Lore Discussion: Gunpowder weapons

[Overread]

Actually the mention about ammunition is a good one. Guns in the setting seem to vary, but they seem to be in a wired spot with equal displays of repeating weapons and single shot or limited shot weapons. Skaven, for example, have single shot pistols and rifles, but at the same time you've got gattling guns with a mechanical crank (weapon team) and rats with gattling arms/chest attachments (I mean that might have internal body parts/mechanical cranking going on). Dwarves are much the same again with quite a variety in tech levels of guns. 

It seems that they are sort of in the 1800s era when you've got repeating weapons that clearly use some form of cartridge shot; but at the same time you've also still got your rifles/muskets where you have to manually load each ball/shot every time. Or where guns are capable of holding several loaded charges before they have to be reloaded (either from cartridge or manual ball and wadding and such). 

 

I figure we might well see some changes there if/when GW updates things like the free cities. I can well see the human gun users getting far more of an exotic steam-punk treatment visually to bring them up to standard with the lore that GW has created for them which, currently, is poorly presented on the tabletop. Heck tabletopwise the steam-tank is still the top of creative weapons; when in the stories we've got walking steam/aether powered walkers and such 

 

[Baron Klatz]

If GW release anything as close to what the fans have kitbashes for Ironweld then we're set on tech power in the Realms.

[Kramer]

On 1/9/2020 at 6:45 PM, Overread said:

Thing is if you had something like a company of English Longbowmen firing at you you KNEW about it. The sky was going dark and there was a wall of arrows pelting down from the skies.

Although I can’t disprove it... this sounds too Hollywood to be true. The higher up something is the more diffuse light dissipates the shadow. Just look at a table. How many arrows you need and how exact it must line up to cover it even with small gaps in between. And that’s one table. 
Now multiply that to a wall of arrows that the sky was going dark. 

still cool though 

[MoolkBiggestOrruk]

11 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

I'm sure there are lots of reasons.  One thing we don't know is exactly how gun/black powder is made.  It's an alchemical process, but the ingredients may well be different to in the real world.  This could well mean that it's production has a limit.  You also have a reliability element, powder by it's sheer nature is going to be susceptible to climate - both wet and hot (I'd not want to take a keg of black powder into Aqshy!).

Finally I'm guessing that you've things like Aether weapons and magical projectiles that are likely becoming more popular, do I want a handgun or to save up for a repeating aether gun?

 

I’ve considered this possibility as well.

It would make sense to me that given how volatile it was, in a world with magic permeating the air and what not that could also be an issue perhaps but i dont know if there is any lore supporting that theory. 

[EccentricCircle]

I guess in a fantasy world you can shoot enchanted shadow arrows, designed to block out the light.

[flemingmma]

So we're gonna get into some real world weirdness here.

Gun powder weapons took prominence in the west because it was cheaper and faster to arm and train a soldier with a simple powder weapon and no armour than to teach him to use a bow or how to properly fight and move in full plate. And even when gunpowder had primacy in a battlefield, armoured soldiers could counteract it. The 15-1600s are a really interesting time militarily with armoured knights taking on blocks of pikemen and musketeers. Hell the french had curassiers for ages given that the breastplate would give them legitimate protection against musket shot.

Given the chunkiness of the freeguild weapons, with the exception of mastercrafted duardin or ironweld stuff, i think we're dealing with wheellock and matchlock weapons that are unreliable and  incredibly slow to load, so many of the races and cultures throughout the mortal realms might have decided that they're not worth the effort or that these dang kids with their shootbangs are ruining a good war

[flemingmma]

16 hours ago, Overread said:

Actually the mention about ammunition is a good one. Guns in the setting seem to vary, but they seem to be in a wired spot with equal displays of repeating weapons and single shot or limited shot weapons. Skaven, for example, have single shot pistols and rifles, but at the same time you've got gattling guns with a mechanical crank (weapon team) and rats with gattling arms/chest attachments (I mean that might have internal body parts/mechanical cranking going on). Dwarves are much the same again with quite a variety in tech levels of guns. 

It seems that they are sort of in the 1800s era when you've got repeating weapons that clearly use some form of cartridge shot; but at the same time you've also still got your rifles/muskets where you have to manually load each ball/shot every time. Or where guns are capable of holding several loaded charges before they have to be reloaded (either from cartridge or manual ball and wadding and such). 

