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Gareth ūüćĄ

AoS 2 - Sons of Behemat Discussion

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Any idea for a army terrain ? A stone table (dolmen style) with some food (Johan, a cow...) on top could be fun.

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I too am excited for this. I love the current gargant, and the forgeworld one would add a nice bit of variety. I think this army will be a bit like Knights armies in 40K; with the points for a couple of the big fellas and perhaps 4 of the smaller ones to fill battle line requirements. The Aleguzzler is about, what, 160 points now, so 4 is 640, with the big boys maybe 400 each (Mawkrusha comparable perhaps) that 1400 odd points straight up. Purely guessing of course but it would make sense to my mind, especially if these are as big as they appear to be.

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That announcement was everything I was hoping for with Sons of Behemat.  It confirmed the army is all about gargants, the army is entirely composed of gargants, the army is for destruction, and the pictures showed that the model aesthetic is going to be an evolution to the current & older Giant models rather than some sort of civilized giants or something.  I am thrilled.

Back in the days of 4th & 5th ed Warhammer the Giant was purchased out of regiment points for the army (when army construction involved point-percentages) and so aside from the requirement to field a hero as a general you could play a whole army of giants.  So if you wanted to you could field an army of 9 giants for 1800 points and then stick a hero like a Goblin shaman as your general.  It was not generally a good army - but it was oh so much fun to play.

I decided early on in Age of Sigmar that I really like how this game handles big stompy monsters and the one type of army that I want, but have not yet found, is an army of all big stompy monsters.  There are a few out there that you can play such as Ogors, Flesh Eaters, and now Seraphon - but none of those all-monster options really appealed to me that much.  The Seraphon all-monster army came close since it is all dinosaurs - but it was just not quite what I would want.  But an army of all Giants (my all time favorite big Warhammer Monster) - sign me up for that!

Everything about this army is now a day-1 purchase for me. 

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7 hours ago, christophe said:

Any idea for a army terrain ? A stone table (dolmen style) with some food (Johan, a cow...) on top could be fun.

King Brodd wields a Stone Column that was once a part of the Behemetian temple that was destroyed by the Beasts of Chaos, more rubble could work as a Terrain piece.

5 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

That announcement was everything I was hoping for with Sons of Behemat.  It confirmed the army is all about gargants, the army is entirely composed of gargants, the army is for destruction, and the pictures showed that the model aesthetic is going to be an evolution to the current & older Giant models rather than some sort of civilized giants or something.  I am thrilled.

Back in the days of 4th & 5th ed Warhammer the Giant was purchased out of regiment points for the army (when army construction involved point-percentages) and so aside from the requirement to field a hero as a general you could play a whole army of giants.  So if you wanted to you could field an army of 9 giants for 1800 points and then stick a hero like a Goblin shaman as your general.  It was not generally a good army - but it was oh so much fun to play.

I decided early on in Age of Sigmar that I really like how this game handles big stompy monsters and the one type of army that I want, but have not yet found, is an army of all big stompy monsters.  There are a few out there that you can play such as Ogors, Flesh Eaters, and now Seraphon - but none of those all-monster options really appealed to me that much.  The Seraphon all-monster army came close since it is all dinosaurs - but it was just not quite what I would want.  But an army of all Giants (my all time favorite big Warhammer Monster) - sign me up for that!

Everything about this army is now a day-1 purchase for me. 

I've wanted to field an all Giant army ever since I first laid eyes on the Marauder Giant over 20 years ago. This has been my dream army ever since then and for it to become a legitimate Faction is a dream come true and I cannot wait for them.

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13 hours ago, KingBrodd said:

I've wanted to field an all Giant army ever since I first laid eyes on the Marauder Giant over 20 years ago. This has been my dream army ever since then and for it to become a legitimate Faction is a dream come true and I cannot wait for them.

