The morghast problem.

[Dracan]

The math, according to https://aos-statshammer.herokuapp.com/, nice site btw check it out.

 

Morghasts are pretty overpriced per damage potential compared to stalkers. Yes the movement is nice but not worth the extra points when considering the additional damage stalkers can do.

if both variants where to get an extra attack with Harbingers getting rerolls to hit and Archi wound on 2+ the damage starts looking very similar.

Id much rather they be worth 210pts than lowering their cost.

So i am definitely in favor of making them better, either offensively as shown above or giving them more wounds and maybe permanent 5++ deathless to make them more resilient, as is they just just dont hit the spot for something that costs 210pts

Edited January 10, 2020 by Dracan

[BoneHeart]

The problem is that we have the same warscrolls for both OBR and LoN. OBR, fine argument valid, but in LoN, there are not so many heavy hitters as morghast so they are definitely filling a spot, especially within GhoN where they do 4 attacks. You can also add +1 A with a vampire so thats 10 Attacks from 2 morghasts which is nice. Also ,there is no other unit in LoN which charges 3D6.

[Scurvydog]

Morghasts have very little synergy with the main benefits of LoN, at the same time they also compete in a role which there is heavy competetion in Bonereapers, so they end up being the odd one out often. 

They don't need that much even, but +1 attack baseline would go a long way, or an increase to 12" move, right now hammer units hit harder, and fast units are faster, while they dont really shine anywhere or is at the very least a competetent replacement in the same role.

[SleeperAgent]

Just combine the two warscrolls archai/harbingers, and drop em to 200. Boom worth it. 9" fly, 5+ mortal shrug, and 3d6 charge.

[Honk]

56 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

Morghasts have very little synergy with the main benefits of LoN,

I do think they are overpriced compared to other elite units around their statline, buuuut...

for LoN they do bring some utility. 
3d6 charge for LoNight

-1 bravery for LoBlood

+1 attack in GHoN

they are too cumbersome and expensive in a competitive setting, maybe dropping down to 4-5hp each and upping them to 3 per unit, suddenly their damage output is on par... 

 

[Nos]

On 1/6/2020 at 11:17 AM, Overread said:

One problem is a lot of games - both on tabletop and in the computer world - tend to have a lot of people who focus on one single stat - the damage output. Be that potential wounds caused or damage per second etc.... The issue there is anything that isn't as "killy" as the best thing in the army often ends up being weighted as underperforming. That's why I argue that the resolution isn't necessarily making things better nor worse but in making the mechanics of the game open up to be either more than just killing; or at the very least introduce tiers of units that can only be viable threats against other specific tiers.

 

Not to the point of exclusions - 40K had the issue at one time where fliers could only be countered by specific anti-air models. So if you didn't take them your opponent would win very easily. Same was true for a long while with super-heavies (esp before Gw started making knights and such and the only superheavies were from Forgeworld).

The main issue is that lots of people approach AOS like a MOBA or MTG  or similar, ie a game in which there is a large enough dataset, incentive and resources for the manufacturer to invest heavily in balance and needs etc, not to mentionn the means to make changes universally with ease . And there isnt.

AOS is full of literally dozens (at a very conservative estimate) of units which are competitively worthless. There are entire faction which are competitively worthless. 40k is the same.

The meta of what is actually worth taking if you want to win going by the datasets of what is available is *tiny*. 

Now if you're not playing at the highest level-and lets race it, few on here are- all of that is moot. But so long as people focus on lists and stats and values required to compete at a level they will never play at, discussions of the game are always going to be warped as people just stuff their list with the pro choices in the belief that it's the lists that count over the skill of the people who make and play them.

Edited January 10, 2020 by Nos

[Joseph Mackay]

9 hours ago, Honk said:

 

they are too cumbersome and expensive in a competitive setting, maybe dropping down to 4-5hp each and upping them to 3 per unit, suddenly their damage output is on par... 

