Sons of Behemat Discussion 👣

[Emperor of Zhong]

No retreat and charge in the same turn. 

[Super_Prototype]

9 hours ago, Kasper said:

Im guessing the mercenary Mega Gargants are screwed too since they are their own thing and not specifically the dudes mentioned on page 76, 77 and 78? Seems like a potential silly oversight.  

No, they're fine. They don't have separate warscrolls to the 'base' mega gargants, it's just 'take this gargant type as a merc, have an extra ability on the house'.

[Kasper]

15 hours ago, Emperor of Zhong said:

No retreat and charge in the same turn. 

Im not sure why this was even a question to begin with though. Longshanks is effectively a worse version of fly. If you could freely "retreat" out of combat with Longshanks, there would be nothing stopping flying models from doing the same, which they havent.

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

can anyone explain the best order of operations for priming and paintin mega faces? the mouth area is quite a conundrum. once the actual jaws are in its impossible to get any sort of brush angle. i mean i could just keep it boring and just paint it pinkish but that dental work though...it needs to be seen.

[Superking]

You can reach most of the detail even when it's glued in. The tongue is a bit harder admittedly but I think it's easier to paint it with jaws in. 

[Ganigumo]

11 hours ago, Kasper said:

Im not sure why this was even a question to begin with though. Longshanks is effectively a worse version of fly. If you could freely "retreat" out of combat with Longshanks, there would be nothing stopping flying models from doing the same, which they havent.

Flying from the core rules:
 

Quote

If the warscroll for a model says that the model can fly, it can pass across models and terrain features as if they were not there when it makes any type of move. Any vertical distance up and/or down is ignored when measuring a flying model’s move. It cannot finish the move on top of another model

Longshanks:
 

Quote

When this model makes a normal move, it can ignore models that have a Wounds characteristic of 10 or less and terrain features that are less than 4" tall at their highest point. It cannot finish the move on top of another model or within 3" of an enemy model.

Retreating:
 

Quote

When you make a normal move for a model, no part of the move can be within 3" of an enemy unit. Units starting a normal move within 3" of an enemy unit can either remain stationary or retreat. If a unit retreats, it can move within 3" of an enemy, but must end the move more than 3" from all enemy units. Models in a unit that retreats can’t shoot or charge later in the same turn.

The reason we needed commentary was because longshanks overrides the normal rules, and you ignore models with a wounds characteristic of 4 or less, so we needed to know if longshanks also overrode the retreat rules. Fly doesn't ignore models, it just allows you to move over them. Longshanks also doesn't let you pile in or charge over models.

[Gdead909]

Undead mancrushers 

[Drazhoath]

I feel a bit divided:

I know it depends on the tribe but are 3 Mancrusher enough or its better to play with 3 Mega Gargants at 2000 points? Or better 6 Mancrusher?

Edited November 21, 2020 by Drazhoath
Bla

[TheArborealWalrus]

1 hour ago, Drazhoath said:

I know it depends on the tribe but are 3 Mancrusher enough or its better to play with 3 Mega Gargants at 2000 points? Or better 6 Mancrusher?

Mind you, I am still converting mine and haven't gotten to play, but I feel like 2 megas and 6 mancrushers is a good number. Different tribes will prefer different numbers of course. Stomper tribes benefit mancrushers more than megas so prefer larger numbers of them. Breaker tribes benefit the megas (gatebreaker only) the most, so probably more for them. Kraken is an awkward bit. The sandal makes them good for damage, but the army doesn't quite seem to need the benefit from the ability. Maybe more megas to take advantage of the additional artifact? I'm not sure what they seem designed for. *shrug*
Good luck with your stompening!

[Izotzuhure]

I've finished both of my mechanical nightmare Mega gargants! 

[a74xhx]

Anyone done conversions to change the position of the mega Gargant legs yet? I get the feeling it's going to involve lots of green stuff sculpting.

[Latty]

On 11/21/2020 at 1:48 PM, Drazhoath said:

I feel a bit divided:

I know it depends on the tribe but are 3 Mancrusher enough or its better to play with 3 Mega Gargants at 2000 points? Or better 6 Mancrusher?

Just a little anecdotal evidence but out of the 15 or so games I've played with SoB so far I've won every game with 3 megas/3 mancrushers and lost or tied every game with 2 megas/6 mancrushers. So far I'm leaning on 3/3.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Latty

[Drazhoath]

2 hours ago, Latty said:

Just a little anecdotal evidence but out of the 15 or so games I've played with SoB so far I've won every game with 3 megas/3 mancrushers and lost or tied every game with 2 megas/6 mancrushers. So far I'm leaning on 3/3.

