The heavy hand of GW balancing returns...

[Dead Scribe]

Well actually I have read and talked with a few people that are upset that something broken was fixed, because they have no competitive answers to the stuff that GW doesn't balance.

Most of the traffic that I have read and talked about with others there is a general resentment that the slaves to darkness book was so low in power that it can't be competitive anyway, and then they  make it even less so, despite the things in the game that are right now pretty OP and competitive.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Dead Scribe

[Kirjava13]

2 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

Well actually I have read and talked with a few people that are upset that something broken was fixed, because they have no competitive answers to the stuff that GW doesn't balance.

Most of the traffic that I have read and talked about with others there is a general resentment that the slaves to darkness book was so low in power that it can't be competitive anyway, and then they  make it even less so, despite the things in the game that are right now pretty OP and competitive.

Yes, we all know you and yours are only interested in the most cutthroat broken nonsense imaginable, carry on.

[Dead Scribe]

Thats probably most definitely not called for.  If you think general people enjoy picking up a faction that ends up weak and fodder for the stronger factions is good for the game and the continued success of the company, I think you might want to reevaluate.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Dead Scribe

[svnvaldez]

10 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

Probably also remembering that it's always beneficially to wait until the FAQ before building an army around that super powerful unit/ability 😉

100%

Most people know this on the forum but I wish the GW community team and GW store owners would be more open about this fact rather than pushing sales and generating hype for new products.

[Frowny]

50 minutes ago, Kirjava13 said:

Yes, it's this. Having gone through the entire thread, I am struggling to find all that many people who are unhappy that a broken ability was reigned in and brought in line with what the intention was.

I am happy with the change to the nurgle dp. That ability was broken as heck. No army should have 1cp: win target fight. I played it twice as ogors and despite having a lot of high damage high quality attacks, literally everything with that buff traded upwards in points. I can only imagine how crippling that would be to anything with droves of weaker attacks. It made utterly terrible plays good tactically like charging a single lone marauder into a stonehorn, safe knowing you will cause 5+ damage even in dying. That's ludicrous. I was actively retreating from every fight with things with that one  buff, since it consistently singlehandedly did more damage to me than I could do to him. Let alone the enemy unit actually attacking me.

It needed to be fixed promptly or it would single handedly crush everything. Maybe could have been done differently but even just a single mortal wound would have been overpowered so you'd need to rewrite the ability wholesale. Which they usually don't do in FAQs and erratas

You just don't see the people celebrating because it is distributed so much.  The players who liked it are hurt and the players who played against it are helped but only slightly, but there are a lot more of them.

The faction will still be fine. There's lots of other tools there. Just use him as a khorne demon prince.

[Nos]

GW manifestly dont care about balance, which is why everything is imbalanced. Its nota return of anything, its just GW doing what they do.

[EMMachine]

11 hours ago, Galas said:

Who was the whistleblower that told them Varanguard can't be from more than one Circle?!  Who was it?! 

So a mediocre unit and a mediocre batallion have become an even worse unit and a useless batallion. Ok. 

The problem is, giving a unit of Varanguard 2 circles was basicly a lore violation. Being Part of the First Circle is basicly as being part of the Hammers of Sigmar Stormhost, being part of the Oakenblow Warglave or another faction. Those guys have specific colorthemes for each circle (but not all are known). Saying my Varanguard has the second and sevened circle would be the same as having a Treelord Ancient that is Oakenblow and Gnarlroot at the same time and wants to get the effects of both glades.

[Nos]

1 hour ago, Dead Scribe said:

Thats probably most definitely not called for.  If you think general people enjoy picking up a faction that ends up weak and fodder for the stronger factions is good for the game and the continued success of the company, I think you might want to reevaluate.

So long as people continue to buy an army before working out it sucks in GW's notoriously imbalanced inelegant game systems its *great* for GW. Because sales and the vast majority of comments and auctions  online  suggest that it means people buy two or more armies. 

If all armies were balanced most people would probably just buy one, be content with it, add something here and there over time. Not start a new one til they've really got their fill of its ins and outs.

Capitalism and mass consumerism always intentionally wants its consumers to be unsatisfied with their purchase. This hobby thrives off over stretch, people buying more than they can handle, army fatigue, and the shininess of a new, different more appealing or effective alternative to these purchases. Not off contented, satisfied customers who love their army and cant  conceive of a better or different one.

GW want you to buy every army, not love one or two of them.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Nos

[Dead Scribe]

I don't disagree with you.  I believe exactly what you are saying is the case.  However, people are angry that the models that they like the most are not effective, and to them means they cannot really use them competitively.  For people whose main priority in gaming is competitive, that can sting.  Especially if they went out and bought the models and then just like that had it FAQ'd into a wet noodle, especially after other armies kept their OP nature for months now.

