Sons of Behemat Discussion 👣

[Skabnoze]

5 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

Mate I'm absolutely rapt for you.  I know from chatting on this forum over the last year or two how much Giants mean to you.

I'm super excited too; but I know they really are your "thing".  

I honestly can't believe it's happening.  Hats off to them hey.

I have collected and played just about every subfaction within Orcs & Goblins since 4th edition and so when designed the Destruction faction as mostly the split-up parts of the old Orc & Goblin book along with the Ogors I ended up playing almost the whole of Destruction.  I have always enjoyed Giants and overall they really are my favorite monster in the game - but if I were to say that I have a particular "thing" I would say it is Night Goblins and mainly Squigs.  Giants may be my favorite monster overall, but squigs (of all shapes and sizes) are my favorite Warhammer creature or "thing".  I dunno what it is about them - but I love the murderous little bouncing balls of teeth.

That is why I feel so fortunate for what GW have been doing.  I approve of all of the things they have done with Orcs - especially now with the fantastic Orruk Warclans book.  Moonclan, my personal favorite niche army collection (of any miniature game ever), was turned into a full army of it's own with the Gloomspite book.  On top of what they did with Night Goblins they then stuffed Forest Goblins and a full Troll army into the same book.  I love Forest Goblins almost as much as Night Goblins and for many years I had been lamenting how they had been slowly removing Forest Goblins from the game (at one point only the basic Spider Riders were still in the army) - so I was overjoyed that they expanded SpiderFang a bit and kept it as a playable whole in Gloomspite.  

I never really viewed Giants as my "thing", but I will fully admit that over the last ~25 years I will generally stick a giant into just about any goblin army that I can - because I really like the model and the concept of the monster.  But I can see how you might get that idea since I have generally been one of the only giant enthusiasts willing to come to the defense of the Aleguzzler whenever discussion about him pops up on the forums.

I never even really considered the concept of an all Giant army (other than just for laughs as a silly army in 4th/5th edition) until Age of Sigmar started playing with the idea of all-behemoth armies and with Giants initially having their own sub-allegiance.  Then it started to feel like an army of all Giants would fit Age of Sigmar very well and be pretty unique compared to other games.

And I have picked up a small amount of Ogors with the intent to make a small hobby project for an army of Ogor Pirates.  So at this point I have every army in destruction so I guess I would just say that I am an enthusiast of all things destruction. 

[Skabnoze]

3 hours ago, KingBrodd said:

New Rumour Engine is definitely Sons related.

I'm not quite sure.  You can see the paint-strokes on that and so I don't think the torso is any larger than a standard human.  But it could be a torso hanging from a gargant's belt as a snack for later.  Or this might not be a torso and could be a bag or cloth that has those bones tied to it.  Hard to tell in this image.  

Edited April 7, 2020 by Skabnoze

[KingBrodd]

1 hour ago, Skabnoze said:

I'm not quite sure.  You can see the paint-strokes on that and so I don't think the torso is any larger than a standard human.  But it could be a torso hanging from a gargant's belt as a snack for later.  Or this might not be a torso and could be a bag or cloth that has those bones tied to it.  Hard to tell in this image.  

I think because for the first time to my knowledge of a Rumour Engine, it almost directly references the Sons. I also dont believe that it's a torso at all, I think its Stone.

[Skabnoze]

14 minutes ago, KingBrodd said:

I think because for the first time to my knowledge of a Rumour Engine, it almost directly references the Sons. I also dont believe that it's a torso at all, I think its Stone.

Fair enough, I could see it being stone.  I expect the shape is misleading because I think they cropped the photo somewhat.

As for the article itself, I don't quite see where it directly references anything.  Are you referring to this comment:  

Quote

Combined with all the announcements and reveals that have come out lately, you might have some ideas about what this might be… 

?

[TheadTheOgorSlayer]

6 hours ago, KingBrodd said:

New Rumour Engine is definitely Sons related.

Easy one, it’s the top of a giants helmet 

[KingBrodd]

2 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

Fair enough, I could see it being stone.  I expect the shape is misleading because I think they cropped the photo somewhat.

As for the article itself, I don't quite see where it directly references anything.  Are you referring to this comment:  

?

Yes that comment.

[PlasticCraic]

6 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

I never really viewed Giants as my "thing", but I will fully admit that over the last ~25 years I will generally stick a giant into just about any goblin army that I can - because I really like the model and the concept of the monster.  But I can see how you might get that idea since I have generally been one of the only giant enthusiasts willing to come to the defense of the Aleguzzler whenever discussion about him pops up on the forums.

Yep, there's been a few times when you've talked Gargants on here, and also given the Snotlings like me an education on their WHFB rules.  I personally had the 4th ed starter box and kind of collected the models without playing (I was too young really), then took a 20-year break until AOS dropped in 2015.  I remember the old black and white fallen Giant template in there, and at the time I saw owning one as an unimaginable luxury.  The fact that they were part of Orcs and Goblins was part of why I'm still an orc guy. 