I guest your point...Mancrusher have a 5+ Save and an unit which loose 12 wounds (1 Mancrusher) looses 1/3 of its punch. A Mega Gargant which loose 12 Wounds is just a bit weaker. Which Tribe you tried?🤔

Edited November 23, 2020 by Drazhoath

[TheArborealWalrus]

3 hours ago, Latty said:

15 or so games I've played with SoB

Out of curiosity, what tribe(s) were you playing?

Having played against SoB multiple times with my other armies, I feel that the matchups/enemy composition matter greatly for success. My minotaurs could kill a mega in one combat phase and I tabled my opponent pretty easily with them. My other beastmen army, based more on numbers and chipping the megas down, had no answer to their destructive might. They merely died piece meal. Likewise the mission will decide how well 3 megas do. They hardcore struggled in missions where there are many objectives. They simply couldn't defend their own and take mine. Even having more mancrushers, it was hard for my opponent, especially when his giants were under legitimate threat of being killed.  Mind you this is 8 games against them vs 15 as them. The megas are very hard to kill, so I could definitely see an enemy without proper(ly protected) hammers consistently getting the floor wiped with them by 3 megas.

My current theoretical list is: breaker tribe with 2 gate breakers, 1x3 mancrushers, and 3x1 mancrushers. Gatebreakers hit hard and the tribe benefits both units in the army. Obviously the singles defend the home objectives/screen while the rest go for the enemy. I think they'll struggle vs powerful monsters and castles, but I'm hoping the balls out damage of the gatebreakers will handle such threats. I'm leaning towards the "idiots with flags" hatred because most units have a command section, so the most possible benefit. I do like the idea of sniping enemy heroes with rocks however. Although, personally I hate it when that happens to me, so I probably won't. I kind of like the second hatred for the general so he can go handle the nasty monsters/heroes, but as a proud khorne player the + 2 attacks is tasty. Probably the portcullis for the artifact (fits the idea I had for the general too) unless I really want to do the whole hero sniping thing.

This next bit is just fluff so feel free to skip. The general will have been ensorcrolled by chaos dwarfs and then his tribe declared war on the stunties. (not sure what gargants call dwarves)  The idea is too cool not to try, so  now I have to see if anyone by me has chaos knight parts. Interestingly the book mentions female gargants, so I might also try my hand at making one of those. The tribe started in ghur before being driven out by another tribe, which is when the chaos dwarves stole the chieftain. Angered, they followed the dwarves into chammon where they eventually freed the chief from enslavement. The dwarves had heard of what happened in shysh and thought to try it on a mega. Turned out to be harder than they thought to keep their pet. The tribe likewise managed to free a couple of mancrushers while they were at it. From there they went through ulgu into ghyran where they lived "peacefully" for a time. The slyvaneth  eventually drove them out into a burning desert of Aqshy where they forcibly hired themselves out to a city that they had been using the trade shipments of to survive. Now Morathy happened and Aqshy is on fire with troubles. Suddenly happy for their "protectors" the two have formed a real alliance. We shall see how long the oasis in the burning sea can keep it's protectors fed or if their plans to dispose of the gargants need to come to fruition. 

Enough rambling, however!

In Behemat's name!

Edited November 23, 2020 by TheArborealWalrus

[Latty]

50 minutes ago, Drazhoath said:

I guest your point...Mancrusher have a 5+ Save and an unit which loose 12 wounds (1 Mancrusher) looses 1/3 of its punch. A Mega Gargant which loose 12 Wounds is just a bit weaker. Which Tribe you tried?🤔

Taker/Breaker tribe, with Kraken-eater, Gatebreaker and in games with 3 megas, Bonegrinder.

[Ganigumo]

1 minute ago, TheArborealWalrus said:

Out of curiosity, what tribe(s) were you playing?

Having played against SoB multiple times with my other armies, I feel that the matchups/enemy composition matter greatly for success. My minotaurs could kill a mega in one combat phase and I tabled my opponent pretty easily with them. My other beastmen army, based more on numbers and chipping the megas down, had no answer to their destructive might. They merely died piece meal. Likewise the mission will decide how well 3 megas do. They hardcore struggled in missions where there are many objectives. They simply couldn't defend their own and take mine. Even having more mancrushers, it was hard for my opponent, especially when his giants were under legitimate threat of being killed.  Mind you this is 8 games against them vs 15 as them. The megas are very hard to kill, so I could definitely see an enemy without proper(ly protected) hammers consistently getting the floor wiped with them by 3 megas.

