GW's Black Library Sales are slumping slightly. (A discussion)

[Kirjava13]

8 minutes ago, Enoby said:

I don't think anyone buys a Warhammer book expecting anything revolutionary - I think a lot of people just want to see their guys do something. 

Herein lies, I think, one of Black Library's greatest weaknesses: their opportunities for growth are minimal. As you say, people have expectations about Warhammer books by this point: low-brow, fantasy or sci-fi expansions on background to a tabletop game. It's tricky for them to break out of the little economy they've created, and more books about how Hero McHeroman fought, fought some more, rested a bit and then fought again aren't going to change that. The move into horror is an interesting one that might bear fruit; I wonder how many BL novels have dared to venture into (whisper it) romance territory?

[Overread]

I have to admit I do actually like the adventure/pulpy sense that GW is giving.  I think that adventuring style books are currently on the short end - everyone is trying to write epic GRRM style sagas and such. Now don't get me wrong, I love a massive epic saga too. Just that sometimes its nice to have a less complex, 50 character, 10 book monster to read. 

I think some of the depth we want form the books in terms of lore and stories is getting there, but requires a more matured IP. I think that many of us expected GW to actually work on that more than they have. I also think that the high magic system they've got confuses readers. With Old World you could effortless imagine most human settlements using the standard "Faux Medieval Fantasy" tropes heavily present in most fantasy. So you could easily see farmers reaping corn with scytles; cattle going to market; horses pulling wagons and ploughing fields. 

With AoS its much harder. In theory free-cities are running around with full steampunk mechs (harder to envision because their actual tabletop army features NOTHING like any mechs - in fact far as I can tell beyond the odd owl sitting on a KO shoulder, there really aren't any mechs in the setting yet - the steam tank is supposed t obe far more ornate and tech heavy than it currently appears as). WE also don't really know what they eat; nor what farms the fields or transports. We get a sense that any long distance and realmgate transport is done by the KO; but on the ground there's beasts that get mentioned that we don't know quite what they look like all the time; we don't realy know if there are cows or cattle or sheep. Heck its got to the point many were arguing that GW wasn't even going to have horses (even though multiple factions still have them) 

 

I guess what I'm saying is that with the Old World stuff there was a very immediate and instant relation base that you could slip in mentally which added its own depth without the writer having to do anything but leave prompts for your imagination to fill in the gaps. They can describe you passing through open fields and BOOM you've got a mental image. With AoS its not as easy - each realm is different each race is different - if they say you're running through the farming fields you don't even really know what they might be growing in them! Lets alone how - are those Free Cities using cattle and cart or steam powered combine harvesters?! 

[Austin]

1 hour ago, RuneBrush said:

I've just read through the half year report and going to say that my gut feeling is that is pretty click-baity on Bolter and Chainsword's behalf.  Year on year sales for Black Library are down by ~6% (roughly £71k), although this is going in the "wrong" direction, I don't think that this is cause for concern.  It's certainly not indicative of the sky is falling!

I think what will be more telling will be the full year report when we see if December improved sales at all.

I posted that article in the Black Library section, repost from where I found it in the News section.

Certainly not the intent to be click-baity.  I do however think you are wrong about 6% down being not much of a cause for concern for two reasons.  It is the second consecutive report with negative numbers, and in the business world that's a number that would likely result in being canned without a pretty good explanation WHEN you combine it with the fact that the models and rest of the company is soaring.

[Whitefang]

1 minute ago, xking said:

city of Secrets also has a sequel, just can't remember what it is. 

Silver Shards

[Enoby]

5 minutes ago, xking said:

Stormcast killing Khorne dudes is not hard, when they are trained specifically to fight chaos and the psychopathic cannibal Khorne dudes are just throwing themselves on the blades. I loved the realmgate Wars stuff however, but maybe you should try some of the later stuff.

Here are some recommendations for you, try reading. "City of Secrets" "Eight Lamentations: Spear of Shadows" "soul wars" "Court of the Blind King" . city of Secrets also has a sequel, just can't remember what it is. 