For me they're iconic because of that, and I really hope they retain some kind of falling down mechanic (I'm sure they will), without it being crippling like the current one.  

Also in case anyone was wondering, I've had a Gargant die (I lose the roll off) and fall into a second Gargant and kill him (I lose the roll off) and fall into an Arachnarok Spider and kill him.  Domino Rally right through the heart of my army 😬

[kaaras]

If I have one concern about this release, its the potential price tag. Knights and wraithknights aren't cheap, and seeing the prices on some of the newer big models has me potentially a little nervous. It will be awesome, but colour me cautious...

[Kadeton]

4 hours ago, kaaras said:

If I have one concern about this release, its the potential price tag. Knights and wraithknights aren't cheap, and seeing the prices on some of the newer big models has me potentially a little nervous. It will be awesome, but colour me cautious...

This is fair, but model count will also be interesting.

The current Aleguzzler is only 160 points, but has fairly crippling rules. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see it get a buff and a corresponding points increase. I doubt we'll see SoB lists running 10+ Aleguzzlers.

And then the larger giants... I'm just not quite sure where they will fit in the points range. If they were ~400 points they'd be on par with a Bonegrinder, which I'd guess is probably about right. You're probably looking at 4-6 models for your whole army.

To me, that begs the question of how they're going to do any battalions for the Sons. With so few models to work with, there's not much room for the variety of requirements that distinguish battalions in other forces. I guess they could just have requirements like "2-4 SONS OF BEHEMAT GARGANTS" and leave it completely up to the player.

My secret hope is that all three (or four?) of the new Gargants come in a single super-versatile kit, along the same lines as the Baneblade 8-way multi-kit. Just a box with a big ol' mess of gargant bits to throw together however you want.

[PlasticCraic]

Not knowing much about Knights: would expensive models translate into an expensive army?

I know in AOS it's not generally the Big Things armies that are expensive to collect: FEC and BCR are actually (relatively) super cheap to buy into.

It's large numbers of expensive troops that tends to make an army prohibitive (see: Witch Aelves, Hearthguard).

I wouldn't be shocked if a 2000 point army looks something like:

• Bonegrinder-sized dude with King Brodd and generic Gargant King options.  Let's say 460-520 points (Maw Krusha / Gordrakk) and GUO / KOS price tag of AUD 230.  You'll probably take one or the other in your army.
• New Gargants, either as 3 options in one kit or three separate kits.  Say 320 - 400 points (Thundertusk / Stonehorn level), coming in at AUD 180 ish (similar to a KO Ironclad / Idoneth turtle).  Let's say you're taking 3 of these, because New Toys.
• Then you've got the good old Aleguzzler.  I'd love to see them packed up in 2s again, because they are expensive for what they are, but most likely we'll be asked to pay the current price of AUD 83.  Let's err on the side of caution and say he gets better rules for the same 160 points.  You'll probably only have room to fit in a couple of these once you've taken all of the above.
• Maybe a Battalion, maybe an extra Aleguzzler.

I've got that coming in between AUD 900 and AUD 1000 for a 2000 point army, plus the book and any terrain, less any Allies you put in there.

Which is obviously a lot of money, but would probably be at or below the median for an AOS army I would think?  Especially if you already have a couple of Aleguzzlers sitting on your shelf, ready to join the fray.

PS if I was going to make a completely unfounded prediction, maybe the competitive build looks nothing like that, and it's like 2 of whichever new Hero is the best, and about 10 Aleguzzlers to spam their amazing new rules and Battalion 🤣

Edited April 8, 2020 by PlasticCraic

[kaaras]

Just looking at the GW webstore, the biggest Knights are AUD 280, Armiger 125, ones in between 185. Wraithknights are 125 as well, which is a bargain (relatively speaking of course). I think the KoS might be a good guess at the big guys prices, at AUD 230 a pop. I agree, I think the big ones will be Bonegrinder/Mawkrusha level points, Brodd himself might be up near Gordrakk or beyond. Imperial Knight armies are normally (well, when I used to play 40k, which is a while back) 5 dudes, so up to near AUD 1500 once you get everything else (again, can't remember their points cost but in a 1750 game you could squeeze in 5). 

10 Aleguzzlers would be awesome to see, 1600 points of falling over when charging...

[Patriark]

I’m going to start a grand rebasing of my old giants. On GWs webpage it doesn’t say what oval base the gargant kit comes with, and the old AoS base size chart is from 2018. In the chart from 2018 it says the gargant should be on a 90x52 mm oval base. Can anyone who bought a kit recently confirm this size? Thanks in advance!

Edit: nevermind, found the updated base size chart from december 2019. 90x52 it is!

