NERF Mega boss on Maw krusha

[Cid]

On 1/21/2020 at 11:59 AM, Dankboss said:

Mine was a passing comment on how it's not an unbeatable terror; there was no indication of general experience to be had, so I can assume enough game knowledge since they seemed familiar with its previous incarnation. If I wanted to detail how to beat one using advanced methods, I would have done so. You're coming on a bit strong here.

However, now we're here, we might as well outline the best strategy using what the player has at their disposal. @Cid can you tell us more about your situation and lists?

Hey yeah my mistake was not knowing how much they changed him from last time i played that army. i'm glad i opened the thread cause i learned of ways to deal with him directly if you have to. Also realized i was using the wrong army to take him down but decent for the battle plan we played . however from the models i have seen and played against  i still think he may be too cheap for his power. but ey im wrong about a lot only human here. 

[Malakree]

2 hours ago, Cid said:

Okay so maybe that's what i'm not understanding, Cause he kept healing with the gained wounds so if i got him down to 12 wounds and then killed one of my models he would go up to 13 and so on. I still won the game cause it was objective and i managed to our smart him and distracted Maw Krusha  but from playing him before to now the change was huge.  I definitely understand to stay away , use shooting and mortal wounds but compared to other models that cost about the same he just seems nuts now. But i do thank you for response without attacking me for simply opening a question cause i was  confused. 

So a model has a damage table. As the mawkrusha takes damage it becomes slower, has less fist attacks and rolls less impact dice. The damage table is calculated on damage taken not wounds remaining, so while the mawkrusha is gaining wounds it's not healing damage thus is not going back up on it's profile.

The mk is a little weird but essentially there are two values being tracked, damage taken and wounds characteristic, when damage taken equals or exceeds the wounds characteristic of a model that model is slain.

As an example.

A mawkrusha has taken 7 damage and has a wounds characteristic of 15. It's currently on the "7-10" profile so moves 8" and has 6 fist/impact dice. SfV triggers and it gain a wound, it now has wounds characteristic of 16 so has 9 wounds remaining instead of 8. However it has still taken 7 damage so is still on the "7-10" profile. If it had HEALED a wound it wound be on 6 damage taken and now be in the "4-6" bracket with a move of 10" and 7 fist/impact dice.

The end result is that if you get it low even though it gains wounds it's now much slower. At bottom profile it moves 4"...

[Cid]

50 minutes ago, TALegion said:

As FEC, I think your best option is a lord on a terrorgeist vs. the maw krusha (gristlegore, too, if you can). If you manage to get a single 6, you'll remove over a third of his wounds with that single hit -  not to mention all of your other damage. If you manage to hit him first  it will decay the krusha's fist attacks, which are the biggest source of rend and damage from the model. And if you're gristlegore, you'll get to hit him back even if he kills your unit in combat.

Unless the maw krusha specifically builds to resist mortal wounds (e.g. brings Ignax Scales as an artefact), maw krushas have no natural resistance to mortals at all. Many people will build their cabbage to negate/lessen rend (e.g. Ethereal Amulet or Ironsun's Sunblessed Armor), so mortals will normally be the big weakness.

 

Also, if you're dealing with a maw krusha and don't believe that you have the tools to kill it easily, sometimes your best is to just give yourself more time. Retreating in your turn after the maw krusha charges you negates him from fighting during your turn AND prevents him fighting in his next hero phase with Mighty Destroyers. That's 2 fewer rounds where the cabbage gets to do damage just by disengaging. Even if you can't kill it easily, you have a couple ways to lessen its impact over the course of the game.

Superb advice ! Thank you, i will 100% work with keeping him out of reach or ill bring barriers in the form of endless spells next time to keep him away.

The problem with the GKOT is that it's hard to get that 6 on three dice, I was running a GKOT but didn't hit the 6 on hit so dealt like 5 wounds total of which he saved 3 cause of crazy low saves and one mortal wound of the 2 that went thru he rolled the 6 so it got negated. So the one damage i manage to do with my 420 point monster hero was recovered after he shredded thru my GKOT when he retaliated. ( i didn't have a command point to feeding frenzy). 

With that being said i managed to win the game cause i kept him distracted and used ghouls and summoning to get more victory points thru objectives. But he is one tough dude and if it went 6 rounds i would of gotten completely whipped out. 

[NauticalSoup]

The real tragedy here is that TALegion broke Cid's octuple-post combo.