I get that it's not hard, but it sure is boring to read about - same as I wouldn't want to read a book about Khorne dudes just killing peasants.

I've read City of Secrets, liked it but wasn't a fan of the end of it - without many spoilers, I'd prefer it kept the human vs the impossible element.

I've considered the other ones, and may give them a read. Currently trying to listen to Darkly Dreaming, but the Black Library download isn't working properly for me.

[Whitefang]

3 minutes ago, Enoby said:

I'd prefer it kept the human vs the impossible element.

Have you tried dark harvest?

[shinros]

2 minutes ago, Whitefang said:

Have you tried dark harvest?

Yup as whitefang said here I think you should give dark harvest a read.

[Baron Klatz]

Also read "Red Hour", "Acts of Sacrifice" and "Path to Glory" for humans vs horrifying odds. Also the audio drama and continuation of Eight Lamentations "War Claw" is a good listen. Surprisingly gets dark (I guess the writer wanted to address how spear of shadow was too light on bloodshed).

 

I'll echo what's been said about Realmgate Wars, not their strongest work yet pretty entertaining while helping to flesh out the realms and helped the writers get a stronger footing for the setting.

I find people who had problems with it and wrote the novels off I only had to convince to read the recent works from 2017 forward to bring them around on the writing and setting as a whole.

[JPjr]

@Kirjava13 Well they are launching a Warhammer Crime imprint this year, so maybe Romance is lined up for 2021. I think a few bodice rippers in the Mortal Realms could be fun.

Anyway in general BL terms i do feel for the authors a bit as they’re stuck between a rock and hard place really. Over the last year I’ve read a surprising, for me anyway, number of BL books and on the whole they’ve been a hell of a lot better than I expected going in but they’re still obviously often hamstrung in places by essentially writing books that have to shoehorn direct references in to what is basically a range of toys.

I can imagine how frustrating it can be as for all their many inherent problems both 40K and AoS are, when you dig into them, remarkably interesting backdrops that should in theory allow you to tell some fascinating, nuanced stories that can contain both social, cultural and political themes incredibly relevant to today whether it’s about climate change, refugees, religious intolerance, political upheaval, disinformation, you name it the setting is made for all the above.

Unfortunately, I suspect, a lot of the people who would enjoy those more nuanced stories just wouldn’t go near a Warhammer book with a ten foot pole, whilst at least a significant number of people who are more inclined to possibly fall into the ‘keep politics (I don’t agree with) out of my hobby (that is based upon political themes)’ reactionary mob.

I’m still thinking about books like ‘Circe’ (by Madeleine Miller) & ‘Folk’ (by Zoe Gilbert) long after I finished them last year (& seriously read Circe it is an astonishing book that I’ve since bought for about 5 other people) whereas whilst most of the BL books are genuinely great page turners, it’s rare I don’t rattle through one in just a day or 2, they rarely linger in the mind much after the books put down.

Now that in itself is no bad thing, a good fun read is no small thing in itself but I do find myself wanting to see these vast universes used to tell more involved stories that challenge us more and use these worlds to cloak important truths rather than just big battles and the like (then again I suspect most writers would hold those back for their own franchise-free work).

Warhammer Horror does feel like a start, though I have my reservations. So far the two anthologies have felt a little just like ordinary WH stories but with the nihilism dialled up, essentially here’s a normal story but at the end EVERYONE DIES AND HAS THEIR SOUL EATEN. 

it’s novel at first but 15 or however many stories in a row like that becomes tiring. Saying that once I finish my current book (‘The Rise & Fall of D.O.D.O’ if you’re curious/nosey) I’ve got ‘Dark Harvest’ lined up, so hopefully the longer format should provide more interesting avenues to explore, plus Josh is of course one of their best writers at the moment anyway.

hopefully as this line develops it will start to come into its own and give authors scope to take on smaller scale stories. Similarly WH Crime could be an interesting space to get away from the more obvious big battle books tied in to the models.

on top of that as everyone else has pointed out the websites a bit (lot) of a mess, they could integrate the way the books are sold alongside relevant models/games better and whilst as someone who works in the creative industries myself I heartily applaud their tendency to not engage in a race to the bottom, price wise, the books could be priced a lot keener, or bundled better, there is certainly scope for them to be marketed to people outside the hobby better but maybe the people doing that job know much better than I how hard that really is.