[Kurrilino]

23 hours ago, Sedraxis said:

My question is why isn't the darkfire daemonrift changed to prevent it from doing Kroak-levels of damage. That thing destroys entire armies right now.

I do think it's a shame they brought the Nurgle CA down so much, it still working on shooting as well would've made it more useful yet fair.

????

 

May i ask how the Demon Rift destroys whole armies?

I don't think they play this thing right

[Nos]

11 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

I don't disagree with you.  I believe exactly what you are saying is the case.  However, people are angry that the models that they like the most are not effective, and to them means they cannot really use them competitively.  For people whose main priority in gaming is competitive, that can sting.  Especially if they went out and bought the models and then just like that had it FAQ'd into a wet noodle, especially after other armies kept their OP nature for months now.

I understand why they're angry per se, but it's like buying football boots and shorts and signing up to a football club but then complaining that it was a waste of money because you don't want to play a game where you kick a ball.

GW games are expensive, imbalanced, inelegant, unstable, they have to be one of the worst value, least accessible games to play for the sake of playing a game. And that wont change while the company who makes them continues to be as outrageously successful as it is doing what it does.

[Kurrilino]

2 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

Most of the rage is probably in reality general disappointment with the quality of the S2D book and no a small amount of desperation for the book to have something in it.

It's funny because the general personality of the author really comes through in this tome. Once you fully implement the FAQ and errata. And, it's clear the author wrote this tome from a deeply conservative, and defensive perspective. Rather than the aggressive go win the game types that are generally drawn to chaos factions imo.

 

I fully agree here.

This i so painfully obvious and even worse not even necessary.

Just do the Aura right: Nurgle -1 to hit, Tzeench +1 to cast and Khorne +1 to hit and you have a thematic not overpowered army. You don't even have to play around with those bonkers fantasy rules applying randomly and are just flat out bad for the game one way or the other.

The Battalion for the warshrine could have been, Warshrine ability triggers on 2+ instead 3+ and everyone would be happy because it would be usefull but not even close to be OP.  

Now we have pages and pages of explaining why and when this or that applies and when not.

This is why people are upset, a lazy written, uninspired tome that pleases absolutely nobody and doesn't create any feeling of lore or purpose

 

[Double Misfire]

8 hours ago, Dead Scribe said:

Doesn't bother me.  Saves me money and I don't have to worry about that army being competitive enough to care about facing either.  

Never change 

[whispersofblood]

I must say @Dead Scribe's honesty is refreshing at times. 

TBH Daemonfire Rift is much more worse than bloated blessings. I demonstrated this locally with a simple experiment, there were two outs, put something with a low number of attacks with high dmg stats. Like a Rogue Idol, or something with full re-rolls to hit like Hagg Narr, and you basically completely bypass the dmg. Hell one of the best factions at getting around bloated blessings was S2D. 

[Forrix]

3 hours ago, Kirjava13 said:

Instead, by and large, it is people increasingly struggling to cope with what appears to be a shotgun approach to balancing the game. Why did this particular case get such speedy attention, when other far more egregious examples have gone far longer with less notice? Nobody is grumbling that something broken was fixed- rather, that the resources devoted to fixing it seem disproportionate to the scale of the problem when other problems go unresolved. So... perhaps we could put that particular straw man back in the barn.

This. Some people don't seem to be picking up (including a Mod) that I'm not upset that an OP ability was reigned in but rather scratching my head as to why this particular OP ability was reigned in so fast (and to be frank, with overkill) while other armies are left with just as OP or even more OP abilities for the better part of year or longer even.

[Kramer]

3 hours ago, Kirjava13 said:

Yes, we all know you and yours are only interested in the most cutthroat broken nonsense imaginable, carry on.

What a daft response. 🤷‍♀️
you have a conversation about rules being changed for the sake of balance. The people for whom it’s most important are those for who it defines the hobby. And one of them speaks up from that section of the player base and you dismiss it. The only reason it reads daft is because my first choice of word would be auto corrected 😉

For anyone below ‘I want to win a tournament’ the nurgle thing hardly matters. Because most wouldn’t play it if it hurts their opponents enjoyment. Because that would hurt their enjoyment. At least that is my experience. 

and I know, I know. I’m only interested in both narrative nonsense and competitive nonsense. So carry on. 

[Kramer]

2 hours ago, Nos said:

understand why they're angry per se, but it's like buying football boots and shorts and signing up to a football club but then complaining that it was a waste of money because you don't want to play a game where you kick a ball

I like this analogy. But it’s more like I buy the football boots with spikes for grass. and two weeks in the league changes the playing surface to artificial grass. 
 

