Building and running a mixed race city?

[Zadolix]

Hi all, I received a freeguild general and assassin for Christmas as well as £25 of vouchers to spend. I'm looking to make my first handful of purchases to start building my city and in the wider view I want to run a mixed race city. My thoughts would be having shadow warriors and the assassin to be my aelf contingent, crossbowmen and greatswords and demigryphs to be my human contingent and probably longbeards to be my duardin representation.

I like the theme of this but when I study the tome I'm not sure if I am handicapping myself by doing this. Theme wise it looks really fun but rules wise my freeguild general would only help less than half my army. Can anyone offer any guidance or help on how they have made their mixed race cities and what led them to the choices they made? Am I trying to fit too many races in?

[zilberfrid]

Most of the buffs generals can give are quite targeted. For instance, the Freeguild General can give three units +1 to wound and hit if they stand still. Thus, you don't particularely need more than three units, as the buffs will get wasted anyway.

The most effective lists have multiple races in them. Humans can sort of work as a singular team, but the wizards will still be a different allegiance from the rest.

Shadow Warriors and Dark Riders don't receive any bonus from the assassin, and are a bit better by themselves to compensate.

If you get Longbeards, get another unit as well, they are a bit of a unique pick in that they can buff other units and are not heroes, but if you don't bring other units, it's a bit wasted. If you like dwarves, take a look at the Greywater Fastness Start Collecting (which does not tie you down to Greywater Fastness by any means). It gives you the two flavours of Cities dwarves, one flavour of which shares allegiance with humans.

I think it's wise to get the book first, so you can see what you like in each city, and then decide which unit fits which city.

One thing you probably will not regret getting, is a Celestial Hurricanum. It has two wizards in it that you can use separately, is a beautiful kit, and the Hurricanum is a staple in many lists.

Oh, and in my humble opinion, the Crossbowmen set is very ugly; coarse modelling, uninspiring uniform, and simply not that good a sculpt. And I have about 50 of them. If you can find alternative models for those, you'll be better off (I went with mostly Bretonnian Archers that I purchased in bulk. Not very good, but still better).

One thing you'll notice, is that, unlike other kits, Cities is very modular and generous with parts.

The Shadow Warriors have almost complete Sisters of the Watch in them, provided you can find the legs, the Longbeards have Hammerer parts, the greatswords have 22 greatswords, similar amounts of heads, and almost enough single handed weapons to outfit guard as well. If you can get your hands on old Warhammer figures, you can about double the yield of the newer kits, but you can also peek through all the extra bits and replace a few ugly heads you may have, or simply make them more diverse.

There are only a few warscrolls that are not good, being the Drakespawn Knights (the point drop was not enough) Battlewizard on Griffin (though the General does work, and it gives you a General on Griffin, General on Foot, Battlewizard and heads to convert horses to Demigryphs) and Executioners (though they share a set with more useful Black Guard), the rest all has its place.

My favourite sets would be

• Greatswords (so many parts, can make a General as well)
• Pistoleers (15 heads and weapons for as many models)
• Celestial Hurricanum (beautiful, two wizards and good alternate model)
• General on Griffin (beautiful, and again, good extra bits)

But then, I am mainly doing Freeguild stuff, which is a flaw, but I simply have too much of them to invest heavily in more plastic.

Another source for bodies would be Lord of the Rings. It is smaller, but if you are internally consistent, that should not be a big issue. 

Edited January 3, 2020 by zilberfrid

[Myrdin]

I noticed to many people in the CoS thread focus to much on the individual subfaction generals and what can they do.

Honestly, the Warscrolls of most units in this army can perform quite well even without the generals aid. 

Sisters of the Watch ? Shadow Warriors ? Wild Riders ? Phoenix Guard ? Gyrocopters ? Dragons Phoenixes, Hydra and othe big gribblies, Etc etc etc 

None of these require their specific general to perform well. 