Also, the irony of a FEC player complaining about Maw Krushas when they have Terrorgeists is not lost on me.

Edited January 22, 2020 by NauticalSoup
Decided I was being too generous to the battletome that almost killed my local Sigmar community

[tripchimeras]

39 minutes ago, Cid said:

Superb advice ! Thank you, i will 100% work with keeping him out of reach or ill bring barriers in the form of endless spells next time to keep him away.

The problem with the GKOT is that it's hard to get that 6 on three dice, I was running a GKOT but didn't hit the 6 on hit so dealt like 5 wounds total of which he saved 3 cause of crazy low saves and one mortal wound of the 2 that went thru he rolled the 6 so it got negated. So the one damage i manage to do with my 420 point monster hero was recovered after he shredded thru my GKOT when he retaliated. ( i didn't have a command point to feeding frenzy). 

With that being said i managed to win the game cause i kept him distracted and used ghouls and summoning to get more victory points thru objectives. But he is one tough dude and if it went 6 rounds i would of gotten completely whipped out. 

With FEC Terrorgheist ghoul king the way to nearly guarantee the crazy mortal spam, is A. to have the command point on hand to feeding frenzy so you can effectively double your attacks.  If there is something that can go mono a mono with your Terrorgheist you always want to save a command point for that fight eventuality and B. to get off the +d3 attack spell.  All of a sudden 3 dice becomes somewhere between 8-12.  Insta-death to Maw Krusha if charged.  If you go a step further and put doppleganger cloak on him you are even more advantaged in the matchup, as then he basically can't win the 1 on 1 without you first expending the cloak.  It is not something I like to see across from my Maw Krusha, all of a sudden I'm the one desperately playing keep away and trying to screen and counter.  Not ideal.

Sounds like you went in under the least optimal conditions for the Terrorgheist to win the fight.

Edited January 22, 2020 by tripchimeras

[Cid]

45 minutes ago, Malakree said:

So a model has a damage table. As the mawkrusha takes damage it becomes slower, has less fist attacks and rolls less impact dice. The damage table is calculated on damage taken not wounds remaining, so while the mawkrusha is gaining wounds it's not healing damage thus is not going back up on it's profile.

The mk is a little weird but essentially there are two values being tracked, damage taken and wounds characteristic, when damage taken equals or exceeds the wounds characteristic of a model that model is slain.

As an example.

A mawkrusha has taken 7 damage and has a wounds characteristic of 15. It's currently on the "7-10" profile so moves 8" and has 6 fist/impact dice. SfV triggers and it gain a wound, it now has wounds characteristic of 16 so has 9 wounds remaining instead of 8. However it has still taken 7 damage so is still on the "7-10" profile. If it had HEALED a wound it wound be on 6 damage taken and now be in the "4-6" bracket with a move of 10" and 7 fist/impact dice.

The end result is that if you get it low even though it gains wounds it's now much slower. At bottom profile it moves 4"...

ok so yeah we (My buddy and i) were playing it wrong he just never got weak no matter how much damage i did, at the end of the game he was still using the 0-3 stat  and he never died so i was pretty screwed. Fortunately he was blood thirsty and fell for my bait, I over extended my Abhorrent  so he would go kill it, giving me time to take one of his objectives for long enough to win by victory points. but if it would of gone 6 rounds i would of lost bad. 

[Cid]

57 minutes ago, NauticalSoup said:

The real tragedy here is that TALegion broke Cid's octuple-post combo.

Also, the irony of a FEC player complaining about Maw Krushas when they have Terrorgeists is not lost on me.

No irony , we were playing it wrong and i'm glad i brought it up.  Now i know the actual way he works and i'm sure my buddy that owns him will be happy to hear, as he also found it super op and was loving it but at the same time wanted to be fair. 

[Cid]

46 minutes ago, tripchimeras said:

With FEC Terrorgheist ghoul king the way to nearly guarantee the crazy mortal spam, is A. to have the command point on hand to feeding frenzy so you can effectively double your attacks.  If there is something that can go mono a mono with your Terrorgheist you always want to save a command point for that fight eventuality and B. to get off the +d3 attack spell.  All of a sudden 3 dice becomes somewhere between 8-12.  Insta-death to Maw Krusha if charged.  If you go a step further and put doppleganger cloak on him you are even more advantaged in the matchup, as then he basically can't win the 1 on 1 without you first expending the cloak.  It is not something I like to see across from my Maw Krusha, all of a sudden I'm the one desperately playing keep away and trying to screen and counter.  Not ideal.