Also on a tangent just in terms of the current state of the market interestingly I’ve noticed quite a few BL authors (& indeed staff) start to appear at another Nottingham based fantasy publisher Aconyte Books, part of Asmodee Games and set up by former BL chief Marc Gascoigne, worth keeping an eye on what’s going on there if you’re not already. 

Edited January 16, 2020 by JPjr

[JPjr]

truly of all the mysteries of the reforging process the big one remains how much time did Sigmar devote to designing enhanced Stormcast genitalia.

[Clan's Cynic]

They need more Peter Fehervari's and less Bolter ******.

Considering the vastly differing quality between authors and how it's often the weaker ones who get pushed on their limited marketing, I can't say I'm too surprised. 

Edited January 16, 2020 by Clan's Cynic

[Galas]

Some of the best warhammer books I have read where the least warhammer ones.

 

A murder in mariemburg for example is more of a detective fiction novel and it was great. Riders of Death was nearly a history book than a warhammer one (But that one was much more centered around war). 

[Silchas_Ruin]

2 hours ago, Enoby said:

Personally, I really did try to get into AoS Black Library books, but as others have said they come across as very pulpy. I would find myself sighing when a fight scene came up - it always felt the authors were struggling to put something interesting in and so just had some fighting in there. The Realmgate wars were, on the whole, very unenjoyable for me - too many Stormcast making mince meat of Khorne over and over again, with very little depth. 

That said, maybe that's what people want out of BL? I don't think anyone buys a Warhammer book expecting anything revolutionary - I think a lot of people just want to see their guys do something. 

I think most people agree the Realmgate Wars is a really bad place to start reading AoS. Personaly I gave up on them after a couple of books. After a break people startet talking about books they liked, like Nagash the Undying king or Spear of Shadows. Its still BL and its to a degree personal taste which authors you like, but much better than Realmgate Wars.

[chord]

I really enjoyed the Realmgate Wars books and the way it tied into the campaign books. I could read the novel and then read/play the various battles.

Really have not enjoyed other non-realmgate books that much.   I think they need to go back to tying the novels to campaigns. That would get me back into buying the novels.

 

[Forrix]

I have tried getting into AoS books and have ran into 3 problems.

1.) Here in the US at least, Black Library books have gotten more expensive. All of the new books get released in this quasi hardback fashion and are $16 compared to the usual 8ish for a regular soft back.

2.) They're hard to find. I've seen them at my GW store but I don't go there often (there's a FLGS, I usually go to) and the selection at the Barnes and Noble next to my house is lacking and are usually the aforementioned $16 variety. I've tried getting them on audible too since I've got free credits but there doesn't seem to be much. I did find the Silver Shard novel on there though and liked it.

3.) Kinda a dead horse but yeah, not a fan of the realmgate wars and Stormcast focus. Which means most of the early AoS books are a no go for me. City of Secrets and Soul Wars (better(ish) written Stormcast and the Nighthaunt parts were really good) were the first AoS novels I found that I thought were pretty good.

[hughwyeth]

I think marketing may be a big issue- Spear of Shadows was great but GW have cancelled it. Written by their best (or at least one of their best) authors, with a good variety of characters and an easy set of sequels, but didn't sell so they cancelled them. It was good enough to be a mainstream book, but don't think they do any marketing for it. Really dissapointing really! Tainted heart was also great with a different story to what you normally hear. Glad to hear Dark Harvest and Requiem Infernal are good- both on my bookshelf to read.