And the City buff affect everyone equally. 

If you are planning on going for ETC tournaments and such I guess min maxing the ever living poop out of your list makes sense but otherwise ? You can very easily build a competitive yet fun list for everydays gaming without paying attention to stuff like that. People are stressing to much about it.  

Just imagine all the roles in your army and the general style you want to play, and once done start filling those roles randomly. At first you end up with a draft that, once you start adding the Cities, Battalions and spells that will come into effect. This will shift and change the list a lot before you`re done with it. The heroes while important shouldnt be hampering your list building unless its some big expensive stuff like Gryf riders, Annointed on Phoenix or the Black Dragon duo. Those are as much monsters as they are heroes. Their cost and battlefield role differs quite different from the small guys shouldnt be a chain that is binding you. It should be a supplement to the force you already have going on.

To me personally the great fun factor about the army is just that > the Mix and Mesh aspect of combining anything and everything and still make it work. Heck I am pretty sure you could run the army without any of the top priority heroes and still have equally good chance of winning.  Aint really that many armies out there who can do this. (Most of them either require their heroes who bring way to much utility to be ignored, or the exact opposite, their heroes bring so little other that they are taken mostly just because or not taken at all...).

 

Edited January 3, 2020 by Myrdin

[Zadolix]

@zilberfrid thanks for your detailed post. This is REALLY helpful! I have the book already but it has been quite overwhelming with where to begin since I am buying every from scratch and not using an existing collection.

1 hour ago, zilberfrid said:

One thing you probably will not regret getting, is a Celestial Hurricanum. It has two wizards in it that you can use separately, is a beautiful kit, and the Hurricanum is a staple in many lists.

I had no idea you got spare wizards in that kit, that's really helpful to know as I thought I'd have to buy the mystic battle wizard set. This will save me a lot of money.

1 hour ago, zilberfrid said:

Most of the buffs generals can give are quite targeted. For instance, the Freeguild General can give three units +1 to wound and hit if they stand still. Thus, you don't particularely need more than three units, as the buffs will get wasted anyway.

I plan to run the freeguild general on foot since I have the model so I think I will probably take 10 greatswords, and then maybe 2 units of 10 handgunners if the crossbow sculpts are pretty bad.

 

1 hour ago, zilberfrid said:

Oh, and in my humble opinion, the Crossbowmen set is very ugly; coarse modelling, uninspiring uniform, and simply not that good a sculpt. And I have about 50 of them. If you can find alternative models for those, you'll be better off (I went with mostly Bretonnian Archers that I purchased in bulk. Not very good, but still better).

Are the handgunners just as bad with them being the same kit or?

 

1 hour ago, zilberfrid said:

One thing you'll notice, is that, unlike other kits, Cities is very modular and generous with parts.

The Shadow Warriors have almost complete Sisters of the Watch in them, provided you can find the legs, the Longbeards have Hammerer parts, the greatswords have 22 greatswords, similar amounts of heads, and almost enough single handed weapons to outfit guard as well. If you can get your hands on old Warhammer figures, you can about double the yield of the newer kits, but you can also peek through all the extra bits and replace a few ugly heads you may have, or simply make them more diverse.

This one thing I definitely want to do, I plan to convert by bits swapping heads, weapons, shields, bodies etc where I can. Similar to Peachy's Hallowguild so that I can make a force that is my own. I may have to buy a few kits over time until I have enough bits to start swapping between a few kits. I may consider buying some second hand models to use the extra arms and bits like you say, that's a great idea.

 

13 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

If you are planning on going for ETC tournaments and such I guess min maxing the ever living shajt out of your list makes sense but otherwise ? You can very easily build a competitive yet fun list for everydays gaming without paying attention to stuff like that. People are stressing to much about it.

Just imagine all the roles in your army and the general style you want to play, and once done start filling those roles randomly. At first you end up with a draft that, once you start adding the Cities, Battalions and heroes will shift and change a lot before you`re done with it.