Sounds like you went in under the least optimal conditions for the Terrorgheist to win the fight.

"B. to get off the +d3 attack spell.  All of a sudden 3 dice becomes somewhere between 8-12.  Insta-death to Maw Krusha if charged. "  If you mean ferocious hunger i usually cast it on my 40 unit of ghouls but yeah if i know im going to fight maw i should cast on the GKOT. Also i completely overlooked the doppleganger cloak , pretty cool and will most likely be bringing it to my next battles. 

But i am confused on why the charge is important?  is there something im missing as far as charging with the GKOT?

[whispersofblood]

29 minutes ago, Cid said:

ok so yeah we (My buddy and i) were playing it wrong he just never got weak no matter how much damage i did, at the end of the game he was still using the 0-3 stat  and he never died so i was pretty screwed. Fortunately he was blood thirsty and fell for my bait, I over extended my Abhorrent  so he would go kill it, giving me time to take one of his objectives for long enough to win by victory points. but if it would of gone 6 rounds i would of lost bad. 

Ok, don't take this to be mean of disparaging but this needs to be nipped in the bud whenever it comes up.

Your whole perspective of AoS is wrong. Because the bolded is how the game is played, why its a game,  where competition actually happens. That is the interactions between the players not the models. You both have a toolbox, and you are trying to make the other player choosee between a variety of worse options or give them the chance to make the wrong choice. Lose concentration, take your eye of the prize, etc. It sounds to me like you and your partner had an amazing match, you both probably made a 5+ incorrect choices, but the one you mention is the fatal one for the scenario and decided the game.

And, the game is 5 turns, never 6 so that isn't an objective assessment of anything really.

[tripchimeras]

22 minutes ago, Cid said:

"B. to get off the +d3 attack spell.  All of a sudden 3 dice becomes somewhere between 8-12.  Insta-death to Maw Krusha if charged. "  If you mean ferocious hunger i usually cast it on my 40 unit of ghouls but yeah if i know im going to fight maw i should cast on the GKOT. Also i completely overlooked the doppleganger cloak , pretty cool and will most likely be bringing it to my next battles. 

But i am confused on why the charge is important?  is there something im missing as far as charging with the GKOT?

Because if you didn't charge you don't have asf and since it's his turn,  he is going to strike first because that combat is 99% of the time going to be the most important for him to resolve, and thus the one he starts his combat phase on.  Unless his luck is terrible he is killing your Terrorgheist in that situation.  That's why doppleganger cloak is so good on terrorgheist, it gives them massive advantage against opposing 1 hit killers.

Edited January 22, 2020 by tripchimeras

[Cid]

47 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

Ok, don't take this to be mean of disparaging but this needs to be nipped in the bud whenever it comes up.

Your whole perspective of AoS is wrong. Because the bolded is how the game is played, why its a game,  where competition actually happens. That is the interactions between the players not the models. You both have a toolbox, and you are trying to make the other player choosee between a variety of worse options or give them the chance to make the wrong choice. Lose concentration, take your eye of the prize, etc. It sounds to me like you and your partner had an amazing match, you both probably made a 5+ incorrect choices, but the one you mention is the fatal one for the scenario and decided the game.

And, the game is 5 turns, never 6 so that isn't an objective assessment of anything really.

oh no worries i didnt take it as mean i like the thoughts , i just don't think my perspective of the game is wrong i love the game because it is like a really long game of chess and you have to play your opponent as much as your playing the army they use.  I took advantage of him emotions and even though we both thought his Maw Krusha was op we played it and had a great time. With this new info though things will go differently and at least i know if i hurt it he will get weak and wont be able to move as much.  

[Cid]

54 minutes ago, tripchimeras said:

Because if you didn't charge you don't have asf and since it's his turn,  he is going to strike first because that combat is 99% of the time going to be the most important for him to resolve, and thus the one he starts his combat phase on.  Unless his luck is terrible he is killing your Terrorgheist in that situation.  That's why doppleganger cloak is so good on terrorgheist, it gives them massive advantage against opposing 1 hit killers.

okay yeah makes sense, i was running gristlegore so i would attacked first  in combat but prob wont do that again o i can run the cloak. Thank you again 

[CaptKeiv]

Cid, just making sure, you kept saying he heals back up.

Even if he kills 20 ghouls in 1 combat phase, he still gains only 1 wound, not 20.

