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Gareth 🍄

AoS 2 - Sons of Behemat Discussion

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28 minutes ago, Scythian said:

The answer is a double charge with a mega and 3 mancrushers. The impact hits alone will probably kill the stinkers and then you pile in for the Smackdown, lol. 

Proper screen placement in this scenario would also be to have the sallies 6" behind the skinks, where a pile in move would still prevent you from hitting them.

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 So my order if my Sons came in and they sent me the wrong items. I ordered 2 Mega Gargants and 6 Mancrushers. Instead I got 3 mega Gargants and 4 Mancrushers. So uh...army comp change I guess?

92F9F8C1-0E23-460F-8E26-986B8F72FEBA.jpeg

Edited by Emperor of Zhong
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3 hours ago, Scythian said:

I think the detractors of this army are truly misunderstanding what this army is and what it can and will be. Like many other misunderstood armies, people are expecting this army to be a game changer, it is not. Much like Disciples of Tzeentch, people automatically thought that it was going to be a magic heavy army when in fact, the meta was shooting. Sons of Behemat create the same fool's gold effect. A player might be tempted to play the “camp on the objectives” game with the giant’s high wounds but this is a grave mistake. This is an army that should always be charging. The meta is the charge phase. Charging and attacking. They are not designed to be a “stand on and camp” army. Think logically about it. The Mega’s are just a 35 man unit with 4+ armor and limited attacks when you actually erase the model's stature and truly read the warscroll. Hardly what I would call a game changer, but rather just a larger than average horde unit by only 5 wounds. As for the individual Mega Gargant types, just understand that while the Krakeneater and Gatebreaker have tactical options, do not solely rely on them to be the game changer abilities you may think they are. Now, get out there and remember your ABC’s..........Always Be Charging!

Agree the ABC is important. I do think though your downplaying megas slightly equating them to a 35 wound unit. A stomper takes 34 wounds it can still get 10 attacks with its club and have full damage output. A breaker with +2 attacks trait takes 34 wounds it’s still swinging 7 flail attacks. Also they obviously keep their impact hits till death. They have very little loss of damage output all the way to death so if your opponent can’t one shot them it spells trouble and 35 wounds on 4+ possibly with buffs isn’t super easy to one shot (obviously yes there are a number of insane damage output units that can but not universally). 

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8 minutes ago, Emperor of Zhong said:

 So my order if my Sons came in and they sent me the wrong items. I ordered 2 Mega Gargants and 6 Mancrushers. Instead I got 3 mega Gargants and 4 Mancrushers. So uh...army comp change I guess?

92F9F8C1-0E23-460F-8E26-986B8F72FEBA.jpeg

Providing they charged for your initial order, you've done pretty well.  Can you fit them all into 2000 points?

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3 minutes ago, Aelfric said:

Providing they charged for your initial order, you've done pretty well.  Can you fit them all into 2000 points?

I was charged for the initial order. I can yes, I had originally gone for 2-3-1-1-1  now I have the models for a 3-3

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1 minute ago, Emperor of Zhong said:

I was charged for the initial order. I can yes, I had originally gone for 2-3-1-1-1  now I have the models for a 3-3

Just contact them and explain your short a box of Mancrushers and they will send you a new one. Up to you whether you tell them and return the extra Mega. I’ve spoken to their support before (When I received stuff I didn’t order) and they care more about making sure people get what they should have rather than getting back stuff sent by accident. 
 

Especially as I do think in general the 2 mega 3x1 1x3 is the best setup (If you don’t know mission) if nothing else gives some objectives taggers with the solo crushers and 50 % hero 50 % battleline so balanced for missions that require one or the other. 

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1 minute ago, Reuben Parker said:

Just contact them and explain your short a box of Mancrushers and they will send you a new one. Up to you whether you tell them and return the extra Mega. I’ve spoken to their support before (When I received stuff I didn’t order) and they care more about making sure people get what they should have rather than getting back stuff sent by accident. 
 

Especially as I do think in general the 2 mega 3x1 1x3 is the best setup (If you don’t know mission) if nothing else gives some objectives taggers with the solo crushers and 50 % hero 50 % battleline so balanced for missions that require one or the other. 

Sadly it wasn’t from Gamesworkshop. I know they have amazing customer support and have always been great to me in the past. I ordered from Frontline Gaming for the discounts and such. So I’m not sure. 