2 hours ago, Nos said:

GW games are expensive, imbalanced, inelegant, unstable, they have to be one of the worst value, least accessible games to play for the sake of playing a game. And that wont change while the company who makes them continues to be as outrageously successful as it is doing what it does

I agree. And I love that the company keeps saying they’re model first. Because that’s why they’re winning. (And momentum of being the biggest helps).

[123lac]

4 hours ago, Kramer said:

I like this analogy. But it’s more like I buy the football boots with spikes for grass. and two weeks in the league changes the playing surface to artificial grass. 
 

I agree. And I love that the company keeps saying they’re model first. Because that’s why they’re winning. (And momentum of being the biggest helps).

So are there better systems that people play that can use GW models?

[Dead Scribe]

7 minutes ago, 123lac said:

So are there better systems that people play that can use GW models?

People talk about using GW models in conquest and kings of war and that warlords of nowhere game.  I don't know much about them other than no one around me plays those games so they are not an option for me.

[Sinfullyvannila]

10 hours ago, svnvaldez said:

100%

Most people know this on the forum but I wish the GW community team and GW store owners would be more open about this fact rather than pushing sales and generating hype for new products.

I agree this is generally good advice, but this FAQ also took nearly a month after the book came out. I completely lost interest in building this army and moved on to painting my pre existing Tzeentch army.

[123lac]

3 hours ago, Dead Scribe said:

People talk about using GW models in conquest and kings of war and that warlords of nowhere game.  I don't know much about them other than no one around me plays those games so they are not an option for me.

Yeah I figured.

Gotta play what the majority play otherwise no games 4 u.

[Nos]

3 hours ago, 123lac said:

So are there better systems that people play that can use GW models?

Absolutely.

But there are none that come remotely close in having the network of resources and players who learn to use/play them. If you buy GW models you buy into a worldwide community and culture of people and oponents and game support, theoretically.

But the reason for that is that GW has always prioritised models and lore, and those products are so good that millions of people invest in them for those reasons alone. The biggest strength GW have always had is spectacle and they have always focussed on that.

GW puts models on the window and offers free painting workshops, and it makes record profits year after year. It also just so happens you can play games with their models, but that has always come a  distant third in investment and marketing. Even now, think about the Community reveals at events and associated hype; they have nothing to do with the game and how armies or models play. They know they just need to show the models and nothing more, because the overwhelming majority of customers buy GW products because of how they look, and how they interact with a whole other universe of toys that look amazing and have rich source material that will only continue to grow because GW invest massively in making that universe full of those things.

It is easy to get excited over and buy an exiting model, but comparatively far more time consuming to build it, not to mention the time investment required to undercoat it, paint it to even a basic standard and learn the rules for it , the logistics of carrying an army etc even if you have ready made opponents.

That's all common to wargaming as a hobby in general, and actually why other companies have to work so hard on their rules and systems to make them effective and enjoyable, because maintaining new customers and stimulating existing ones in a hobby with this degree of investment is really difficult. 

But GW has the media and IP presence and resources to push a new army or game or warband on you every quarter or more and  build up the hype and the sense that you *need it* and are missing out on the GW universe at large if you're not involved. 

[Grimrock]

1 hour ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

I agree this is generally good advice, but this FAQ also took nearly a month after the book came out. I completely lost interest in building this army and moved on to painting my pre existing Tzeentch army.

Yeah, this has become a huge pain. Waiting to see what super strong ability will get nerfed (nurgle daemon prince) and what other super strong ability will stick around (maraudert teleport with nearly guaranteed long bomb charge) is exhausting. I just finished building my start collecting box last night because I had no idea which way they were going to go with the weapon ruling on chaos warriors. Shouldn't have to wait 3.5 weeks after getting the book to know what the rules actually are.

Edited January 15, 2020 by Grimrock

[Kramer]

4 hours ago, 123lac said:

So are there better systems that people play that can use GW models?

No I didn’t say that kind of struggling to see where you read that in my post? 😅

if it’s the models first thing. The GW philosophy is, how they explain it at least, is models first. That means that designers first come up with new models and only then the rules and background is made. The rules are made to fit the model. Not the other way around. 
For example. The origin of underworlds is that model designers made some of the warbands and that in turn led to the underworlds game. 

if you mean simply are there better ruleset out there. Yes apparently so. But I don’t play them. But trust the judgement of people who play both. 

[schwabbele]

12 hours ago, Dead Scribe said:

For people whose main priority in gaming is competitive, that can sting. 

I don’t think they are truly competitive then, as a competitive player I wouldn’t care , just buy roflstomp netlist and try to win. And competitive players should know  broken combos could be subject to a faq and be able to adapt.
 

I think it stings way more for the casual crowd. You field this awesome army, cool models , nice theme but get mowed down every game. No fun 😀