The way you are talking, if he did gain a wound for each model he killed, of course its OP.

Just making sure your opponent got that right.

 

 

[AverageBoss]

I wonder what you would think of the durability of a buffed stardrake? Effectively a 1+ save. Built in rerolls. Bounces mortals at the attacker when rerolls succeed. Access to healing. Its a really overcosted and totally non-competitive piece. But its certainly got the cabbage beat on durability.

Edited January 23, 2020 by AverageBoss

[Jaskier]

They're absolutely terrifying, but they really should be. I'm fine with the buffs they got, and the giant alpha strike range (24" movement + charge!) makes for a very interesting game. They aren't that difficult to kill though, even if you combine the right traits/artefacts (i.e. Ethereal) - you just need to focus them down, but that should be what you do against most monsters anyway.

[Dankboss]

I will say that you ought to build yourself a standard list that can tackle most situations to a competent degree, based on what you've learned from previous games. In my group, specific list tailoring to your opponent's is massively frowned upon. I like building semi-competitive lists that can handle most problems. If you change your list so much and your opponent notices exactly what's going on, they may not be happy; if they're a regular player that is.

This is because you're only going to be flipping over who has the bad play experience if you build to counter them.

 

[Cid]

8 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

I wonder what you would think of the durability of a buffed stardrake? Effectively a 1+ save. Built in rerolls. Bounces mortals at the attacker when rerolls succeed. Access to healing. Its a really overcosted and totally non-competitive piece. But its certainly got the cabbage beat on durability.

Never had to fight one but the model looks awesome so hopefully one day i get to.  loved the Bill image btw 

[Cid]

3 hours ago, Dankboss said:

I will say that you ought to build yourself a standard list that can tackle most situations to a competent degree, based on what you've learned from previous games. In my group, specific list tailoring to your opponent's is massively frowned upon. I like building semi-competitive lists that can handle most problems. If you change your list so much and your opponent notices exactly what's going on, they may not be happy; if they're a regular player that is.

This is because you're only going to be flipping over who has the bad play experience if you build to counter them.

 

Okay yeah that makes sense, in my group its a bit different, i really want to play more opponents to see different play and armies. As bad as it sounds i feel like  all we do in my group is tailor to the opponent but in a friendly way, are all so competitive and have known each other for more than 10 years so we tend to play the opponent a lot. Its only 5 of us and 4 of us have 2 armies so only seen 9 armies in play and just played the same 4 people so it gets competitive in the best ways possible ( We also all play MTG and DnD together so we all know each others play styles very well and love to exploit weaknesses) 

[Kasper]

4 hours ago, Dankboss said:

I will say that you ought to build yourself a standard list that can tackle most situations to a competent degree, based on what you've learned from previous games. In my group, specific list tailoring to your opponent's is massively frowned upon. I like building semi-competitive lists that can handle most problems. If you change your list so much and your opponent notices exactly what's going on, they may not be happy; if they're a regular player that is.

This is because you're only going to be flipping over who has the bad play experience if you build to counter them.

 

Yeah I'm not a fan of when people pick artefacts, spells and command/mount traits prior to game start just so they can optimize depending on what you have in your army. I always print my list ahead of time. 

[Gwendar]

@Cid as a competitive player, I can only ever tell people to build "all-comers lists" and any amount of list-tailoring is something I abhorrently object to. Things (99% of the time) are done during list building and changing them at the table once you find out what you're playing is typically not allowed; part of why tournaments have lists submitted and they cannot be edited afterwards.

In your case, you have such a small group and you only play each other (and maybe the same 1-2 armies) you get quite used to those armies\players and naturally develop counters to them either in your lists or how you play them; you're just learning from previous games. Specific list tailoring like what @Dankboss is saying is a bit different. 

The same thing can happen in my local meta from time to time.. hell, one dude straight up told me he brought extra stuff to counter my magic-based Skaven list I beat him with previously, which backfired as I used a different list entirely. If you want to tell me beforehand you plan to bring a hard-counter, I'm fine with that as it gives me a challenge\tournament practice. If you just show up doing that however... yeah, I'm not fine with that 😉.

[FatherTurin]

Also, doesn’t the terrorgheist have a mount trait that lets you reroll hits for the bite?  I’ve heard of people using that to fish for 6’s, and if you end up with even 2 6’s, the cabbage is as good as dead (other attacks should be able to clean out the remaining wounds).

And that isn’t even a hard counter, it’s a viable gameplan against any army.