To me personally the great fun factor about the army is just that > the Mix and Mesh aspect of combining anything and everything and still make it work. Heck I am pretty sure you could run the army without any of the top priority heroes and still have equally good chance of winning.  Aint really that many armies out there who can do this. (Most of them either require their heroes who bring way to much utility to be ignored, or the exact opposite, their heroes bring so little other that they are taken mostly just because or not taken at all...

Thanks @Myrdin that's really encouraging to know that different warscrolls can work well without depending all the time on heroes and generals. I don't plan to play in a tournament setting any time soon and mainly just played matched play with friends (we just like using points for balance and structure). A mixed race approach is definitely the way I want to go and what you have said has helped me not to worry as much. I think taking into account what you and @zilberfrid have said I might build up to something like this as my starting force, not sure about what City yet but leaning towards Hammerhal or Tempest's Eye:

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
Freeguild General (100)
- General
- Trait: Acadamae Prodigy
Assassin (80)
- Artefact: Saint's Blade
Battlemage (90)
- Spell: Lore of Cinder - Cindercloud (Hammerhal Wizard)
- City Role: General's Adjutant (Must be 6 wounds or less)
10 x Freeguild Greatswords (160)
- City Role: Honoured Retinue (Must be 5-20 models)
10 x Freeguild Handgunners (100)
10 x Freeguild Handgunners (100)
10 x Ironbreakers (130)
10 x Shadow Warriors (110)
10 x Shadow Warriors (110)

Total: 980 / 1000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 75
 

The idea would be the general and battlemage form a front line with the handgunners and ironbreakers acting as a screen, the general and the greatswords would be a countercharge unit. Meanwhile I would use the Shadow warriors to flank/harass and capture objectives where I can, I would have the assassin pop out of one of these units that is attacking or holding an objective to try and do tons of damage using the saint's blade.

 

 

[dekay]

3 minutes ago, Zadolix said:

The idea would be the general and battlemage form a front line with the handgunners and ironbreakers acting as a screen, the general and the greatswords would be a countercharge unit. Meanwhile I would use the Shadow warriors to flank/harass and capture objectives where I can, I would have the assassin pop out of one of these units that is attacking or holding an objective to try and do tons of damage using the saint's blade.

Overall, it seems good and, as mentioned, Freeguild tend to work best supported by their character while shadowblades can operate perfectly well without any support at all.

Things I'd consider, though - Despite the name, Honoured Retinue's function is to catch hits aimed at your general. I know it feels thematic to make Greatswords one, but they don't like getting extra wounds. They're there to hit things. Consider moving the retinue status to either one of the handgunners, or, as you already have them, ironbreakers. Ironbreakers are a fun retinue unit, as they don't hit all that hard, but they're tough enough to make removing your retinue a non trivial task, making your general last longer. Plus, they work as a bodyguard unit visually and thematically.

Another thing, but this one is personal preference only - best thing about Assassin is that he can show up anywhere. Saint's blade works only in certain places. I think giving him some realm-artifact weapon might suit him better, as they don't hurt his flexibility, and both Aqshy and Ghyran offer some interesting options.  Ghyrstrike for maximum reliability, magmaforged blade for even more mortal wounds, Or generic Order artifacts - Obstinate Blade and Relic Blade are both good, while Quicksilver potion makes Assassin surprise even nastier (but it's one use only, so you better know what you're doing)

[Zadolix]

4 minutes ago, dekay said:

Things I'd consider, though - Despite the name, Honoured Retinue's function is to catch hits aimed at your general. I know it feels thematic to make Greatswords one, but they don't like getting extra wounds. They're there to hit things. Consider moving the retinue status to either one of the handgunners, or, as you already have them, ironbreakers. Ironbreakers are a fun retinue unit, as they don't hit all that hard, but they're tough enough to make removing your retinue a non trivial task, making your general last longer. Plus, they work as a bodyguard unit visually and thematically.

