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Forrix

The heavy hand of GW balancing returns...

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For those that haven't read the STD errata that came out today the Nurgle bloated blessings command ability got nerfed into the ground. I won't claim that its original incarnation wasn't over the top but I'm shocked at how fast and how hard they hit it compared to other overpowered things this year. With FEC, Gristlegore got a slight but significant change in the Summer FAQ despite it wrecking the tournament for months and its strength being apparent at release. Slaanesh again lasted until the next FAQ and even then got a relatively mild nerf. Petrifix Elite has yet to be touched. Why STD? Why this particular command ability? Is this a sign of GW changing design philosophies again?

Edited by Forrix
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As a follower of the one true god, tzeentch, I don't even read the nurgle rules in fear of being turned into a spawn so I don't know how hard the nerf actually was but regarding your second point - that this nerf came way quicker and more fierce than other changes - I guess it's up to the people who either wrote it or what gets noticed inhouse quickly. I think it's safe to assume that StD get a lot of play (they were the best selling faction WHFB after all). Or it's divine intervention by big ol' T himself. GJ, mighty Tzeentch, next time give us the great rules instead. ;)

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From what I can tell, it has been changed to melee only and now you can't do it multiple times for ridiculous amounts of damage.  It is still a powerful ability.  I don't see the problem.  

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6 minutes ago, Aelfric said:

From what I can tell, it has been changed to melee only and now you can't do it multiple times for ridiculous amounts of damage.  It is still a powerful ability.  I don't see the problem.  

Yeah but now you're returning ONE D3 MW don't matter how many 6s your opponent has.

That makes him far worse

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It would be OK in the new form if it didn't cost a cp, now you're basically paying 1 cp to do 1 or 2d3 mortals. So it's basically gone from incredible to terrible. 

I'm not really sure what more they could have done other than rewrite the ability entirely though.

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5 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

I'm not really sure what more they could have done other than rewrite the ability entirely though.

I would have made it so they couldn't stack so no multiple d3 mortal wounds per 6 and, if necessary, just 1 mortal wound per 6. The point being to keep it as a good command ability that really punishes units that pump out high volumes of attacks while loosing effectiveness against units that rely on a low volume of high quality attacks..

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3 minutes ago, Maier666 said:

Yeah but now you're returning ONE D3 MW don't matter how many 6s your opponent has.

That makes him far worse

I see what you mean - the use of the word "any" rather than "each".  Yes, it does seem to be a big pendulum swing.  I expected the melee only and one use only, but was still expecting it to work on each unmodified 6.   It does make it a lot weaker and far more situational.

It does seem harsh.  

 

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2 minutes ago, Forrix said:

I would have made it so they couldn't stack so no multiple d3 mortal wounds per 6 and, if necessary, just 1 mortal wound per 6. The point being to keep it as a good command ability that really punishes units that pump out high volumes of attacks while loosing effectiveness against units that rely on a low volume of high quality attacks..

Given there are quite a few abilities that deal a mortal on a roll of 6 and you roll 1 dice per model in the unit I think this would have worked. Reduce it to 1 mortal rather than d3 and it can only be used on a unit once per turn. 

Makes it really good vs hordes but ****** against most elite units and heroes. 

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It was obviously not working as intending originally. Personally I would have changed it to only be usable on itself but as originally written. So it can have a big effect, but can also be played against - they could choose not to charge the DP, or not to pile in and ultimately a single daemon prince isn't winning a game on its own if left unscathed for a turn. Would have been a more interesting change.

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My question is why isn't the darkfire daemonrift changed to prevent it from doing Kroak-levels of damage. That thing destroys entire armies right now.

I do think it's a shame they brought the Nurgle CA down so much, it still working on shooting as well would've made it more useful yet fair.

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While the khaos sorcererlord cost 110 and  and not the 200 that must cost with that skill and spell i dont see point in crying for std players

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This is just another example of GW's scattershot half-assed attempts to rolling out balance, rather than anything thorough and methodical.  It's like if the right guy at the right time at GW for some reason notices something they will push out an update, otherwise it will be left untouched as they have no actual process for complete review.

12 hours ago, HollowHills said:

It would be OK in the new form if it didn't cost a cp, now you're basically paying 1 cp to do 1 or 2d3 mortals. So it's basically gone from incredible to terrible. 

I'm not really sure what more they could have done other than rewrite the ability entirely though.

Agreed that it's very whatever, but just noting that for example Sylvaneth has an allegiance command ability that is almost the same worse in terms of power:

Command Ability: Stand Firm: Pick one enemy unit that charges within 1", roll a dice. On 2+ they get D3 mortals

Edited by Zanzou
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4 hours ago, Forrix said:

Why STD? Why this particular command ability?