 

I have 2 of the Marauder giants (one painted and one still unpainted - lol), and I agree with you.  The instant I saw that model in Fantasy I knew I had to get one and play the army it was for.  Luckily for me it was in the Orc & Goblin army - which was an easy choice since I already had an Ork army in 40k that I had played since Rogue Trader.  I put up a picture of my painted Marauder giant, Olaf the Red, on page 2 or 3 of this thread.  To this day he is still one of my favorite models to put onto the table (even with the current Aleguzzler's less than stellar rules).  A full all-giant army was something that I never really realized I wanted until I began to see the possibility in AoS with some of the armies that can take behemoths as battleline.  Once it was possible for at least one army to do that I immediately felt that GW really should create a full army from Gargants.  It is just such a cool potential theme and I think everyone from the rules writers, miniature designers, artists, and players could all have a whole lot of fun with this army.

I honestly feel utterly spoiled by GW for Age of Sigmar.  I was on the hate-train with a lot of people when they ended Warhammer Fantasy and started Age of Sigmar.  But over time they have turned this into my favorite miniature game of all time.  And GW has given me all of the things that I have REALLY wanted in Warhammer Fantasy since the 90s. 

I started Warhammer Fantasy with undead - back when all undead were combined into a single army book.  The stuff that I really liked in the book was Nagash, Wights, Skeletons, Necromancers, Wraiths, and Ghosts.  I am still waiting for Death Rattle to get expanded, but they brought back Nagash in a cool but not game-breaking way and with an amazing model.  Then they created the all-etherial ghostly army that I wanted to play when I first began with the Night Haunt. 

I have probably around 100 Black Orc models from the Storm of Chaos campaign book days when you could play an all Black Orc army led by Grimgor.  That concept was retired in the next edition and you could no longer run an army of all Black Orcs.  But then in Age of Sigmar GW took that army concept and fully fleshed it out into the Iron Jawz army along with truly fantastic orc miniatures.

Shortly after I started playing Warhammer Fantasy in the early 90s I found myself often playing more Goblins than Orcs in my army - to the point that I started playing all-goblins most of the time and have done so ever since.  I love goblins in all sizes, but there is just something about Night Goblins that I really just love.  GW then went and took what was a generally bad and highly-niche army built from a corner of a much larger book and spun it into a full blown stand-alone army.  I still can't believe that Goblins are now their own separate army from the Orcs and I absolutely love it.  Not only that, but they kept Spiderfang as their own force despite the previous 20 years of slowly removing Forest Goblins from the game.  I have a ton of Trolls that I have collected over the years for my various Orc & Goblin forces and they made that a fully playable army as well.  And then to top it all off they released a full line of the plastic squigs, squig hoppers, and manglers that I have always wanted them to make.  I purchased the limited edition army book simply as a thank-you gesture to GW for making all of this.

They also made the Savage Orcs their own force and gave them a really fun back-story where previously they were basically just a bunch of tribal idiots.  I mean they still pretty much are tribal idiots but at least they are much more interesting tribal idiots.

I have always gravitated towards the weirder armies in the margins of the game, or even the margins of a book.  I had just about every permutation of full 2000pt army you could make from the Orc & Goblin army over the last ~25 years  - with the exception of the all giant force you could make in 4-5th.  I played it a few times by borrowing Giants from a few other local players and proxying some figures, but I did not have enough money to buy that many giants back then.  And after those editions you could no longer field more than a couple.  I really enjoy themed armies in just about any game and I really like it when the miniatures & abilities of an army make it a coherent themed whole.  GW really has leaned into embracing themed armies in AoS.  Not only do they now make very strong central themes for all of the armies, but they often also use interesting army-construction rules to encourage and aid people to have  fun with going all-in on themed and interesting corners of books (like play an all Stegadon army).

Now they are making an army of all giants and I really have no idea how I can be so lucky that GW has pretty much answered all of my wishes for Warhammer.  The only other thing I can think of would be an all insect army with a bunch of big giant monster bugs.

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That was a really pleasant read @Skabnoze
it is always fascinating (and really inspiring) to hear from other hobbyists why they have ended collecting certain armies. Although I was never into orcs nor goblins, I can really relate to being drawn to the weird and the quirky most overlooked - when I got into Dark Eldar they still had their '96 codex that was two editions behind. In Fantasy I finally settled on Bretonnia (after buying way too many army books and single hero models of most factions - if I wouldn't have been slightly too late for affordable Chaos Dwarves, I'd probable gotten into them), which quickly became an outdated army too.  My brother collected Night Goblins and Tomb Kings and we used to have the (really bad) policy of not collecting the same army, but I used to borrow his army books to just read the lore and dream of running a Forest Goblin themed army, or one with big monsters such as trolls and giants. Well, now I can! I haven't pulled the trigger yet as I've wanted to save for Sons of Behemat but either troggoth or Spiderfang-themed Gloomspite is my second choice if SoB wouldn't excite me.