 

I figure we might well see some changes there if/when GW updates things like the free cities. I can well see the human gun users getting far more of an exotic steam-punk treatment visually to bring them up to standard with the lore that GW has created for them which, currently, is poorly presented on the tabletop. Heck tabletopwise the steam-tank is still the top of creative weapons; when in the stories we've got walking steam/aether powered walkers and such 

 

In 1861 you had most militaries in yhe world using single shot smoothbore muskets while the  henry rifle, the colt revolver and the gatling gun were all available. ****** was weird

[Baron Klatz]

To further some oddity, factor in outlaws like Ned Kelly were able to create bulletproof armor in 1880 against the modern firearms of the time using only pig iron they forged and were only defeated because they got surprised and left their ankles unarmored which the police were finally able to exploit.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ned_Kelly

With all the magic armors, duardin level craft and realm enhanced minerals like from Chamon (or even Ghur bones) available it's definitely a factor that muskets can't punch through most armors and shields there as they usually could with real-world plate.

 

Edited January 11, 2020 by Baron Klatz

[MoolkBiggestOrruk]

7 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

To further some oddity, factor in outlaws like Ned Kelly were able to create bulletproof armor in 1880 against the modern firearms of the time using only pig iron they forged and were only defeated because they got surprised and left their ankles unarmored which the police were finally able to exploit.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ned_Kelly

With all the magic armors, duardin level craft and realm enhanced minerals like from Chamon (or even Ghur bones) available it's definitely a factor that muskets can't punch through most armors and shields there as they usually could with real-world plate.

 

I imagine a good black orruk or chosen are probably decked out in heavy enough armor to handle most guns in the game for at least a couple shots.  

Granted, in the book that released recently “gloomspite” that involved goblins n stuff, the engineer girl had 2 pistols with multiple shots that she used to litter into an arachnarok spider and annihilate it.  Granted, i think that was a one and done thing lmao, but it was pretty cool.  No orruk or chosen would have survived that hahaha, but outside of those “technical marvels” i bet they could survive pretty well against most guns to.  

 

[Baron Klatz]

Oh no doubt but that's getting a little outside standard muskets we're talking about. There's already guards in the realms with buffed up rifles or even sorcerous ones used to defend Glymmsforge.

That's more unique though.

Just now, MoolkBiggestOrruk said:

Granted, in the book that released recently “gloomspite” that involved goblins n stuff, the engineer girl had 2 pistols with multiple shots that she used to litter into an arachnarok spider and annihilate it.  Granted, i think that was a one and done thing lmao, but it was pretty cool.  No orruk or chosen would have survived that hahaha, but outside of those “technical marvels” i bet they could survive pretty well against most guns to.  

Nice! I still need to read it.

That sounds about right though, engineer heroes always have the most terrifying weapons compared to what grunts could get as they enhance them.  Easy examples being Skyrye commanders, duardin cogsmiths and the gun master from Spear of Shadows.

Agreed on the crazy thick plate Orruks and Chaos easily wear. Those would make any normal marksmen think twice.

[JackStreicher]

Imo it comes down to exotic materials that can create very hard hitting bows and crossbows, and there is ofc the cultural aspect.

plus it is a vast world where a singular trend might take hundreds of years to be adapted by all peoples. (Also it‘s fantasy and therefor not 100% logical)

 

[flemingmma]

On 1/11/2020 at 9:32 PM, Baron Klatz said:

To further some oddity, factor in outlaws like Ned Kelly were able to create bulletproof armor in 1880 against the modern firearms of the time using only pig iron they forged and were only defeated because they got surprised and left their ankles unarmored which the police were finally able to exploit.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ned_Kelly

With all the magic armors, duardin level craft and realm enhanced minerals like from Chamon (or even Ghur bones) available it's definitely a factor that muskets can't punch through most armors and shields there as they usually could with real-world plate.

 

The sheer difference in power that modern smokeless powder has over black powder is ridiculous. That and the lack of fouling allowed weapons to advance way more in the years between the 1890's and 1918 than in the previous few hundred years

[Baron Klatz]

Indeed and sadly armor was never allowed to catch up to it because of the cost in money. It wouldn't be until the slaughters of WW1 that helmets were introduced that cut casualties from shrapnel by 90% and then in Vietnam from a soldier sneaking a dinner tray in his vest to survive an ambush that body armor was considered.

Very galling when a WW1 priest already perfected a bulletproof silk vest he even live fire tested on himself before trying to get the militaries to use it. They refused because of costs. Money came before men.

Even the Kharadron would be baffled at that kind of greed.

[Beastmaster]

1 hour ago, Baron Klatz said:

Indeed and sadly armor was never allowed to catch up to it because of the cost in money. It wouldn't be until the slaughters of WW1 that helmets were introduced that cut casualties from shrapnel by 90% and then in Vietnam from a soldier sneaking a dinner tray in his vest to survive an ambush that body armor was considered.

Very galling when a WW1 priest already perfected a bulletproof silk vest he even live fire tested on himself before trying to get the militaries to use it. They refused because of costs. Money came before men.

Even the Kharadron would be baffled at that kind of greed.

Seems modern industrialized countries who could theoretically draft millions  into their armies were more like skaven. Who would pay double for Clanrats if they had +2 armor save? 😁