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24 minutes ago, Emperor of Zhong said:

 So my order if my Sons came in and they sent me the wrong items. I ordered 2 Mega Gargants and 6 Mancrushers. Instead I got 3 mega Gargants and 4 Mancrushers. So uh...army comp change I guess?

92F9F8C1-0E23-460F-8E26-986B8F72FEBA.jpeg

Bloody nice one mate!! I'm currently slowly reading through the BT soaking up all the Lore, I havent even started to assemble my Mega yet as I cant pick which one I love the most!! 

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The difference between mancrushers and megas are about £45 I think, so that's a win.

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21 minutes ago, Reuben Parker said:

Agree the ABC is important. I do think though your downplaying megas slightly equating them to a 35 wound unit. A stomper takes 34 wounds it can still get 10 attacks with its club and have full damage output. A breaker with +2 attacks trait takes 34 wounds it’s still swinging 7 flail attacks. Also they obviously keep their impact hits till death. They have very little loss of damage output all the way to death so if your opponent can’t one shot them it spells trouble and 35 wounds on 4+ possibly with buffs isn’t super easy to one shot (obviously yes there are a number of insane damage output units that can but not universally). 

35 wounds in 1 unit isn't actually a good thing for the most part.

In an ideal game scenario its better to use MSU so your opponent is forced to split fire and possibly overkill units (wasted damage). If you put 35 wounds in a single spot it makes target priority much easier.

This is the reason the game provides benefits for having big units like horde discounts, turn priority, combat activations,unit size bonuses, and single target buffs.

Sons of Behemat(and monsters generally) don't really get the benefits of these things, while still suffering the drawbacks of putting all your points into one unit.

 

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5 hours ago, Scythian said:

I think the detractors of this army are truly misunderstanding what this army is and what it can and will be. Like many other misunderstood armies, people are expecting this army to be a game changer, it is not. Much like Disciples of Tzeentch, people automatically thought that it was going to be a magic heavy army when in fact, the meta was shooting. Sons of Behemat create the same fool's gold effect. A player might be tempted to play the “camp on the objectives” game with the giant’s high wounds but this is a grave mistake. This is an army that should always be charging. The meta is the charge phase. Charging and attacking. They are not designed to be a “stand on and camp” army. Think logically about it. The Mega’s are just a 35 man unit with 4+ armor and limited attacks when you actually erase the model's stature and truly read the warscroll. Hardly what I would call a game changer, but rather just a larger than average horde unit by only 5 wounds. As for the individual Mega Gargant types, just understand that while the Krakeneater and Gatebreaker have tactical options, do not solely rely on them to be the game changer abilities you may think they are. Now, get out there and remember your ABC’s..........Always Be Charging!

Megas are not “just a 35 man unit”. The fact you can kiss an objective and instantly steal it with a count of 20 (or 30) is massive. I have played 3 games during the weekend and the ability to retreat over models with a 13-18” retreat (played 2x gatebreaker + 2x3 crushers) and land just inside a tiny bit of an objective is crazy. 

All in all Gargants play very similar to Stonehorns, just with a couple more tricks.

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4 hours ago, Nezzhil said:

I won my first game versus Ossiarch. I changed my mind, if you play trying to score and avoid been damage you are goning to win.

The battleplan was Focal Points, a battleplane very favourable to us.

I played Breaker Tribe with the +1 to hit Hero and Wizard. Idiots with flags is a trap, your opponent is going to remove the commands first so your skill is useless. It is better to chunk small heroes.

Sure but effectively denying your opponent his command squad is often quite big. Multiple armies get quite good rules like Ardboyz +2 Bravery, Pink Horror banner etc etc. The fact you make your opponent remove these is a win on its own imo. I do like the Shiny ‘Uns too since many units have 4+ save. I have thought about doing the +1 hit to Wizards/heroes to improve the shooting. It basically cancels out Look-out Sir. It might be worth losing out on some melee grinding power in favor of being able to snipe low wound heroes. 

I threw 2 rocks (2 breakers) at a Stardrake earlier today. He failed with -3 rend and took 8 damage to the face!