My current theoretical list is: breaker tribe with 2 gate breakers, 1x3 mancrushers, and 3x1 mancrushers. Gatebreakers hit hard and the tribe benefits both units in the army. Obviously the singles defend the home objectives/screen while the rest go for the enemy. I think they'll struggle vs powerful monsters, but I'm hoping the balls out damage of the gatebreakers will handle such threats. I'm leaning towards the "idiots with flags" hatred because most units have a command section, so the most possible benefit. I do like the idea of sniping enemy heroes with rocks however. Although, personally I hate it when that happens to me, so I probably won't. I kind of like the second hatred for the general so he can go handle the nasty monsters/heroes, but as a proud khorne player the + 2 attacks is tasty. Probably the portcullis for the artifact (fits the idea I had for the general too) unless I really want to do the whole hero sniping thing.

 

Yeah I'm pretty sure the answer to SoB is to bring at least one hyper-offensive unit that can take down a mega quickly. SoB have no answer to things that can kill them in a single round, and while that may seem "obvious" most armies use chaff, shooting, and magic to make those units more manageable, none of which we have in any meaningful capacity. In casual games many players don't think to bring this stuff, or push them to the limits of their damage output, but you can expect those kinds of things in a more competitive environment. There are a bunch of armies with units that can put out 35+ wounds against a 4+ with good consistency, that also have the tools to properly protect those units from SoB since we have no movement shenanigans. Many of those units tend to be weak to shooting though, which works in our favor since they may show up less often, although we're not exactly strong against shooting either.

 

tldr; we're strong against stuff that grinds, but weak against strong hammers.

[Latty]

6 minutes ago, TheArborealWalrus said:

Out of curiosity, what tribe(s) were you playing?

Having played against SoB multiple times with my other armies, I feel that the matchups/enemy composition matter greatly for success. My minotaurs could kill a mega in one combat phase and I tabled my opponent pretty easily with them. My other beastmen army, based more on numbers and chipping the megas down, had no answer to their destructive might. They merely died piece meal. Likewise the mission will decide how well 3 megas do. They hardcore struggled in missions where there are many objectives. They simply couldn't defend their own and take mine. Even having more mancrushers, it was hard for my opponent, especially when his giants were under legitimate threat of being killed.  Mind you this is 8 games against them vs 15 as them. The megas are very hard to kill, so I could definitely see an enemy without proper(ly protected) hammers consistently getting the floor wiped with them by 3 megas.

My list of victories with 3 megas is as follows:

Versus Daughters of Khaine, pre-Morathi buff, Taker tribe, absolutely crushed the opponent, tabled by round 2

Versus SCE, Breaker tribe (Shiny' uns) twice, also overwhelming victories

Versus Bonereapers, Breaker tribe (idiots with flags), decisive victory, this was the standard Praetorians with 2 catapults list, so I hold that as my standard for SoB in competitive play. A considerably close match won by carefully avoiding the blob of mortek guard and focus-firing catapults with all my shooting.

Versus Tzeentch, Taker tribe, overwhelming victory.

Versus Hallowheart Freeguild,  twice, both Taker tribe, decisive victories by playing keep-away with objectives and outrunning large blobs of handgunners.

Versus Beasts of Chaos, Breaker tribe (idiots with flags), close victory. Barely won this one with a lone Mancrusher capping a rear objective to clinch enough points for victory.

Versus Khorne, Breaker tribe (Bossy pants and clever clogs), overwhelming victory, this was a match just for fun versus a 4 bloodthirster list.

My losses, with Kraken-eater, Gatebreaker, 1x3 and 3x1 mancrushers:

Versus Daughters of Khaine post-Morathi buff, Taker tribe, a close match until Morathi managed to take my Gatebreaker from 35 to 0 in a single combat phase. A mere 8 witch aelves cleared my unit of 3 mancrushers as well, DoK is just a disgusting army now anyways. Match ended in a tie.

Versus Beasts of Chaos, Breaker tribe (Shiny 'uns), a weird Bloodcrusher/Bullgor list, just too much firepower for anything to stand up against it. Almost won by running the lone Mancrushers around to cap objectives until he was able to summon Bloodletters onto one.

Versus Legion of Azgorh, Breaker tribe (Shiny 'uns), I don't really count this one as my opponent took an extra turn (he took first turn in round 3, then claimed I did after my turn), but due to it being a friendly event I didn't make too much of a fuss about it.