Ahh okay I see, that makes sense. If I'm reading the rule correctly would it mean that say if my general got shot at and hit and wounded I would roll the dice to move the wounds over to the Ironbreakers and then take the armour save on the Ironbreakers? If so that would be awesome!

 

5 minutes ago, dekay said:

Another thing, but this one is personal preference only - best thing about Assassin is that he can show up anywhere. Saint's blade works only in certain places. I think giving him some realm-artifact weapon might suit him better, as they don't hurt his flexibility, and both Aqshy and Ghyran offer some interesting options.  Ghyrstrike for maximum reliability, magmaforged blade for even more mortal wounds, Or generic Order artifacts - Obstinate Blade and Relic Blade are both good, while Quicksilver potion makes Assassin surprise even nastier (but it's one use only, so you better know what you're doing)

Never thought about that but you make a good point, I guess that would mean I could use my Assassin more flexibly to pop out near my frontline instead of the shadow warriors if need be to either support a unit or go for some sort of alpha striking hero. I'll certainly look into this!

 

Looking at the City abilities I think Hammerhal might suit this force best as my front line will probably be in my territory holding objectives while the shadow warriors are likely to be in enemy territory. I could possibly use righteous purpose on the shadow warriors through the assassin. Plus with all the extra command points I could keep popping off the new command abilities from GHB19 for rerolls while getting the hit roll bonuses from the general, could maybe swap his trait to blood of the twelves too to give out 12" reroll 1s to wound bubble for melee.

[Myrdin]

Seems like a decent enough list for 1K points
Honestly reading through what you wrote, my mind already started to construct a pseudo background lore for your City based upon the models you have listed. A mighty  Freeguild General twirling his most manly of mustaches and a sleek Shadowblade Assassin with sexi voice and a bit of a tsundere personality making for a really dynamic duo with plenty of both funny and heart touching moments ^^

Starting as a rag tag band of mercenary survivors of some long campaign, the different groups meet each other and an unexpected friendship and respect is formed in between these two groups (one being the human-duardin mercenaries the other being the shadowy non trusting guardians of the realms outskirts) as they struggle against all odds, bond and become stronger together. Eventually getting completely cut off from any chance of getting back home they settle in some remote yet fairly safe place a settlement which lays down the foundaition of a mighty City to be! (as you collection grows and takes more personalized shape)

But hey, that just the first idea I got. The first glimpse of the story my creative sparks started to ignite regarding this    I am sure you`ll come up with something nice on your own (or just feel free to use this as an inspiration if you liked it ^^)

 

Going to play with a fairly new player and his Seraphon soon, and since only started building his army we`ll got with 1K format as well.

Its surprising how much flavor (and strength, make no mistake) this army can stuff in such a limited format without the need to rely on the heroes too much. And for that list I have a mix of what.... 4-5 of the CoS subfaction ? So dont be discouraged by trying this or that. Cities of Sigmar are a rewarding army for a hobbyist player (the hobby being important part of that equation), and are the closest to the more traditional Fantasy genre with its mixed population of different "Good" Races (they give quite the DnD vibe :) )

 

Edited January 3, 2020 by Myrdin

[Zadolix]

2 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

Honestly reading through what you wrote, my mind already started to construct a pseudo background lore for your City based upon the models you have listed. A mighty  Freeguild General twirling his most manly of mustaches and a sleek Shadowblade Assassin with sexi voice and a bit of a tsundere personality making for a really dynamic duo with plenty of both funny and heart touching moments ^^

Starting as a rag tag band of mercenary survivors of some long campaign, the different groups meet each other and an unexpected friendship and respect is formed in between these two groups (one being the human-duardin mercenaries the other being the shadowy non trusting guardians of the realms outskirts) as they struggle against all odds, bond and become stronger together. Eventually getting completely cut off from any chance of getting back home they settle in some remote yet fairly safe place a settlement which lays down the foundaition of a mighty City to be! (as you collection grows and takes more personalized shape)