Unless GW brings Chaos Dwarves into a mainline army, FW prices are too steep and I don't want to proxy them like I ended up doing in Fantasy. Using Bretonnian models, hahah!

 

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Well we currently have 4 Confirmed Gargant types; Kraken Eater, Warstomper, Gate Breaker and the Aleguzzler.

At the end of the Sons of Behemat teaser we saw what could potentially be a 4th new Gargant type. 

I believe this could be a dual kit much like the Dankhold Troggoth/Troggboss. I think that this kit will have the option of being built as King Brodd, a leader or as another larger Gargant. This larger Gargant could even be a replacement for the Forgeworld Bonegrinder Gargant.

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On 3/18/2020 at 5:20 AM, Kadeton said:

Maybe! To be honest, I'd really hope the Gargants aren't super specialised - ideally they'll (all) be able to at least participate in each of the active phases of the turn, i.e. all having some sort of command ability, spell, or prayer, as well as a ranged attack and a melee attack. Having some be more focused on range or melee would obviously be fine.

Wishlist: I want to see an action hero Gargant firing a Great Cannon in each hand. I want a hunter/falconer-type with a siege bow and a massive bird of prey (a Roc?) that they set on people. I want a brawler that's wielding a carriage in one hand and a team of screaming horses in the other. I want a giant priest, hunched over, carrying an entire uprooted church and steeple on his back and swinging a huge censer.

Man, there are so many cool things that could be done with Gargants. I expect to be a little disappointed in whatever actually gets released, because the limits of practicality are always a downer compared to imagination.

you sir, are a prophet!!!

check this out:

image.png.9c299e778dd128ea76e852ca94010cec.png

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2 hours ago, KingBrodd said:

Well we currently have 4 Confirmed Gargant types; Kraken Eater, Warstomper, Gate Breaker and the Aleguzzler.

At the end of the Sons of Behemat teaser we saw what could potentially be a 4th new Gargant type. 

I believe this could be a dual kit much like the Dankhold Troggoth/Troggboss. I think that this kit will have the option of being built as King Brodd, a leader or as another larger Gargant. This larger Gargant could even be a replacement for the Forgeworld Bonegrinder Gargant.

I think most kits will be more than dual-kits.  I expect that we will probably see roughly 3-5 new box kits and most of those will probably build at least 3 distinct unit types.  I don't think GW is going to repeat the issue they have with the Fyreslayers where the army does not have enough variety in the model silhouettes and so the whole thing blends together visually on the table.  I always found that to be a big shame as individually the Fyreslayer models all look terrific - but once you get a bunch on the table it is quite difficult to really tell what is what aside from adding visual distinction using paint-schemes.  Even their Magmadroth models do not have enough pose variety and blend together (even though the kit has 2 different heads).  Night Haunt also has a similar issue and really could have benefitted from alternating the size of the models in units a bit.

From what I have seen GW seems to pay more attention to the visual variety and silhouettes of the units in armies now.  I think they are well aware of the issue with the armies that lack visual variety and I expect they will make a concerted effort not to repeat that with this army.  This army stands to be quite unique, and potentially very impressive, visually on the table as it will be comprised of a smaller number of big huge goons stomping about the table.  One of the simplest ways to solve that would be to vary the size of the giants, which a lot of people are currently asking for, and I think we will see probably 3 basic sizes.    I think we will see the core base troops as the smallest and the same size as the current Aleguzzler (including that kit if they intend to keep it).  Those guys come on 90mm ovals - although I would not be surprised to see them rebased onto roughly a 60mm circle.  I also think these will be able to form units.  From there I expect that we will see the next size as about an 1-1.5 inches taller and standing on an 80mm base.  This will probably be elite models and also be roughly the size for most of the hero choices.  And the final size I expect will be very big and possibly the same size or larger than the Bonegrinder.  This will most likely be double as a huge monster and probably also include a hero version in addition to some sort of special named character leader.  I expect this kit will be on at least a 120mm oval base or possibly a 160mm if it is really big.

