NERF Mega boss on Maw krusha

[Cid]

Played a game last night and in my opinion Mega boss on Maw krusha got buffed way to much. Correct me if i'm wrong but with the  iron clad command trait (Add 1 to save rolls, making him save on twos only )   + mystic shield ( Re roll failed save rolls of one) and artefact of power called Daubing of Mork ( Letting him negate wounds or mortal wounds on rolls of 6)  he is almost impossible to kill. On top of that he has Strength from victory so if he kills any models during combat his wounds characteristic goes up so if you somehow manage to get wounds thru he just more or less heals after fighting and we all know he doesn't lose fights... he is very overpower for only 460 points.  what do you think ? 

[whispersofblood]

32 minutes ago, Cid said:

Played a game last night and in my opinion Mega boss on Maw krusha got buffed way to much. Correct me if i'm wrong but with the  iron clad command trait (Add 1 to save rolls, making him save on twos only )   + mystic shield ( Re roll failed save rolls of one) and artefact of power called Daubing of Mork ( Letting him negate wounds or mortal wounds on rolls of 6)  he is almost impossible to kill. On top of that he has Strength from victory so if he kills any models during combat his wounds characteristic goes up so if you somehow manage to get wounds thru he just more or less heals after fighting and we all know he doesn't lose fights... he is very overpower for only 460 points.  what do you think ? 

He doesn't heal, he gains wounds important distinction. 

[Cid]

Just now, whispersofblood said:

He doesn't heal, he gains wounds important distinction. 

Even better lol

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, Cid said:

Even better lol

Actually not, it means that he tables based on the damage taken not on the wounds remaining. Healing is better than gaining wounds.

[Gwendar]

3 hours ago, Cid said:

Played a game last night and in my opinion Mega boss on Maw krusha got buffed way to much. Correct me if i'm wrong but with the  iron clad command trait (Add 1 to save rolls, making him save on twos only )   + mystic shield ( Re roll failed save rolls of one) and artefact of power called Daubing of Mork ( Letting him negate wounds or mortal wounds on rolls of 6)  he is almost impossible to kill. On top of that he has Strength from victory so if he kills any models during combat his wounds characteristic goes up so if you somehow manage to get wounds thru he just more or less heals after fighting and we all know he doesn't lose fights... he is very overpower for only 460 points.  what do you think ? 

Sounds like you're hitting him with the wrong units or allowing him to hit you first which is a mistake.

Fully buffed and on average:
20 Hammerers? Killing it
20 Hearthguard Berserkers? Killing it
20 Irondrakes? Killing it
6 Stormfiends? Killing it
25 Skryre Acolytes? Killing it
12 Flamers? Killing it

... I could go on. But there's plenty of things that have the capability to 1-shot our beloved cabbage-dragon. Even if the above doesn't kill it, that's only the damage from 1 unit and I'm sure a spell or two tossed at it to take a few off will further guarantee it dies. It's not at all overpowered, but it is strong which is why you're seeing 1-2 taken in nearly every list... but every faction is going to have something like that.

Edited January 20, 2020 by Gwendar

[NauticalSoup]

It's going to depend massively on the army you're playing, but most books have a hammer unit (or combination of units) that can clean up a 15 wound monster. It's about as tough as it ought to be for a 500 point monster-hero. For comparison have you ever had to kill multiple Frostlords on Stonehorns? Considerably more annoying to chew through for a model that's actually cheaper than a Maw-krusha (although they don't hit nearly as hard).

Also I find your title to be juvenile and hyperbolical. Nobody on this forum has any power over what does or doesn't get nerfed, so phrasing it like a demand isn't an especially compelling way to open a thread.

[Scurvydog]

1 hour ago, NauticalSoup said:

Also I find your title to be juvenile and hyperbolical. Nobody on this forum has any power over what does or doesn't get nerfed, so phrasing it like a demand isn't an especially compelling way to open a thread.

This I'm afraid. I fear this was a bad experience for the opponent as well, with what sounds like a lot of salt after having bought a cool model with decent rules and point balancing. He did not even bring any super powerful artifact or anything and many many many other things are just as good.

OP might have a bad army put together, but it sounds more like inexperience and an expectation to push minituares forward and be effective with that.

Mawkrushas are hugely expensive points wise, each wound done to it hurts a lot. It has a huge base and 1" reach, exploit that. With good movement, positioning and screening, you can deny it good targets and punish it, yea if sacrifing a 200 point unit for a charge, but you can then do a powerful counter charge and either kill or cripple it, then that is a good trade in your favor. Think like that and games will swing in your favor. 