My belief is that this is because the DP of nurgle is an older model. If something is going to be good I think GW opts for models which they can produce and sell in volume.

They most likely did not intend the original ability to be meta defining. Once they found out it would have an large impact they needed to decide what to do with it.  Nerfing an old model to the ground was the easiest solution.

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26 minutes ago, svnvaldez said:

My belief is that this is because the DP of nurgle is an older model. If something is going to be good I think GW opts for models which they can produce and sell in volume.

They most likely did not intend the original ability to be meta defining. Once they found out it would have an large impact they needed to decide what to do with it.  Nerfing an old model to the ground was the easiest solution.

I don’t think it’s this. The Daemon Prince of Nurgle scroll isn’t separate from the new plastic model in the AoS app anymore.

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What a kind of ridiculous nerf. I expected melee only and non-stacking to bring it in line but the nerf made it not even worth command points I guess my local meta will all have to flip to khorne STD from the nurgle flavor I have seen recently.

Edited by TheCovenLord
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Its one ability, on one model, not the entire army. Get off the cross, we need the wood.

Edited by Fairbanks
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It is not about balance, it is being tweaked to better reflect initial intention. It clearly was not meant to be used on a large units and have your opponent take millions of mortal wounds. It wasn't fun and was clearly not the point.

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3 hours ago, Sedraxis said:

My question is why isn't the darkfire daemonrift changed to prevent it from doing Kroak-levels of damage. That thing destroys entire armies right now.

Does it though?

I can see in a theoretical way it could generate a lot of damage, but I don't see those conditions happening commonly on the table.  I am not the biggest fan of Wizards, so I only run 2-3 most of the time and generally they not all huddled together.  If my opponent does run a bunch of Wizards and allows them to huddle together like WizCon is happening knowing full well I paid the points for Darkfire Daemonrift and will probably try and cast it in their general direction, I kinda think they got what they deserved. 

Realistically, I am only seeing this endless spell doing about d3+3 to 4 Mortal Wounds and not for the entire game.  Maybe a single round before its damage drops off again.  Against my own Slaves to Darkness army that kind a damage can only out right kill only one of my units: the Sorcerer Lord.  It would it probably barely scratch my Batteline units.  Granted, almost all of them have 5+ MW saves...

I think a player could build a skew list to really maximize the Darkfire Daemonrift.  However, I think becoming a skew list, doing so would have several obvious shortcomings.  It could be just me and the fact I am pretty new and not particularly creative in my army list building.  So I am not going to argue too strongly that it is fine.  More that I don't see all that scary unit deleting of potential from it at this point without a lot of effort on the caster's side and/or a lot of mistakes on the opposing side.

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The nerf to the Nurgle DP command ability wasn't heavy handed; it was appropriate (and I say this as someone who uses a Nurgle DP). It may seem heavy handed because other nerfs are too light or miss the point (Slaanesh Depravity or Hearthguard Berzerkers, for example) or even more frequently simply do not occur at all (a whole swathe of units & mechanics across the top third of armies).

I have reached a point where I feel that not only does GW not prioritize balance, they do not even know what it is.

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3 hours ago, Zanzou said:

they have no actual process for complete review.

Facts? Sources? 

 

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I feel those nerfs from initial faq are more corrections of the rules to reflect what was intended than a nerf based on power levels. Those usually take another round of faq to take place 

Edited by azdimy
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15 minutes ago, azdimy said:

I feel those nerfs from initial faq are more corrections of the rules to reflect what was intended than a nerf based on power levels. Those usually take another round of faq to take place 

That's what I find odd about the CA nerf. It's not a clarification it's a complete rewrite.

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Sometimes I do think GW overreacts a bit.  I think the worst case was nerfing the cast range addition for all endless spells because of Morathi.... 

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3 hours ago, The World Tree said:

It is not about balance, it is being tweaked to better reflect initial intention. It clearly was not meant to be used on a large units and have your opponent take millions of mortal wounds. It wasn't fun and was clearly not the point.

Yeah, just seems like a correction.

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4 hours ago, azdimy said:

I feel those nerfs from initial faq are more corrections of the rules to reflect what was intended than a nerf based on power levels. Those usually take another round of faq to take place 

This right here. People who think this rule was nerfed, go read the original warscroll. You can easily interpret the rule in both ways that the ability either deals bazillion mortals or it deals just d3 mortals after attacks have been resolved. To me this was clearly just gw clarifying how they originally intended it to work.

But before anyone thinks anything, I'm not blaming people for interpreting the rule the way they did (like I said, you can read it both ways), I just think it's good idea to be cool about instead of grabbing pitchforks and torches.

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