If all of the gargant models in this army end up the same size (aside from including the Forgeworld Bonegrinder) then I feel that the army will begin to blend together.  Varying the size is such an easy and obvious thing to do that I am sure GW has already done so.

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1 hour ago, Skabnoze said:

I think most kits will be more than dual-kits.  I expect that we will probably see roughly 3-5 new box kits and most of those will probably build at least 3 distinct unit types.  I don't think GW is going to repeat the issue they have with the Fyreslayers where the army does not have enough variety in the model silhouettes and so the whole thing blends together visually on the table.  I always found that to be a big shame as individually the Fyreslayer models all look terrific - but once you get a bunch on the table it is quite difficult to really tell what is what aside from adding visual distinction using paint-schemes.  Even their Magmadroth models do not have enough pose variety and blend together (even though the kit has 2 different heads).  Night Haunt also has a similar issue and really could have benefitted from alternating the size of the models in units a bit.

From what I have seen GW seems to pay more attention to the visual variety and silhouettes of the units in armies now.  I think they are well aware of the issue with the armies that lack visual variety and I expect they will make a concerted effort not to repeat that with this army.  This army stands to be quite unique, and potentially very impressive, visually on the table as it will be comprised of a smaller number of big huge goons stomping about the table.  One of the simplest ways to solve that would be to vary the size of the giants, which a lot of people are currently asking for, and I think we will see probably 3 basic sizes.    I think we will see the core base troops as the smallest and the same size as the current Aleguzzler (including that kit if they intend to keep it).  Those guys come on 90mm ovals - although I would not be surprised to see them rebased onto roughly a 60mm circle.  I also think these will be able to form units.  From there I expect that we will see the next size as about an 1-1.5 inches taller and standing on an 80mm base.  This will probably be elite models and also be roughly the size for most of the hero choices.  And the final size I expect will be very big and possibly the same size or larger than the Bonegrinder.  This will most likely be double as a huge monster and probably also include a hero version in addition to some sort of special named character leader.  I expect this kit will be on at least a 120mm oval base or possibly a 160mm if it is really big.

If all of the gargant models in this army end up the same size (aside from including the Forgeworld Bonegrinder) then I feel that the army will begin to blend together.  Varying the size is such an easy and obvious thing to do that I am sure GW has already done so.

I agree on the posting of the Gargants. I absolutely love the Aleguzzler kit but it is very monopose so having an army with very few models, they would each need to be quite unique.

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Posted (edited)

So, after looking at what the teaser video showed I think we can start drawing some ideas about the types of themes that GW is exploring with this army.  If you look back across Age of Sigmar since it began there is a huge theme that most stuff is not quite totally new and is often based on some concepts from older editions of Warhammer that they decide to run with when designing a new force.  Sometimes the inspiration is blatantly obvious such as how the Fyreslayers are the Old World Dwarf Slayers turned into a complete dwarf faction and then tweaked to fit into the new setting.  Ironjawz are a further exploration of the old concept of Black Orcs as bigger & meaner orcs.  And then sometimes the influences are more subtle like Idoneth having ties to the old elf god Mathlan or leaning into the old Dark Elf medusa & harpies and expanding those into the Daughters of Khaine along with more greek influences such as the Naga (melusai).

I think we can glean more by looking at what Giants have historically been in Warhammer and what the new pictures & model names tell us.  Currently the Aleguzzler giant has a number of different attacks on his profile and he can famously sometimes fail a charge and fall down.  The various attacks and abilities that the Aleguzzler currently has are all variations on his old attacks or abilities.  Throughout 4th-8th editions of Warhammer Fantasy the Giant had 2 things that set him apart from most other models in the game. 