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So in regards to the recent facehammer video, in the comments section they introduced a new element to rules debate, when asked about endless spells not having a wounds characteristic to be able to step over them

We previously had RAW and RAI, and now we have IMO 😂

Screenshot_20201018_220452.jpg

Screenshot_20201018_220504.jpg

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35 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

So in regards to the recent facehammer video, in the comments section they introduced a new element to rules debate, when asked about endless spells not having a wounds characteristic to be able to step over them

We previously had RAW and RAI, and now we have IMO 😂

Screenshot_20201018_220452.jpg

Screenshot_20201018_220504.jpg

My first thought was you could. However after you highlighted the “characteristic” part of the rule A couple of days back RAW clearly they can’t. My hope is RAI they can and FAQ will confirm that. However until an FAQ comes out I don’t believe giants should be walking over endless spells. 

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MEGA Battle Report is HERE!! Giants vs Beastclaw!! Who is the scariest predator in the Mortal Realms?Enjoy! 

If you want to support the channel - subscribe, hit like, leave a comment - everything helps

 

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Hmmm, so if you would run a 1000 pts list, would it better to go Warstomper for better horde killing power or Kraken-eater for better board control, i was thinking Kraken-eater would perhaps be the better since with so few models, moving objectives closer to each other could really help you score objectives when you have extremely few models.

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9 hours ago, Kasper said:

Megas are not “just a 35 man unit”. The fact you can kiss an objective and instantly steal it with a count of 20 (or 30) is massive. I have played 3 games during the weekend and the ability to retreat over models with a 13-18” retreat (played 2x gatebreaker + 2x3 crushers) and land just inside a tiny bit of an objective is crazy. 

All in all Gargants play very similar to Stonehorns, just with a couple more tricks.

 

9 hours ago, Kasper said:

Megas are not “just a 35 man unit”. The fact you can kiss an objective and instantly steal it with a count of 20 (or 30) is massive. I have played 3 games during the weekend and the ability to retreat over models with a 13-18” retreat (played 2x gatebreaker + 2x3 crushers) and land just inside a tiny bit of an objective is crazy. 

All in all Gargants play very similar to Stonehorns, just with a couple more tricks.

Very true about holding objectives but people will soon learn how to block them out to prevent that. Only time will tell what our opponents will do to complicate matters for us. 

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For Warstomper Stomps, you’re going to see the 2 mega and 2 units of 3 Mancrushers a lot on the table. It’s the most well-rounded Warstomper build you can make. 

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1 hour ago, Scythian said:

For Warstomper Stomps, you’re going to see the 2 mega and 2 units of 3 Mancrushers a lot on the table. It’s the most well-rounded Warstomper build you can make. 

Why will you add a second Warstomper? Only the general have access to the tribe traits. I think it's better if you go full Mancrushers or you add other different to improve your deficiencies versus elite units.

Edited by Nezzhil

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4 hours ago, Nezzhil said:

Why will you add a second Warstomper? Only the general have access to the tribe traits. I think it's better if you go full Mancrushers or you add other different to improve your deficiencies versus elite units.

I think I'd go 1 Warstomper general, 1 Kraken Eater, 3 man crusher unit and then possibly units of 2 and 1 mancrushers. The solo mancrusher will be the one to grab those objectives sitting outside the main action, having this piece seems important in many scenarios, as dedicating a mega or even multiple mancrushers will be too many points "wasted" on an outlaying objective or blocking a backline from ambushing armies etc. 

The Megas really lose a lot of value without traits and artifacts and then they do not even get the mercenary gargant benefit rule, so the most versatile "vanilla" gargant seems to be the kraken eater so you can kick an objective around, stuff models into a bag and throw some debris.

I think the army will still struggle a lot against the top meta armies, but of course all but top meta armies suffer there, just like Ironjawz smash lesser combat lists but fall over to Tzeentch shooting and screening or KOs etc. I don't think the sons can really deal with a Fyreslayer castle either, 20 hearthguards could quite easily take out a mega in a round of combat, with hardly enough threat of taking damage in the process. 

I wonder if we will be seeing any sons show up at tournaments and if they might bring a ghoul king mercenary with them. I don't really like the theme of mixing in an arch regent, but it is the only way to add both chaff and screening as well as a cheaper hero+wizard. I could see that work in a stomper tribe with a single warstomper, mancrushers and then an arch regent with ghoul support. I saw some talk about using the hafling Blood Bowl team to convert this in a silly way. It could be a fun project if you could make a gargant worshipping cult with a shaman of some sort as count as arch regent and ghouls.