I think the nearest parralel for BL is the D&D novels- like Drizzt. I've read about 12 of the Drizzt books- they're not incredibly written, but they're great fun. I think some BL is better written than D&D stuff but they're at least as fun. Drizzt books consistently went on the NYT lists (as did some HH books) but I'm pretty sure WOTC advertise those books and promote them. 

[Icegoat]

So people are saying dark harvest is a great read. Real shame that cities of sigmar seem to be the go to faction for all aos fiction now and a real shame the army is almost non existent in terms of support from games workshop. Can't even buy a model of a priest of sigmar, or a witch hunter or any hammer weiliding sigmar human now. They are killing there own lore by gutting the model lines. 

[Forrix]

1 minute ago, Icegoat said:

Can't even buy a model of a priest of sigmar, or a witch hunter or any hammer weiliding sigmar human now.

I definitely agree that it is a major missed opportunity not to have the Order of Azyr represented on table top (or new models/a main faction for regular humans but that's kinda a tangent). I think that the success of Cities of Secrets took them off guard though. They seem to have taken note of it so hopefully we get a proper Order of Azyr/Devoted of Sigmar battletome in the next year or two. I know there's a major delay between an idea being conceived and new models actually released.

[TMS]

Like others I've got trouble getting into the ungroundedness of the mortal realms in the AoS novels. Contrast with WFB stories (Ulrika and Von Carstein trilogy for me, specifically) where I know the world they describe and I can follow along on a map as they travel between locations, with more bonus points for letting me imagine what my own TT characters are up to in the vicinity at the time of the novels' happenings.

I hope that the realms will eventually create the same kind of familiarity for me as the old world has, although I'm biased with a long history of WFB behind me. The disparity has taught me that the fluff is more important to me than I thought it was.

[Icegoat]

3 minutes ago, TMS said:

 

Agreed on the maps yes the mortal realms are vast but why can't there just be a map of the local area the story you are reading is taking place in?  Another problem that is a foundation of the setting though. It's so big nothing really matters. A city of millions killed there, a billion chaos warriors destroyed over here, what does it matter in the epic scale of the mortal realms? Very little. 

The best fluff and lore GW ever did was the end times books. They were amazing. Right up until the entire world collapsed and was destroyed. Oh well...

[hughwyeth]

43 minutes ago, Icegoat said:

So people are saying dark harvest is a great read. Real shame that cities of sigmar seem to be the go to faction for all aos fiction now and a real shame the army is almost non existent in terms of support from games workshop. Can't even buy a model of a priest of sigmar, or a witch hunter or any hammer weiliding sigmar human now. They are killing there own lore by gutting the model lines. 

It's the go to faction because it's the only relatable faction. Immortals aren't relatable. They've definitely improved with some recent SCE books- Soul Wars gives them some character, but ultimately, they live forever and wear God armour. It's hard for us to relate. 

An Order of Azyr battletome would be amazing. Perhaps not a battletome considering there would be 1-3 models- but maybe a White Dwarf job or something for the new campaign books they're doing?

[Beastmaster]

Maybe we have to face the fact that the AoS fluff works as a background for a miniature game, but not so well for relatable book stories (or RPGs, for that matter)?

At least a possibility. Not everything is good for everything.

Edited January 16, 2020 by Beastmaster

[hughwyeth]

2 minutes ago, Beastmaster said:

Maybe we have to face the fact that the AoS fluff works as a background for a miniature game, but not so well for relatable book stories (or RPGs, for that matter)?

At least a possibility. Not everything is good for everything.

Honestly I think it's a fantastic background. The realms are a nice original idea that make a lot of things possible narrative-wise. Azyr and Mallus are incredible ideas- the descriptions of Mallus in Soul Wars are incredible. 

I think the issue is concentrating on SCE rather than anything else. In the Old World, the protagonists were elves, dwarfs and humans. They are comfortable tropes that allow us easy access to the fantasy setting. 

[RuneBrush]

5 hours ago, Austin said:

I posted that article in the Black Library section, repost from where I found it in the News section.