Edited April 8, 2020 by Patriark

[KingBrodd]

Newest Hammerhal Herald. 

[Malakithe]

While i love Knights and stuff like that the real issue is that big giant monster type models/units dont do well in AoS with the exception of the Stonehorn. 

Lets assume they will tweak the current warscrolls while adding in new ones. In order for this type of army to work and function at all they will all need 20+ wounds, 2+ saves, MW shrugs, and the damage capability of a Stonehorn while trying to not be some niche 5 model army for 2k points. 

I think the idea of the army is great but it wont work at all on the tabletop. All Knight armies get steamrolled by models a fraction of their points cost. 

Or maybe they will get the Freeblade treatment and be mercenaries that can be included in other armies but still retain their allegiance rules.

[KingBrodd]

13 hours ago, Malakithe said:

While i love Knights and stuff like that the real issue is that big giant monster type models/units dont do well in AoS with the exception of the Stonehorn. 

Lets assume they will tweak the current warscrolls while adding in new ones. In order for this type of army to work and function at all they will all need 20+ wounds, 2+ saves, MW shrugs, and the damage capability of a Stonehorn while trying to not be some niche 5 model army for 2k points. 

I think the idea of the army is great but it wont work at all on the tabletop. All Knight armies get steamrolled by models a fraction of their points cost. 

Or maybe they will get the Freeblade treatment and be mercenaries that can be included in other armies but still retain their allegiance rules.

We wont really know how theyll play till their released, I think GW will have learned from the Knights and with the recent Steggageddon release.

Edited April 10, 2020 by KingBrodd

[Skabnoze]

10 hours ago, Malakithe said:

While i love Knights and stuff like that the real issue is that big giant monster type models/units dont do well in AoS with the exception of the Stonehorn. 

Lets assume they will tweak the current warscrolls while adding in new ones. In order for this type of army to work and function at all they will all need 20+ wounds, 2+ saves, MW shrugs, and the damage capability of a Stonehorn while trying to not be some niche 5 model army for 2k points. 

I think the idea of the army is great but it wont work at all on the tabletop. All Knight armies get steamrolled by models a fraction of their points cost. 

Or maybe they will get the Freeblade treatment and be mercenaries that can be included in other armies but still retain their allegiance rules.

We have no idea that this is a 5 model army or simply an army of bigger models.  The current Aleguzzler is only 160 points.  What if they stay the same point value and become something more like Dankhold Troggoths - which is a big model you can take in units of 3 if you want?  The only inherent problems to singular models in standard matched-play AoS is that they count as one model for holding objectives and most scenarios use objectives for victory conditions.  Stonehorns are good as an all monster army because they explicitly have a rule that solves this issue.  I am almost positive we can expect an army of ALL big monsters to have a similar rule of some sort (if not the same rule).

Comparing an army of all big things in AoS to one in 40k is not an overly good comparison because the games are fundamentally different in a number of ways.  What makes all Knights good, or poor, in 40k is not necessarily the same as what would make all big monsters good or bad in AoS.

[novakai]

Rumor is that they punt objective into a different location

well, my thoughts are that they are marketing them as "field an army of gargants, gargants and nothing but gargants" so the rule writer will probably try to make that type of army work in the game. whether they end up as s-tier broken, perfectly balance, need finesse and skills to win, or a bit underpower is a different matter.

also since they are a destruction battletome I don't think they will freeblade them outside the current three armies in the alliance.

[Beer & Pretzels Gamer]

Just when I thought I was out, they PULL me back in!

Seriously, with the Mawtribes release considered my Destruction Box more than satisfactorily checked.  But then our family’s “art class” substitution got me back painting models and while I still don’t enjoy working on small models at larger scales I have to admit I am seeing some improvement.   At first I wasn’t too sure about the Sons but remembered enjoying detailing a partially painted Ale Guzzler last year and then that preview...

And then the rationalizations start.  No, I don’t “need” another army but... this one will only have a few models so it’s not like I’d be taking up too much more space.  And yes, I just got done selling most of my old Gitz army because I was much more into my Gutbusters and BCR so I particularly don’t “need” another Destruction army but... surely the Mawtribes and Sons will be able to ally.  And so on and so forth.

In the end if the new tome can offer me enough differentiation from Mawtribes (though I am guessing they’ll get a similar “counts as X models for objectives” along with any “punting”) I just have to accept that I’ll be adding this faction.

I am actually hoping that it ends up closer to ten or twelve  models for a standard list.  My current thought is that it will end up being something like three 3x unit battle lines (sized somewhere between Rockgut Troggoths and Aleguzzlers or simply the latter’s size), a “super-sized” hero, and two support Heroes (most likely priests or wizards) sized in between. 

But will just have to wait & see.