Versus Kharadron Overlords, Breaker tribe (Shiny 'uns), a close match, I took out his Ironclad in a single attack phase in round 2, but still couldn't keep up with his deepstriking to pick off lone megas, and he was able to dominate the board after that. It felt a lot better than playing other armies against KO and I think I could beat him next time.

[Vyrullax]

Done with the 3rd mancrusher and this completes my first battleline!

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

Clarifying question for Taker tribe: The Very Acquisitive command trait means that effectively you can take 1 artifact from anywhere and a 2nd artifact that has to be from the Taker list, correct? For instance I want the Incandescent Blade from Aqshy and then I choose the Kraken Sandals. Without battalions and special rules to get more customization for our Megas, this seems to be the most effective way.

[novakai]

WIP only Krakeneater, slowly painting him up

[TheArborealWalrus]

On 11/26/2020 at 2:40 AM, Riff_Raff_Rascal said:

For instance I want the Incandescent Blade from Aqshy and then I choose the Kraken Sandals.

Yes, it is perfectly legal for you to do that. Technically your base artifact would have to be the incandescent blade because the extra artifact is only taker tribe ones. The wording is a little funky, making it sound like both are meant to be from the taker tribe, but since the faq didn't touch this and base rules say you can take realm artfacts, I think you're in the clear. 

On 11/21/2020 at 3:13 PM, a74xhx said:

Anyone done conversions to change the position of the mega Gargant legs yet?

I haven't, but I've been eying it up for that. Watching someone else build it showed me it's all pieces meant to fit neatly into each other. Altering any one piece would require gap filling (like milimeters to centimeters of filling depending on the position) to get the new pose, followed by likely extensive re-sculpting. This combined with it being hollow (great for weight, bad for filling in holes) would make changing the leg positions a very difficult task. Not for the feint of heart I'd say. Doable, but challenging.

Lots of great looking gargants stomping around!

[Marcvs]

As a first foray into Sons of Behemat and to play without putting too much pressure on myself I'll bring this Christmas themed list to a TTS event:

Spoiler

Santa Klaus is coming to Chamon

Allegiance: Sons of Behemat
- Tribe: Taker Tribe

-Greyfyrd Lodge Mercenary Company
Mortal Realm: Chamon
Santa (490)
Kraken-eater Mega-Gargant
- General
- Command Trait: Extremely Intimidating
- Artefact: Plate of Perfect Protection
Jack Frost (490)
Gatebreaker Mega-Gargant
- Allies
Rudolph (120)
Auric Runesmiter
- Forge Key
-Allies
Dancer (180)
1 x Mancrusher Gargants
Prancer (180)
1 x Mancrusher Gargants
Vixen (180)
1 x Mancrusher Gargants
Santa's Little Helpers (280)
20 x Vulkite Berzerkers
- War-Picks & Slingshields
- Allies
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 1970 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 770 / 400
Wounds: 151
 

Anyone else tried the Fyreslayers mercenaries?

EDIT: turns out, the list is illegal. I should have checked it twice

Edited December 3, 2020 by Marcvs

[TaurielBlack]

On 12/3/2020 at 7:39 PM, Marcvs said:

As a first foray into Sons of Behemat and to play without putting too much pressure on myself I'll bring this Christmas themed list to a TTS event:

  Hide contents

Santa Klaus is coming to Chamon

Allegiance: Sons of Behemat
- Tribe: Taker Tribe

-Greyfyrd Lodge Mercenary Company
Mortal Realm: Chamon
Santa (490)
Kraken-eater Mega-Gargant
- General
- Command Trait: Extremely Intimidating
- Artefact: Plate of Perfect Protection
Jack Frost (490)
Gatebreaker Mega-Gargant
- Allies
Rudolph (120)
Auric Runesmiter
- Forge Key
-Allies
Dancer (180)
1 x Mancrusher Gargants
Prancer (180)
1 x Mancrusher Gargants
Vixen (180)
1 x Mancrusher Gargants
Santa's Little Helpers (280)
20 x Vulkite Berzerkers
- War-Picks & Slingshields
- Allies
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 1970 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 770 / 400
Wounds: 151
 

Anyone else tried the Fyreslayers mercenaries?

EDIT: turns out, the list is illegal. I should have checked it twice

hrm, why's the gatebreaker an ally?

[gianmh]

Are the sons coming to warcry???

[TaurielBlack]

cause he's fine to be in taker tribe as a non ally