Certainly not the intent to be click-baity.  I do however think you are wrong about 6% down being not much of a cause for concern for two reasons.  It is the second consecutive report with negative numbers, and in the business world that's a number that would likely result in being canned without a pretty good explanation WHEN you combine it with the fact that the models and rest of the company is soaring.

Looks like I was a bit vague when I did my post (that'll teach me for doing it quickly).  Basically it was me trying to say that a drop in sales isn't a reason for alarm for us as consumers.

To explain why I'm saying that, here is my main thinking.  Now as a disclaimer I'm not some kind of business guru - I have a bit of business background (and in fact some publishing background too), but that's not to say I'm any more knowledgeable than other people!

First off we're all looking at this report under the assumption that BL published an identical number of books in the second half of 2019 as they did to 2018, if they published 6% less books then the distributor sale drop could easily be explained.  This may not be the case, but the fact this wasn't mentioned in the summary from Kevin Rountree suggests to me that he's doesn't feel there's a big enough issue (yet) to raise it as a concern.

As you say, negative numbers will get any competent business worried and looking at making radical changes - however there aren't any negative numbers in the report.  To all intent and purposes BL is still a profitable part of the business, just distributor sales are a little down in comparison to last year.  I've just looked at the annual reports for the last 4 years and each year there's been a small increase in distributor sales for BL each year - 1776 -> 2296 -> 2321 -> 2423.  I cannot see any company cutting off part of the company that reliably has two million pounds worth of sales because of a £70k drop at the half way point.

Reports like this are always interesting because everyone sees figures in a slightly different way.  I think without more information on distributor sales, it's really difficult to see if there is a genuine downturn or if it's explainable in some other way - e.g. the last Horus Heresy series novel being published.

It's good to raise things like this and it's a great thread to see what people would like from AoS novels going forward!  I do wonder if the AoS RPG could help to inspire more novels too.

[HollowHills]

So I've got an MA in literature, used to write a bit and am very much an avid reader (maybe more audio books at the moment). Here is my view on black library. 

Bear in mind I've only read one black library novel (the court of the blind King), part of one black library compilation and the malign portents stories. 

Basically the stories are packed with stereotypes and clichés. At no point do they ever subvert my expectations and I can't remember the name of the characters because they just fall into such basic archetypes. 

The court of the blind king took a possibly really cool concept and did nothing with it. Instead of traumatised elves doomed to survive by destroying the very life force of others we got generic fantasy snooty court drama. 

The plot is like a bad mash up between Hamlet and Macbeth with random pulp stories thrown in. People die, there are big battles and schemes blah blah it doesn't matter because you don't care about any of the characters. They have no real personalities and the events of the story don't change them at all. There is no heroes journey because the hero is the exact same person at the end except he has more stuff. There has been no transformation, no emotional advancement, no learning. 

I can think of a million things that could have been more interesting than what we got. 

1) What's it like living with the legacy of slaanesh? Do you have nightmares? Are you afraid to connect emotionally? Do you secretly long for pleasure yet also fear it? How do these things impact the society in which you live? Is it something the protagonist needs to deal with? How will s/he overcome it?

2) what's it like being true souled vs being nemarti? Have you seen loved ones die due to withering souls? Are you afraid of bearing half soul children and losing them? Do the nemarti repulse you? If a nemarti, do you resent your masters or see them as gods and saviours? Do you have memories of another half remembered life? 

3) what kind of society would you have? Do they hate their creator for turning against them? Do they live in fear of his wrath? Are they secular and democratic? What moral norms are there and how did these come about? Are there dissenting voices? 

You start asking questions like this and you start being able to imagine what your characters might think and feel at the start of your story. Then you ask what outside forces might challenge that status quo and you think how your characters might react. Are there any consequences of those reactions? Are there conflicts? 

Black library has none of this stuff. It's just an endless stream of "and then and then and then". 

And then he fought nurgle and then he fought the sylvaneth and then he fought a giant shark. 

It's childlike.