[Skabnoze]

15 minutes ago, Beer & Pretzels Gamer said:

I am actually hoping that it ends up closer to ten or twelve  models for a standard list.  My current thought is that it will end up being something like three 3x unit battle lines (sized somewhere between Rockgut Troggoths and Aleguzzlers or simply the latter’s size), a “super-sized” hero, and two support Heroes (most likely priests or wizards) sized in between. 

My suspicion, which is based on little other then pure guessing, is that the core troops (and smallest model) will be the current Aleguzzler kit or a possible rework of that kit.

Those models are on 90mm ovals - which is the same size as Ironjawz Goregruntas.  That seems a perfect “small” size for units of Gargants.  If they refresh that kit then I would not be surprised to see them end up on 60mm round bases instead.

I expect from there we will see 2 more tiers of larger gargants.  A massive centerpiece kit for a Bonegrinder or something similar with an option for a hero.  And then a kit in between the current Aleguzzler and the massive one which makes 1-2 types of gargant unit and then a number of hero options.

They might make more kits or do something really wacky - but the above is my guess.

[Beer & Pretzels Gamer]

24 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

They might make more kits or do something really wacky - but the above is my guess.

The biggest surprise I’d love to see is a Gargantuan Artillery Unit!  Not a gargant using a separate artillery piece mind you (though believe me I’d take that too) but more a gargant holding a ballista like it was a crossbow or using the arm of a catapult like a lacrosse stick.  That’s probably too far out there though.   Think I saw someone earlier in the thread picturing the gargant version of a leadbelcher, which could be cool as well.  More likely is to get them just throwing rocks as our Shooting Phase...

Part of the hoping for more models though is that the army gets rounded out enough.  For battle line current Aleguzzler or updated version plus a second kit that can be modeled at least two ways (too much to ask that each of the two different ways gets two weapons options)?  BCR and the three gargant preview gives me hope that we could see something like the Stonehorn/Thundertusk - Frostlord/Huskard/Beastriders versatility in the mid-tier kit(s).   That would allow for a Start Collecting kit a la BCR with one of the mid-tier kits and one of the new battleline kits.

Then I agree the money maker model kit of King Brodd/Generic Super-sized Gargant (a la the old Khorne’s Khul/Mighty Lord of Khorne thinking, albeit hopefully with more diversity).

From I’m done to day dreams like these...

But while I’m at it a unique rule I’d like to see, even if just for the largest gargant is the Drax “Nothing Goes Over My Head” rule that’s prevents flying units from going over them when moving, charging or piling in.  At a minimum would like to see them get “Swing Batter, Batter, Swing!” bonuses against Flying units given they are effectively on the same level (at least as modeled... understand technically they fly higher but think this is an under explored area of the game that could give Gargants some unique flavor).

[Souleater]

Hopefully we will have the flexibility to run the army in either a 'horde of Aleguzzlers' or or an 'army of two' style.  Or, the more mixed armies folks have suggested above.

Both Orruk Warclans and Cities of Sigmar did a good job of allowing different army builds.

(Sketch of the idea. Not saying definitely two. Would definitely need special rules to compete in the objective game  etc)

 

Random final thought that won't happen, but I would love a rule that a drunken or slain Son falling on an objective prevents the enemy from contesting it 😄 

[KingBrodd]

8 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

My suspicion, which is based on little other then pure guessing, is that the core troops (and smallest model) will be the current Aleguzzler kit or a possible rework of that kit.

Those models are on 90mm ovals - which is the same size as Ironjawz Goregruntas.  That seems a perfect “small” size for units of Gargants.  If they refresh that kit then I would not be surprised to see them end up on 60mm round bases instead.

I expect from there we will see 2 more tiers of larger gargants.  A massive centerpiece kit for a Bonegrinder or something similar with an option for a hero.  And then a kit in between the current Aleguzzler and the massive one which makes 1-2 types of gargant unit and then a number of hero options.

They might make more kits or do something really wacky - but the above is my guess.

I've always been of the mind that the Aleguzzler would be the core troop type for this army. I'd love a rework of the kit so it's not so monopose but I do doubt theyd do that.

I basically agree on all your points, I think the Kreaken Eater, Warstomper and Gate Breaker are all going to be the mid sized Gargants, larger than the Aleguzzler and hopefully the Cygor/Ghorgon and then the King Brodd/Leader/Bonegrinder kit.

Though I'll admit I'd love for the Bonegrinder kit to be even larger than the King Brodd/Leader.

[Aelfric]

12 hours ago, novakai said:

Rumor is that they punt objective into a different location

Perhaps they stuff it down their pants!

[Skabnoze]

3 hours ago, Aelfric said:

Perhaps they stuff it down their pants!

And then if you kill them all of the objectives fall out.

[Aelfric]

28 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

And then if you kill them all of the objectives fall out.

Exactly!  Hopefully, that's all that falls out