend as sylvaneth can and then just spellbomb us like kroak and teclis on steriods. What can we do to win. I think i should have taken the first turn tho. 

Was thinking of bringing the wizard giants for extra dispels and some endless spell but i dont know if that is good or bad.

[Drazhoath]

35 minutes ago, Karazla said:

Heej Tripchimeras,

I played that tzeentch archaon list yesterday. I crushed it in 1 turn. That how awsome i am  

But i have to say: he didnt get the reroll save off with his blue scribe abilitie so yeah.( he forgot his destiny dice he just rolled). I Had the amulet on my gatebreaker and it realy killed his archaon. We played savage gains. He had turn 1 charged. HE only did 12 wsounds on my gatebreaker against 13 on him. IN my turn i brought in the kraken eater with -1 to hit and i just killed him with my gatebreaker. My small giant could charge into his backline because he left a hole so i took out his chaos lord, magister and blue scribes in two turns with him.  I think a gatebreaker can bring archaon down with the amulet. Because when you can get to his support characters they die easy. 

Next up i played savage gains against a o my god so strong sylvaneht list. The dude is one of my best mates but knows sylvaneth like his own pants. I lost 25 - 20 but he just destroyed me completely. I couldnt stop his offensive magic and he easily had +3 save so he nullified oure rend.
HE played: 
1x warsong revenant
1x durthu
1x treelord ancient
1x the kurnoth hunter hero dude with the wings
2x 3 sword kurnoth 
Some other stuff, cogs and mirror.

with the warsong spell he killed in two turns two small giants and 24 wounds on my warstomper. With The plus 3 save sylvaneth can give to everybody my rend didnt work on anything and even with the -2 rend he stil got +1. He could focus my giants one by one and still get enough point because my army was gone on turn three. I failed a lot of dice rolls in the first two a three turns. Like i didnt make any saves etc. But against caster its realy difficult.

When a army can deny oure rend as sylvaneth can and then just spellbomb us like kroak and teclis on steriods. What can we do to win. I think i should have taken the first turn tho. 

Was thinking of bringing the wizard giants for extra dispels and some endless spell but i dont know if that is good or bad.

I am curious how he managed to bring so many mortal wounds with this spell in only two rounds Oo Did he cast it every time with a Double 6 and rolled 12 times 5+? 😂

I played against Nighthaunt on weekend. Every unit ignored my rend but I almost tabled hin in turn 3. Mortal wounds and stuff them in the bag/net are King 

[tripchimeras]

7 hours ago, Karazla said:

Heej Tripchimeras,

I played that tzeentch archaon list yesterday. I crushed it in 1 turn. That how awsome i am  

But i have to say: he didnt get the reroll save off with his blue scribe abilitie so yeah.( he forgot his destiny dice he just rolled). I Had the amulet on my gatebreaker and it realy killed his archaon. We played savage gains. He had turn 1 charged. HE only did 12 wsounds on my gatebreaker against 13 on him. IN my turn i brought in the kraken eater with -1 to hit and i just killed him with my gatebreaker. My small giant could charge into his backline because he left a hole so i took out his chaos lord, magister and blue scribes in two turns with him.  I think a gatebreaker can bring archaon down with the amulet. Because when you can get to his support characters they die easy. 

Yeah I think if he gets the reroll saves and a +1 or 2 on Archaon's armor I think its really hard to bring him down that quickly.  But that is definitely encouraging!  Yeah I think Amulet of Destiny on the gatebreaker is definitely our best defense.  Encouraging you didn't have an issue with him though!  Thanks for relaying your experience!

[Lord Krungharr]

10 hours ago, Karazla said:

Next up i played savage gains against a o my god so strong sylvaneht list. The dude is one of my best mates but knows sylvaneth like his own pants. I lost 25 - 20 but he just destroyed me completely. I couldnt stop his offensive magic and he easily had +3 save so he nullified oure rend.
HE played: 
1x warsong revenant
1x durthu
1x treelord ancient
1x the kurnoth hunter hero dude with the wings
2x 3 sword kurnoth 
Some other stuff, cogs and mirror.

with the warsong spell he killed in two turns two small giants and 24 wounds on my warstomper. With The plus 3 save sylvaneth can give to everybody my rend didnt work on anything and even with the -2 rend he stil got +1. He could focus my giants one by one and still get enough point because my army was gone on turn three. I failed a lot of dice rolls in the first two a three turns. Like i didnt make any saves etc. But against caster its realy difficult.