First, he has always had the ability to fall over and smash things.  Generally this would happen if he died or sometimes it could happen from other situations such as if he trips while trying to flee or jump up & down on a unit.  This has been on every version of the giant, including the Aleguzzler (who arguably has the most tactically restricting fall-down rule) and I honestly see this as something they are going to keep - although hopefully they rework the current Aleguzzler fall-down rule and make it something more fun to all players.  I always found the fall-down rules to be characterful and fun on the whole in Warhammer Fantasy, but I will agree with most that I don't care for the version of fall-down that the Ale Guzzler currently has.  There are ways to make the rule interesting but not totally awful.

Second, the Giant never had normal attacks like most models in the game.  Instead the Giant had a selection of different attacks and he would choose one of those attacks to make for a given combat phase.  In 4th/5th you got to choose what attack he made.  In subsequent editions those attacks were put into two randomized charts that you rolled on depending on the size of the target.  Those attacks were always a variation of:  yell and bawl, thump single target with club, swing club at multiple targets, stomp a single model, jump up & down on a unit, headbutt (which stunned big enemies along with inflicting damage), or pick up a single small model and do something with it.  When the giant would pick people up it generally involved another chart to see what he did and the results were usually to smash or eat the model and kill it, stuff it into his bag or down his pants (effectively killed it - but sometimes you could kill the giant and free them), or throw the model either into the unit he was fighting or across the table at a different unit.

If we look at what they teased in the video then it stands out to me that each of the type of giants appears to be themed around the various attack types of the old world giant.  There is the Kraken Eater - which seems based on the giants old ability to eat enemies (and this is generally what giants do in folklore anyways).  Then there is the Warstomper that seems based on the old stomp & jump up & down abilities.  And then they showed the Gate Crasher which seems to lean into the swing & thump with club attacks.  I would not be surprised to see GW play with other giant attacks either as standard shared abilities (headbutt could be a shared attack similar to Ogor & Seraphon bite attacks), or for more distinct unit types such as Giants that can throw enemy units at each other, or even possibly as hero abilities.

I suspect we will see other stuff brought back such as Yell and Bawl.  That could become a type of common ranged attack (think of the Mawkrusha), a command ability, or some type of generic ability.  The Giant was never the best monster in Warhammer - but he was such a characterful and interesting model.  He was also generally cheap enough to bring along for fun and he would either do terrible or fantastic - but in my experience he was usually the most memorable model on the table.  His abilities and attacks always did a good job of making him feel like a huge stumbling oaf with a giant club just smashing and knocking stuff all over the place.  I really feel that they will lean more into this and we will probably see weird stuff like giants smashing terrain, kicking objectives or models out of their way, and just acting like how you would expect belligerent 50-foot tall goons would be.

I really hope they add some interesting mechanics into this army.  For instance, imagine a unit is formed up to protect an objective that is a treasure chest with an important item of power and then some foul loud-mouthed giant charges into that unit and simply boots the treasure chest 50-feet into the distance.   Not only is that a hilarious mental image, but the gameplay implications of something like that could be really interesting and unique.  The Fomoroid Crusher can already damage units near terrain by smashing the terrain and that is another ability that seems like it would fit giants quite well.  I can imagine them collapsing ruins onto units, knocking trees in the forest onto people, or just knocking boulders down a hill.  I just hope that this army is as interesting and fun regarding the rules as the models are going to be.

Edited by Skabnoze
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I know some people dislike random tables but I for one love the old giant one. 

If they do implement the old giant tactics then they will need to implement it very well in order to avoid becoming op/up 

I’d be super happy with random tables, with each giant getting bonuses or negatives based on their type (perhaps making them more likely to pick certain options, or make some options impossible to access.) command abilities could be tied to this, and even warlord traits and artifacts.

this could make an army that is either entirely random, or when controlled well can succeed at things other armies would have an impossible time recreating. This could have a lot of tactical depth if things like moving objectives are added, and actions like yell and bawl could become movement penalties for nearby enemies, or even objective secured or a bonus of some kind.