At least that was the first glimpse of the story my creative sparks started to ignite regarding this  

haha! you partly read my mind already! I already had a sort of floating concept in my head that has been brewing about these races working together, albeit with a touch of mild fantasy racism as they don't trust each other yet rely on each other. I'm planning for the city to be called Everunity with the humans actually being the head honchos and in charge over the aelfs and the duardin which creates a lot of friction and factionalism, yet when war comes they very much need each other. I haven't thought about what realm they will be in yet (that's going to be a big decision that will affect the basing scheme) but I might use the free city RNG tables that GW put out and see what happens.

 

5 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

Going to play with a fairly new player and his Seraphon soon, and since only started building his army we`ll got with 1K format as well.

Its surprising how much flavor (and strength, make no mistake) this army can stuff in such a limited format without the need to rely on the heroes too much. And for that list I have a mix of what.... 4-5 of the CoS subfaction ? So dont be discouraged by trying this or that. Cities of Sigmar are a rewarding army for a hobbyist player (the hobby being important part of that equation), and are the closest to the more traditional Fantasy genre with its mixed population of different "Good" Races (they give quite the DnD vibe :) )

Nice what are you thinking of running? A civilised city versus the savage dinos sounds like a fun match up! I know what you mean about the D&D vibes, I really feel that as well and I can't wait to get building and painting the force to visually see that in front of me. Plus the amount of opportunities to throw out some classic racist one liners between humans, aelfs and duardin to each other is going to give us so many lols.

[Myrdin]

Heh, well the racism thing is always a part of it no matter which universe you look at. Be it Warcraft, Dungeons and Dragons, Heroes of Might and Magic etc etc.

For example I am a huge fan of the first Dragon Age game, where the story was set in a place where the tension between the races was fairly high. Humans viewed elves as sub humans, and treated them as lower class. The elves being the underdog in that part of the world hated humans equally and were miss trusting of others, while the Dwarves hated everyone equally

And yet, when the Blight came you as the player unified them against the greater threat, setting aside their prejudices and dislike of each other. I though in these terms, when crafting the story. Its not happy sunshine and roses straight from the get go. There is hate, miss trust and disdain. Grudges to be cleared and oaths to be tested. But the need to survive burries all of that under the piles of their dead enemies as new bonds are born of blood, trust is forged out of necessity and respect is earned on the field of battle. I mean I am a Warhammer fan. Grim and Dark is my bread and butter. But I also enjoy some occasional puppies and kitty cats (meaning less grimd dark and more on the happy end of thing, unless it was clear XD). But I digress.

 

The list I was thinking about is something like this:
 

Spoiler

 

Most likely Hammerhall for this one

1000/1000pts exactly

1x Black Arc Fleetmaster

1x Battle Mage

2x10 Corsair with blades for Battleline / Freeguild Guard with halberds

1x10 Sisters of the Watch

1x10 Shadow Warriors

1x10 Executioners

1x War Hydra or possibly Kharybdiss

1x Hellblaster Volley Gun

 

I went with Fleet Master, because he while not amazing, is the cheapest hero possible and also unlock the Battle line Corsair.

Why Corsairs and not Freeguild guard with a General ? Because General is more expensive. and sure I could compensate by dropping Executioners and going with something cheaper instead but... I dont care . My opponent is a new player. Trying weird combinations, and having fun playing them is the name of the game. This is purely a fun list while still having teeth to bite. Though depending on the models I`ll have ready at hand for that game I might be forced to go with the Guard instead of Corsair.

 

 

Edited January 3, 2020 by Myrdin

[Zadolix]

@Myrdin I know exactly where you're coming from, I absolutely loved the first Dragon Age origins (I haven't played any of the others and it sounds like I might have avoided disappointment). But yeah the racial tensions and dark fantasy setting of dragon age 1 were fantastic. Definitely an inspiration for me regarding the racial tensions.