When a army can deny oure rend as sylvaneth can and then just spellbomb us like kroak and teclis on steriods. What can we do to win. I think i should have taken the first turn tho. 

Was thinking of bringing the wizard giants for extra dispels and some endless spell but i dont know if that is good or bad.

How do Sylvaneth get all that + to their saves?  They're made of wood!

[Karazla]

Heej,

I am agreeing with you tripchimeras. If he gets the reroll off it makes it that more difficult.

And no problem, i like to stalk this forum but fell in love with sons of behemath and my big conversion project. I play a lot of aos on a weekly bases so i like to share the experience.

Just saw your questions guys about sylvaneth and going to respond with my knowledge.

Sylvaneth bomb list work like this: they cast the spell they get +2 to cast. That stacks with the roll. The warsong rolls 3d3 and choices two to cast with. Aka he threw like a maniac. Every turn he does the same and the plus to casting spell stacks with itself. so first turn is : 3d6 pick 2 plus 2 and next turn plus 4 etc. He rolls per unit in range from the spellportal he cast earlier. He gets this bonus on al his other spells. You cant stop that train. 

And i thought the same. They are twigs for my teeth but way are they so though.
Kurnoth hunter extend command abilitie range.  

The treelord ancient had a abilitie thats a aura that gives +1 save.
The warscroll of the kurnoth hunters says that you can measure the range for command abilities from them, If they dont charge they get a plus 1 save if you rooth them.
mystic shield for a extra plus 1 on something.

And have you heard of all out defense? i heard its pretty great.

 

Hope this helps. I never thought twigs would be the one that takes me down. 

 

Edited July 21, 2021 by Karazla

[Fellman]

Ohhhh Behmat i want a Auntie model so bad
From the WD466

[Scurvydog]

Going to a tournament in a couple of weeks and bringing out the sons. The last 2 times I got the best performing destruction army (although that did not say much in the meta) and going for a hattrick! I have so far been running a Stomper tribe in 2nd edition, with 1 Stomper general, GB, 2x3 mancrushers, however with all the new rules that favor heroes, the new command abilities and added value of staying power, I think I will be moving to a taker tribe.

I think I will go with the setup discussed earlier here, with 1 Kraken Eater general, 1 GB, 1 Stomper and 3 individual mancrushers.

I really liked the 3 man units of mancrushers, as they just hit really hard, but I think the new battleplans and taker tribe really favors them running solo as cappers, freeing up the megas more to do what they need to do.

I will be running an amulet of destiny on the gatebreaker, he is the heavy hitter and will most likely be in the thick of it, so my only real choice is the command trait.

I am torn between 2 options currently, which is the intimidating trait with -1 to hit in combat, or acquisitive in order to grab a glowy lantern. -1 to be hit is always useful, however a lantern provides and unbind/dispell (to better get rid of annoying stuff like soulsnare shackles etc) it also provides the chance to either mystic shield or flaming weapon, which are really great to put on a mega gargant. The likelyhood of casting these successfully drops fast against Tzeentch/Lumineth/Seraphon, but there are also a lot of army builds with little to no magic as well.

So I guess it comes down to a reliable choice or a potentially more powerful and flexible choice, but also risks being completely worthless in some cases. What do you guys think for competitive play?

[Karazla]

i have the same discussion with my self.

I am going to try the wizard build next week. Just because of endless spells blocking oure movements.

 

[Drazhoath]

12 minutes ago, Karazla said:

i have the same discussion with my self.

I am going to try the wizard build next week. Just because of endless spells blocking oure movements.

 

Wrote it earlier but again I made good experience with casting giants. The Mystic Shield was usefull always!