We could also have the table give bonuses to certain giants when options are picked. Perhaps aleguzzlers are extremely loud during their drunken antics, and as such when yelling and bawling count as more models for objective purposes (perfect for a battling pick) kraken eaters could more easily eat larger models, thus becoming assassins of sorts, gate crashers could destroy terrain when certain options are selected, and the warstomper could have an aura when jumping up and down that lowers movement etc.

randomness with options for control give the player the best of both worlds, allowing casual players to just sit back and let the antics begin, while competitive minded players can more carefully plan by giving up resources (command points, traits, unit choice, etc)

i for one love the idea of armies whose gimmick is central to them and controls their playstyle to the point where no army plays like them. This is what makes me like Sylvaneth (but those trees are too expensive for me to play the army myself, I still love to watch them play online and in stores) 

But I also like armies who all look the same (I play savage orruks with only infantry, and my chaos army is just a wall of steel with buff pieces. I love the rank and file unless monsters are involved for some reason) so I understand that my views (like loving random tables) aren’t shared by most lol

 

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Posted (edited)

Now I find myself wondering...

...if we get a really big giant kit, might it be tall and lanky...more like an Aeldari Wraithknight than the big but quite stocky Imperial Knight?

 

 

p4ZBg3V.jpg

Edited by Souleater
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23 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

Now they are making an army of all giants and I really have no idea how I can be so lucky that GW has pretty much answered all of my wishes for Warhammer.  

Mate I'm absolutely rapt for you.  I know from chatting on this forum over the last year or two how much Giants mean to you.

I'm super excited too; but I know they really are your "thing".  

I honestly can't believe it's happening.  Hats off to them hey.

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29 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

Mate I'm absolutely rapt for you.  I know from chatting on this forum over the last year or two how much Giants mean to you.

I'm super excited too; but I know they really are your "thing".  

I honestly can't believe it's happening.  Hats off to them hey.

I'm so happy to have found this community that is so helpful and empowering of our dreams for this hobby. I too have wanted Giants for over 20 years and seeing that I'm not alone is so welcoming. I'm so happy for us all.

37 minutes ago, Souleater said:

Now I find myself wondering...

...if we get a really big giant kit, might it be tall and lanky...more like an Aeldari Wraithknight than the big but quite stocky Imperial Knight?

 

 

p4ZBg3V.jpg

I would absolutely love if they were that size, or at least the King Brodd/Leader model.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Souleater said:

Now I find myself wondering...

...if we get a really big giant kit, might it be tall and lanky...more like an Aeldari Wraithknight than the big but quite stocky Imperial Knight?

I suspect this is going to be the case.  The older Marauder Giant, and the smaller metal citadel giant were fairly human proportions and not very lanky - but the later giant models (Albion, current plastic giant, and both versions of the Forgeworld Bonegrinder) were all very lanky in design.  Given the images from the video it looks like GW is going to stick with lanky giants.  So if they make a really big giant kit I expect that it would be shaped more like the Wraithknight than the Imperial Knight kits.

Edited by Skabnoze
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I'm hoping that today's Rumour Engine will be Sons related.

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I'm very sad because the Fimirs will not be in this army... the old lore said that the weapon beared by Brodd was a pillar that he picked up from a temple builded by cyclopean creatures... I think could be cool to see well armoured giants that they obtain their weapons by Fimir crafters, like they were huge gladiators of Rome.

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11 minutes ago, Nezzhil said:

cyclopean creatures

That were probably Fomoroids. They were architects during Age of Myth, not Fimirs.

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Just now, michu said:

That were probably Fomoroids. They were architects during Age of Myth, not Fimirs.

The Fomoroids are the chaotic version of Fimirs, like Ogoroids are the chaotic version of Ogors.

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3 minutes ago, Nezzhil said:

The Fomoroids are the chaotic version of Fimirs, like Ogoroids are the chaotic version of Ogors.

Not quite. Fomoroids weren't chaos-affilated until Archaon enslaved them. They're not mutated.

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8 minutes ago, KingBrodd said:

_j1K3-Olb_U1~4Ox.jpg

New Rumour Engine is definitely Sons related.

This may be something to do with King Brodd, isn't his backstory about wanting to kill the beastmen that defiled his father's temple...?

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2 hours ago, Adamcbutton said:

This may be something to do with King Brodd, isn't his backstory about wanting to kill the beastmen that defiled his father's temple...?

The Beastmen destroyed the Behemetian Temple, and Brodd uses a broken column of the temple as a weapon.

This definitely looks like it could be stone.

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