 

Did anyone else notice how the Warstomper mercenary special rule also provides reroll 1s to hit for jump up and down? A bit strange considering it already gets this for anything but monsters, so I guess that is all this rule adds in addition, although the -1 to hit for all enemies within 6" after a jump attack is pretty good by itself and the best of the mercenaries I think.

Edited by Scurvydog
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1 hour ago, Scurvydog said:

I think I'd go 1 Warstomper general, 1 Kraken Eater, 3 man crusher unit and then possibly units of 2 and 1 mancrushers. The solo mancrusher will be the one to grab those objectives sitting outside the main action, having this piece seems important in many scenarios, as dedicating a mega or even multiple mancrushers will be too many points "wasted" on an outlaying objective or blocking a backline from ambushing armies etc. 

The Megas really lose a lot of value without traits and artifacts and then they do not even get the mercenary gargant benefit rule, so the most versatile "vanilla" gargant seems to be the kraken eater so you can kick an objective around, stuff models into a bag and throw some debris.

I think the army will still struggle a lot against the top meta armies, but of course all but top meta armies suffer there, just like Ironjawz smash lesser combat lists but fall over to Tzeentch shooting and screening or KOs etc. I don't think the sons can really deal with a Fyreslayer castle either, 20 hearthguards could quite easily take out a mega in a round of combat, with hardly enough threat of taking damage in the process. 

I wonder if we will be seeing any sons show up at tournaments and if they might bring a ghoul king mercenary with them. I don't really like the theme of mixing in an arch regent, but it is the only way to add both chaff and screening as well as a cheaper hero+wizard. I could see that work in a stomper tribe with a single warstomper, mancrushers and then an arch regent with ghoul support. I saw some talk about using the hafling Blood Bowl team to convert this in a silly way. It could be a fun project if you could make a gargant worshipping cult with a shaman of some sort as count as arch regent and ghouls.

 

Did anyone else notice how the Warstomper mercenary special rule also provides reroll 1s to hit for jump up and down? A bit strange considering it already gets this for anything but monsters, so I guess that is all this rule adds in addition, although the -1 to hit for all enemies within 6" after a jump attack is pretty good by itself and the best of the mercenaries I think.

I feel like a Kraken Eater is too good to pass up on. I have only played (3 games this weekend) as Takers with 2x GB + 2x3 MC and had multiple situations where kicking the objective would have been great. I won all 3 but none of them were against hyper competitive lists (40 Blightkings + Glotkin, SCE with Gotrek + Prime + Stardrake and mirror against Takers with 2 KE + 1 GB). I think Im gonna focus on Takers in the future. 

Against armies that cant deepstrike, you can kick it backwards and likely buy you another turn getting points while you move the KE forward and engage stuff, assuming your kick went far enough for the opponent to not just retreat onto it in their turn, or maybe you have placed your KE in such a manner that the opponent cant really retreat far enough since he has to go around your huge base and still be outside of 3". You are still holding the objective on a majority of battleplans, even if you kicked it into a far corner while you sprint towards the middle. I wonder if they are gonna FAQ stuff like Battle of the Pass. You can also punt the objectives closer together so your force is standing ontop of each other etc. Quite a few options here. Even in Stompers I think going for 9 MC is a trap and that you would want WS + KE + 6 MC.

I think alot of people in general are really focused on damage output when it comes to playing AoS. Almost any faction thread is largely about what unit deals the most damage etc. which is just not how you generally win, hence why I would prefer a KE in Stompers over 3 MC. 3 MC is gonna deal way more damage, but they also die/bracket way, way faster. Tabling your opponent by turn 2 is obviously a valid strat, but it is few armies that can do this.

I do worry about stuff like IJ, Fyreslayers, Tzeentch and maybe retreating skinks in Fangs of Sotek. Many of the current top armies have a disgustingly high damage output, but some of them are also MW sprinkling which we kind of ignore, where as it eats support heroes in other armies. There are generally very few armies that have a great time against anything they face (if you talk about "hyper" competitive lists) so I dont think this is anything new or a major drawback for SoB. Im gonna try to get some games in vs my friend with both IJ, OBR and FoS Seraphon soon!

Edited by Kasper

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Am I wrong i assuming the named  mercenary mega-gargants aren't that great in a SoB army? I feel like their extra rules are quite a hefty trade-off compared to the allegiance rule that lets them count as 20 models.

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