 

Unit sizes are tied to how many come in a box

[Honk]

23 hours ago, Joseph Mackay said:

Unit sizes are tied to how many come in a box

I demand an upgrade 🥳

On 1/10/2020 at 6:30 PM, Nos said:

The meta of what is actually worth taking if you want to win going by the datasets of what is available is *tiny*. 

on one side that might even be ok, but even in casual play the power gap can seriously throw a wrench into a more progressive list...  but if you bring a list of crappy units, you should also bring your alpha play 👻

[Death1942]

On 1/12/2020 at 10:20 AM, Honk said:

on one side that might even be ok, but even in casual play the power gap can seriously throw a wrench into a more progressive list...  but if you bring a list of crappy units, you should also bring your alpha play 👻

This is why I hate the people that brush off balance issues as "well don't play competitively and things are fine".  It really isn't fine when you are playing a casual game and your mates one unit that costs about the same as your Morghasts can completely wipe them off the board before they ever swing back.  That is why balance exists and why the game needs to constantly strive towards reaching it.

 

Now Morghasts I think just don't synergise with the army and I would hope in a new death book they might get a rework.  They do offer some very juicy things that you could build a list around (3d6 charge is really nice) but at the end of the day they are pricey for what they get you and they pretty much ignore all the good things in death in terms of keywords and buffs.  A points drop isn't going to save them (and going too low makes them silly), they need a rework and I hope they get it because they are absolutely awesome models and should see the table more often.

[Sception]

re upping the unit size for the points - even apart from the box size thing, that's effectively reducing the points cost per morghast.  Morghasts are huge.  Seriously, they're about the same size as Harvesters - which are themselves behemoths and monsters.  Going just by table presence and aesthetic considerations, 100 points per model already feels like it's pushing the lower bounds of what an individual morghast should cost.  If anything, I'd like to see them more expensive, as much as 120 or even 150 per model, if only their game mechanics could be improved enough to make that cost viable.  OBR already have so many different units at the 200 point per selection price point anyway.

But yeah, Morghast models are monsters, they should have monster-level stat lines.   like, 8, maybe even 10+ wounds apiece, maybe even with wound tiers like other monsters, so long as those tiers only affect number of attacks or something that can be applied with equal ease in a unit with multiple models where only one will be damaged at a time.  And the morghast signature ability really needs to be something other than just a -1 bravery aura.  That aura does practically nothing in OBR, and even in legions it isn't great.

Edited January 13, 2020 by Sception

[Death1942]

7 hours ago, Sception said:

But yeah, Morghast models are monsters, they should have monster-level stat lines.   like, 8, maybe even 10+ wounds apiece, maybe even with wound tiers like other monsters, so long as those tiers only affect number of attacks or something that can be applied with equal ease in a unit with multiple models where only one will be damaged at a time.  And the morghast signature ability really needs to be something other than just a -1 bravery aura.  That aura does practically nothing in OBR, and even in legions it isn't great.

Bravery hasn't really been a thing for years now.  I hope in the new edition they rework the whole thing or even just remove the auto pass for 1cp.  If they had 8 wounds each and/or went to a 3+ on no rend attacks I think it would go a long way to helping them feel like monsters.

[Jaxler]

On 1/10/2020 at 6:44 AM, BoneHeart said:

The problem is that we have the same warscrolls for both OBR and LoN. OBR, fine argument valid, but in LoN, there are not so many heavy hitters as morghast so they are definitely filling a spot, especially within GhoN where they do 4 attacks. You can also add +1 A with a vampire so thats 10 Attacks from 2 morghasts which is nice. Also ,there is no other unit in LoN which charges 3D6.

The problem is that they're just worse grimghasts. Are you really going to invest in them when you can literally recycle grimghasts?

[Samukai]

With the additional attack in the Legions of Nagash allegiance they are for sure worth the points, especially with them now being healed for a flat 3 by Arkhan and Nagash. In other Legions and Bonereapers you need a specific strategy to justify them.