Many units are almost who hits first kills, big models are a lot of eggs in one basket. If the Mawkrusha just goes in full speed, all you need is to not give et a really juicy target, then deal with it, as most of the rest of the army will probably be way behind with their 4" move.

[whiskeytango]

Hey, instead of insulting him, lets just meet him where he's at. 

 

@Cid I, unlike others, do kind of think that there shouldn't be a monster running around with a 2+ save, re-rolling 1's. Be thankful he didn't have the ethereal amulet making that 2+ unrendable as well. However, as has been pointed out, no one here on this forum can do anything about that, so we'll go in a different direction for your issue. Lets start with some basics, what army do you play/what did you bring to the battle/what do you have available to you? 

[Caffran101]

20 minutes ago, whiskeytango said:

Hey, instead of insulting him, lets just meet him where he's at. 

 

@Cid I, unlike others, do kind of think that there shouldn't be a monster running around with a 2+ save, re-rolling 1's. Be thankful he didn't have the ethereal amulet making that 2+ unrendable as well. However, as has been pointed out, no one here on this forum can do anything about that, so we'll go in a different direction for your issue. Lets start with some basics, what army do you play/what did you bring to the battle/what do you have available to you? 

you cant use ethereal amulet with it as the trait is a save modifier.

[whiskeytango]

12 minutes ago, Caffran101 said:

you cant use ethereal amulet with it as the trait is a save modifier.

That's a good point and one I wish I'd have realized earlier. 

[Skreech Verminking]

Considering how much the Mawcrusher cost in points I don’t think he is in much of need for a nerv.

But likely said I more of skaven player then that of an Orruk.

Considering that he has a 2+ save rerolling ones ignoring the first part of a rend, I guess you could call him though.

thankfully there are always possibilities, to take less damage against a charge of his and kill him instead.

I don’t know what Faction You’ve plated against your buddy/foe but High rend (if you’re playing skaven you’ll have a few -2 - -3 rend attacks)  or lot’s of mortal wounds dealing which many armies with should have a few unit able to deal them.

a unit of 20 freeguild greats swords or Hammerers, will be able to deal with such a big monster in less time then that big thing needed to charge.

If you’re looking for an artefact that can deal with that monster I always find the rune blade, to the dimensional blade or the blade of judgement a good fit for any hero able to dish out damage.

a combination I’ve been using on my Verminlord Warbringer, is the Brutal fury commandtrait plus the rune blade.

giving you and extra 3 attack on each weapon your hero carries, and the runeblade on his doomglaive.

he may be a beast for literally just a single round combat, but whatever you want him to slay-kill, will definitely die-die,

unless we’re talking about morathi or The big bearded red dwarf.

 

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Considering that he has a 2+ save rerolling ones ignoring the first part of a rend, I guess you could call him though.

You can't get this, the reduce rend by 1 is the Ironsunz artefact which requires you to take a specific command trait. The 2+ save is a command trait.

You get either a 2+ save or reduce rend by 1.

[Dankboss]

A Mawkrusha is a big ball of high stats that is hurled at you and not much else. That makes it one of the easiest models/ strategies to play against, if you have a well balanced army. Deny him his targets and he suddenly isn't worth his points.

[Vasshpit]

I 💚 Maw Krusha. 

[tripchimeras]

3 hours ago, Dankboss said:

A Mawkrusha is a big ball of high stats that is hurled at you and not much else. That makes it one of the easiest models/ strategies to play against, if you have a well balanced army. Deny him his targets and he suddenly isn't worth his points.

Okay, so the Mawkrusha is not OP and prob doesn't need a nerf.  The original poster is being hyperbolic, and is probably new and had a negative play experience.  However, lets also not go too far in the other direction and oversimplify this to make him feel like it should be easy. 

Lets be clear; it is not EASY to deal with a properly played Maw Krusha.  If it was they wouldn't be solid 4-1 bets at tourneys.  It's easy to deal with a maw krusha that is haphazardly and violently thrown at your lines with no regard for strategy, just as a maw krusha appears OP when the opponent does the same against them.  The truth is somewhere in between.  All of the units mentioned in this thread as counters, can indeed 1 hit (or as good as) a maw krusha, but the reverse is also true in almost all of them.  And given the maw krusha's superior speed and flight the maw krusha is only going to be coming in contact with the non shooting infantry varieties of these units for 3 reasons, either A. he charged B. the player made a mistake C. the player was okay losing the maw krusha for a different purpose.  The shooting units listed have the advantage obv, but just as there are ways to counter a maw krusha with hammerers despite the disadvantage, the reverse is true with maw krusha verse shooting (at least against some of the armies, without a faq new tzeench change host is going to be an auto win against most maw krusha armies I would think).