[vinnyt]

12 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

Going to a tournament in a couple of weeks and bringing out the sons. The last 2 times I got the best performing destruction army (although that did not say much in the meta) and going for a hattrick! I have so far been running a Stomper tribe in 2nd edition, with 1 Stomper general, GB, 2x3 mancrushers, however with all the new rules that favor heroes, the new command abilities and added value of staying power, I think I will be moving to a taker tribe.

I think I will go with the setup discussed earlier here, with 1 Kraken Eater general, 1 GB, 1 Stomper and 3 individual mancrushers.

I really liked the 3 man units of mancrushers, as they just hit really hard, but I think the new battleplans and taker tribe really favors them running solo as cappers, freeing up the megas more to do what they need to do.

I will be running an amulet of destiny on the gatebreaker, he is the heavy hitter and will most likely be in the thick of it, so my only real choice is the command trait.

I am torn between 2 options currently, which is the intimidating trait with -1 to hit in combat, or acquisitive in order to grab a glowy lantern. -1 to be hit is always useful, however a lantern provides and unbind/dispell (to better get rid of annoying stuff like soulsnare shackles etc) it also provides the chance to either mystic shield or flaming weapon, which are really great to put on a mega gargant. The likelyhood of casting these successfully drops fast against Tzeentch/Lumineth/Seraphon, but there are also a lot of army builds with little to no magic as well.

So I guess it comes down to a reliable choice or a potentially more powerful and flexible choice, but also risks being completely worthless in some cases. What do you guys think for competitive play?

Yeah, my build runs the -1 to hit but that's just because my local meta isn't big on the spells. I think the lantern is just as good and it really just depends what you expect to see. 

 

How I justify it to myself is that the lantern is situationally useful while I know the -1 to hit will always be useful. Plus the heroic action to dispel a spell exists and is pretty darn good if you're like me and always fail the 4+ to generate another CP. 

 

But yeah, lantern is a super reasonable choice. 

[GunslingerOy]

In a teams game with one player at 1000 points would one mega and three littles be better or two bigs. I feel that the bigs just have so much better staying power, but three littles would be better for board control. Partner would most likely be rocking slaves to darkness

[Lord Krungharr]

23 hours ago, GunslingerOy said:

In a teams game with one player at 1000 points would one mega and three littles be better or two bigs. I feel that the bigs just have so much better staying power, but three littles would be better for board control. Partner would most likely be rocking slaves to darkness

I would go 2 biggies, and have your teammate hire a mercenary: OneEyed Grunnock!

[KingBrodd]

On 7/21/2021 at 7:43 AM, Fellman said:

Ohhhh Behmat i want a Auntie model so bad
From the WD466

We definitely need a Matriarch Gargant model!! Auntie sounds visually incredible. Who are the protagonists in this story? Other Gargants or Ogors?

[Fellman]

3 hours ago, KingBrodd said:

We definitely need a Matriarch Gargant model!! Auntie sounds visually incredible. Who are the protagonists in this story? Other Gargants or Ogors?

A thiving no god moonclan grot
Its a great storry

Edited July 25, 2021 by Fellman

[KingBrodd]

41 minutes ago, Fellman said:

A thiving no god moonclan grot
Its a great storry

I really hope these are collected somewhere, someday!!

[Lord Krungharr]

Who thinks those new dragons will be a problem for we who stomp?  I'm hoping they don't bring along a bunch of little ones with them.

[Lord Krungharr]

@vinnyt How do you think escalating a game to 3k points would affect your Taker Tribe tactics, and what would you add?  Another Gatebreaker and Warstomper?  Kragnos and a mancrusher or 2?  Or Kragnos, a Warstomper, and take out a Mancrusher?  

I'm almost off the waitlist for the 3K in Milwaukee, WI, USA and want to get ready.  

[novakai]

Sons are getting a tome Celestial in the next issue of WD, not sure what it will contain though but they said Core battalions and match play rules

[NinthMusketeer]

 

Quick question; what is the advantage of running a gatebreaker over another kraken eater?

 

On 7/25/2021 at 10:58 AM, Fellman said:

A thiving no god moonclan grot
Its a great storry

The grot dies in the audio drama so it has a happy ending 😆

Edited July 31, 2021 by NinthMusketeer