How have you found the corsairs by the way? The models look great and havinbg the little crossbows looks cool. 

I just ordered 2 boxes of handgunners today to pickup next week to get started along with my freeguild general. 

[Myrdin]

Not really, second one wasnt that great and the third one.... it was pretty decent, though not as amazing as the frist DA and... well it had some political undertones that do not fit for a game like that, but lets not get deeper into that as to avoid drama.

Oh and just to make this clear..... Werewolves.... always go Werewolves if you dont have a diplomatic character that can talk its way out to get both elves and wwolves for the final battle. Why ? Because its Werewolves! :3 (and by no means is that just my Beastmen loving nature speaking right there, or my love for the fluffy adorable murder puppers xd)

 

Nope. Since my army is Catpon themed (Cathay/Nippon, and most of the times will be played as Tempest Eye), I have a friend of mine print me some test models that I designed in the HeroForge application. (Since the only nice ones I found were metal and the scale was tiny compared to AoS stuff)

My idea for Corsairs is to use Ninjas. Dual wielding specialists who can also shoot ? Replace the hand crossbow with shuriken and it fits nicely. The Drakecloacks bonus against shooting can be explained by them throwing smokebombs being agile and blending into their surroundings

Here is a WIP pic just for curiosity sake:

Spoiler

If the test miniatures are a success I will request a whole batch from him as I`d like about 40 of these buggers to run as 2x20 units in the future. 6 Different poses, 3 with ranged weapons represented, though the Xbow is not a valid option unless it becomes integrated into the dual wielding profile (something that would make this unit much less horrible in most peoples eyes), just for the flavor.

For the oncoming game I`ll go with the Freeguild Guard, and a Cogsmith as a General. Same price as Fleetmaster, but has a shooting attack and can keep my Hellblaster nice and healthy to dish out those 3D6 shot :3 

Edited January 5, 2020 by Myrdin

[Zadolix]

hahaha 2 blocks of 20 Ninjas across the board would be so awesome to see and play against if it was me. Are you going to theme their robes after the colours of your city too?

The recent Kharadron release is making me consider whether I'd get a frigate and an arkanaut company in the future, purely for theme. Not sure how well they would do but I like the idea of my free city having skyport with a duardin contingent who control the flow of trade for favours and benefits from the ruling human class.

[Myrdin]

5 hours ago, Zadolix said:

hahaha 2 blocks of 20 Ninjas across the board would be so awesome to see and play against if it was me. Are you going to theme their robes after the colours of your city too?

The recent Kharadron release is making me consider whether I'd get a frigate and an arkanaut company in the future, purely for theme. Not sure how well they would do but I like the idea of my free city having skyport with a duardin contingent who control the flow of trade for favours and benefits from the ruling human class.

Hmm not really. For this army I am going the "Many Clans united" way. Here is a pic. Basically there is not just a singular regimental color. My Ashigaru and Samurai (Freeguild Halberdiers and Greatswords), all are painted in 3 distinct color schemes for the armor > Black, Blue and Red. The different pieces of clothes are also all randomized to build upon the colorfulness such an army would bring. Same goes for stuff like my Demigrypfs > Dragon riders. The Dragons too will be different colors, mostly blue, red and green that fit the Asian themed serpentine miniature. Just few pictures to give you an idea waht I am talking about. (Also, credits where credit due: these were not painted by me, but a friend of mine. Though each individual color scheme and setting were researched and put together by me I wasn't the one holding the brush. I am just to slow of a painter to get anything more done than few miniatures a year >__<)

Spoiler

 

I havent yet heard much regarding the new KO book so I cant really say how good they are. My guess is that they are better, but how good actually I am not sure. But I mean sure, if you have an idea where you want to take the army, go for it

Edited January 6, 2020 by Myrdin