Deny him his targets and you are more then likely also denying yourself something.  Maintaining perfect screens and target denial in MOST armies also means that you are denying yourself aggression and forward progress.  You are also ignoring the rest of the army, and while a Maw Krusha is expensive, there is guaranteed to be other scary stuff in his army which you aren't going to be able to deny as well forever.  It is going to be a complex situation of denials, counters, and sacrifices.  There is nothing simple about the oversimplified strategy you have outlined above.  All it tells me is that either A. you play a hard counter to Maw Krusha builds or B. you haven't been playing very good players using it.  Its not an OP model, but it is a very strong one, and while the Maw Krusha builds are not S class they are certainly A tier.  Lets not treat this guy like he is being totally dumb, especially for a casual player without a hard counter a Maw Krusha is going to present quite the barrier.

Edited January 21, 2020 by tripchimeras

[Dankboss]

Mine was a passing comment on how it's not an unbeatable terror; there was no indication of general experience to be had, so I can assume enough game knowledge since they seemed familiar with its previous incarnation. If I wanted to detail how to beat one using advanced methods, I would have done so. You're coming on a bit strong here.

However, now we're here, we might as well outline the best strategy using what the player has at their disposal. @Cid can you tell us more about your situation and lists?

[tripchimeras]

12 minutes ago, Dankboss said:

Mine was a passing comment on how it's not an unbeatable terror; there was no indication of general experience to be had, so I can assume enough game knowledge since they seemed familiar with its previous incarnation. If I wanted to detail how to beat one using advanced methods, I would have done so. You're coming on a bit strong here.

However, now we're here, we might as well outline the best strategy using what the player has at their disposal. @Cid can you tell us more about your situation and lists?

Didn't mean to come on too strong.  Just seamed like the "That makes it one of the easiest models/ strategies to play against, if you have a well balanced army." was a tad hyperbolic, and since the guy had been hit a little hard overall in the comment section, I thought it was worth making clear that it isn't a picnick and while the advice here is sound, sometimes the nature of forum commentary can make it seem easy when its really not.  I may have put too much emphasis on a single line in your comment, and given that you were indeed just making general observations, I apologize if it was a bit too much on my part.  Was just trying to add some clarity that its not the easiest model to deal with, and while the OP was being a bit hyperbolic, its not unreasonable especially for a casual player, to struggle to deal with it.

Screen and counter is certainly the best generalized advice you can give without knowing specifics, its just often harder to execute then it sounds.

Edited January 21, 2020 by tripchimeras

[Cid]

On 1/20/2020 at 12:05 PM, Malakree said:

Actually not, it means that he tables based on the damage taken not on the wounds remaining. Healing is better than gaining wounds.

Okay so maybe that's what i'm not understanding, Cause he kept healing with the gained wounds so if i got him down to 12 wounds and then killed one of my models he would go up to 13 and so on. I still won the game cause it was objective and i managed to our smart him and distracted Maw Krusha  but from playing him before to now the change was huge.  I definitely understand to stay away , use shooting and mortal wounds but compared to other models that cost about the same he just seems nuts now. But i do thank you for response without attacking me for simply opening a question cause i was  confused. 

[Cid]

On 1/20/2020 at 1:51 PM, Gwendar said:

Sounds like you're hitting him with the wrong units or allowing him to hit you first which is a mistake.

Fully buffed and on average:
20 Hammerers? Killing it
20 Hearthguard Berserkers? Killing it
20 Irondrakes? Killing it
6 Stormfiends? Killing it
25 Skryre Acolytes? Killing it
12 Flamers? Killing it

... I could go on. But there's plenty of things that have the capability to 1-shot our beloved cabbage-dragon. Even if the above doesn't kill it, that's only the damage from 1 unit and I'm sure a spell or two tossed at it to take a few off will further guarantee it dies. It's not at all overpowered, but it is strong which is why you're seeing 1-2 taken in nearly every list... but every faction is going to have something like that.

Yeah i was using the wrong army for sure but i've played against them before (irenjawz) as well as other armies, yeah i'm pretty new to it all only have two 2500 point armies and only played against a 5 different other armies but i have watched  games online and in my opinion he seems super good for 460 compared to other bosses. but this is why i opened the conversation, to see if i was overseeing something. 

thank you for the advice!

[Cid]

On 1/20/2020 at 2:10 PM, NauticalSoup said:

It's going to depend massively on the army you're playing, but most books have a hammer unit (or combination of units) that can clean up a 15 wound monster. It's about as tough as it ought to be for a 500 point monster-hero. For comparison have you ever had to kill multiple Frostlords on Stonehorns? Considerably more annoying to chew through for a model that's actually cheaper than a Maw-krusha (although they don't hit nearly as hard).

Also I find your title to be juvenile and hyperbolical. Nobody on this forum has any power over what does or doesn't get nerfed, so phrasing it like a demand isn't an especially compelling way to open a thread.

Sr. NauticalSoup i thank you for the advice. unfortunately i have not had the pleasure to fight off any frostlords or stonehorns  but rest assure that when i do, if i believe them to be over powered i will make a similar title and try to open conversation with peers to further my growth in this great game. 

Furthermore, i believe you judging the title of my thread is signs of depression and entitlement. Titles are meant to be grasping and meat to catch peoples attention. Thank you for calling it hyperbolic, my professors would be proud. I never meant to hurt anyone feeling, its a game  and i wanted to provoke thought. Which bring me to the next point thank you again for saying it was juvenile  on a warhammer thread page , i got a big laugh out of it. Thank you sr, NauticalSouo you have made my day.

Now i will return the favor, cheer up, and don't take a GAMES threads title so personal and hard, go play a game, relax. If your feelings are hurt or think its too demanding for you don't click it  and get triggered,  that  was not my intention. didn't even cross my mind thb. 

p.s i know no one has the power to change the war scroll of a boss, its about trying to learn more and i did so i guess i got what i wanted. 

[Cid]

On 1/20/2020 at 3:56 PM, Scurvydog said:

This I'm afraid. I fear this was a bad experience for the opponent as well, with what sounds like a lot of salt after having bought a cool model with decent rules and point balancing. He did not even bring any super powerful artifact or anything and many many many other things are just as good.

OP might have a bad army put together, but it sounds more like inexperience and an expectation to push minituares forward and be effective with that.

Mawkrushas are hugely expensive points wise, each wound done to it hurts a lot. It has a huge base and 1" reach, exploit that. With good movement, positioning and screening, you can deny it good targets and punish it, yea if sacrifing a 200 point unit for a charge, but you can then do a powerful counter charge and either kill or cripple it, then that is a good trade in your favor. Think like that and games will swing in your favor. 

Many units are almost who hits first kills, big models are a lot of eggs in one basket. If the Mawkrusha just goes in full speed, all you need is to not give et a really juicy target, then deal with it, as most of the rest of the army will probably be way behind with their 4" move.

That's funny cause i won the game so no salt, just genuinely trying to improve the game and my knowledge. but ey f it makes you feel good to assume and throw shade then fk it w.e works for you. 

The result of my title is knowledge of how titles work.  but nice try bud 

[Cid]

On 1/20/2020 at 5:03 PM, whiskeytango said:

Hey, instead of insulting him, lets just meet him where he's at. 

 

@Cid I, unlike others, do kind of think that there shouldn't be a monster running around with a 2+ save, re-rolling 1's. Be thankful he didn't have the ethereal amulet making that 2+ unrendable as well. However, as has been pointed out, no one here on this forum can do anything about that, so we'll go in a different direction for your issue. Lets start with some basics, what army do you play/what did you bring to the battle/what do you have available to you? 

I highly appreciate you, i still think he is over powered for 460 but yeah i must change up my army, was running a flesh eater court army with lots of ghouls... so that's where i messed up. it won me the game in the end cause i was able to box him out and hold the objectives but saw his devastating power everytime i got one or two wounds he would tear thru my people and heal back up. My other army is a sylvaneth one so next time ill run them with as much range as i can to shoot him down maybe that will work. unfortunately i dont have much stuff that does mortal wounds too easy. but will buy more models to increase chance. For example maybe max out my flayers and just yell at him n then hope to get 6's on hit rolls. lol 

[Cid]

On 1/21/2020 at 6:00 AM, Skreech Verminking said:

Considering how much the Mawcrusher cost in points I don’t think he is in much of need for a nerv.

But likely said I more of skaven player then that of an Orruk.

Considering that he has a 2+ save rerolling ones ignoring the first part of a rend, I guess you could call him though.

thankfully there are always possibilities, to take less damage against a charge of his and kill him instead.

I don’t know what Faction You’ve plated against your buddy/foe but High rend (if you’re playing skaven you’ll have a few -2 - -3 rend attacks)  or lot’s of mortal wounds dealing which many armies with should have a few unit able to deal them.

a unit of 20 freeguild greats swords or Hammerers, will be able to deal with such a big monster in less time then that big thing needed to charge.

If you’re looking for an artefact that can deal with that monster I always find the rune blade, to the dimensional blade or the blade of judgement a good fit for any hero able to dish out damage.

a combination I’ve been using on my Verminlord Warbringer, is the Brutal fury commandtrait plus the rune blade.

giving you and extra 3 attack on each weapon your hero carries, and the runeblade on his doomglaive.

he may be a beast for literally just a single round combat, but whatever you want him to slay-kill, will definitely die-die,

unless we’re talking about morathi or The big bearded red dwarf.

 

Hey thank you for that, it really helped. I was running a flesh eater court army so not the best due to low rend and not much stuff that does mortal wounds easy.  Still won the game cause i outsmarted my buddy but if it wasn't for objective points he would of crushed me lol . I will however run my sylvaneth next time with the 6 archer hunters i own and will be using the rune sword, again thank you for advice i'm glad i went on here to ask what people thought. 

[TALegion]

As FEC, I think your best option is a lord on a terrorgeist vs. the maw krusha (gristlegore, too, if you can). If you manage to get a single 6, you'll remove over a third of his wounds with that single hit -  not to mention all of your other damage. If you manage to hit him first  it will decay the krusha's fist attacks, which are the biggest source of rend and damage from the model. And if you're gristlegore, you'll get to hit him back even if he kills your unit in combat.

Unless the maw krusha specifically builds to resist mortal wounds (e.g. brings Ignax Scales as an artefact), maw krushas have no natural resistance to mortals at all. Many people will build their cabbage to negate/lessen rend (e.g. Ethereal Amulet or Ironsun's Sunblessed Armor), so mortals will normally be the big weakness.

 

Also, if you're dealing with a maw krusha and don't believe that you have the tools to kill it easily, sometimes your best is to just give yourself more time. Retreating in your turn after the maw krusha charges you negates him from fighting during your turn AND prevents him fighting in his next hero phase with Mighty Destroyers. That's 2 fewer rounds where the cabbage gets to do damage just by disengaging. Even if you can't kill it easily, you have a couple ways to lessen its impact over the course of the game.

[Cid]

On 1/21/2020 at 11:41 AM, tripchimeras said:

Okay, so the Mawkrusha is not OP and prob doesn't need a nerf.  The original poster is being hyperbolic, and is probably new and had a negative play experience.  However, lets also not go too far in the other direction and oversimplify this to make him feel like it should be easy. 

Lets be clear; it is not EASY to deal with a properly played Maw Krusha.  If it was they wouldn't be solid 4-1 bets at tourneys.  It's easy to deal with a maw krusha that is haphazardly and violently thrown at your lines with no regard for strategy, just as a maw krusha appears OP when the opponent does the same against them.  The truth is somewhere in between.  All of the units mentioned in this thread as counters, can indeed 1 hit (or as good as) a maw krusha, but the reverse is also true in almost all of them.  And given the maw krusha's superior speed and flight the maw krusha is only going to be coming in contact with the non shooting infantry varieties of these units for 3 reasons, either A. he charged B. the player made a mistake C. the player was okay losing the maw krusha for a different purpose.  The shooting units listed have the advantage obv, but just as there are ways to counter a maw krusha with hammerers despite the disadvantage, the reverse is true with maw krusha verse shooting (at least against some of the armies, without a faq new tzeench change host is going to be an auto win against most maw krusha armies I would think).

Deny him his targets and you are more then likely also denying yourself something.  Maintaining perfect screens and target denial in MOST armies also means that you are denying yourself aggression and forward progress.  You are also ignoring the rest of the army, and while a Maw Krusha is expensive, there is guaranteed to be other scary stuff in his army which you aren't going to be able to deny as well forever.  It is going to be a complex situation of denials, counters, and sacrifices.  There is nothing simple about the oversimplified strategy you have outlined above.  All it tells me is that either A. you play a hard counter to Maw Krusha builds or B. you haven't been playing very good players using it.  Its not an OP model, but it is a very strong one, and while the Maw Krusha builds are not S class they are certainly A tier.  Lets not treat this guy like he is being totally dumb, especially for a casual player without a hard counter a Maw Krusha is going to present quite the barrier.

The title was meant to be hyperbolic, the post itself is very detailed and just stated facts about his buffs, i clearly said it was my opinion that he needs to be nerfed but left up to discussion cause i wanted to know other opinions or if we (my buddy and i ) were doing something wrong. I do thank you for the knowledge for it has helped great a amount.  And yes i am a relative new player only two 2500 point armies and only play against 5 other different armies in my circle of friends, however i was not mad or had a bad experience at all , if anything it was a great game to the last round but its always good to be clear about it all so next games are as smooth as possible.