Anyone figure out a combo for Drakespawn Knights?

[Maddpainting]

I ... can have 30 Drakespawn Knights without trying (very little conversion), i have 30 Drakespawns and 30 guys with spears and i could forgo the drakes for Dreadspears, but then i'm wasting the Drakes.

I just got the CoS book and i have looked over it, i have found some ways to kinda make them playable

 TE, +3" movement, +1" charge, re-roll charges, 1 unit gets +1 attacks), this also makes them super tanky turn 1 (2+ save, but no after saves against MW's), and if the spell goes off i get to deal damage for once, then with a Dreadlord on Black dragon i can also get +1 to wound.

So, the question is, is there a better way to make them playable?

 

[Myrdin]

I am sorry to say that but no, no real wombo combo worth speaking off. No super hidden synergy that blows your mind, no nothing.

The unit is a disappointment with pretty horrible warscrol for an exorbitant price.

You could maybe pull a combo of some sort, by investing a ton into lot of support cast, however that support cast usually can work with other units to even better degree. Its not really about the support for the Drakespawn, its about their Warscroll being less then subpar.

Play them if you like them, especially if you have lot of them and like the unit, but always be sure to know that its on your own risk, and it might cost you dearly , otherwise do not bother.

 

A shame honestly. I really wanted to run these, and so did many people both here and IRL whom I know that play CoS. Unfortunately this is one of the 2-3 lackluster units in this book, that is an actuall disappointment.

All it took was give the drake -1 rend, and 2A for the rider, to get some staying power for the elite heavy cav this unit is supposed to be.

Are they playable ? Yes, but are they actually good enough to be considering worth taking instead of other options in the book and without you handicapping yourself ? Unfortunately the answer is no : (

*They are pretty much what the Bullgor Minotaurs were for Beast of Chaos up till the latest points change, to bring them close to Ogors. A subpar unit that can work to a degree if you really commit to it, but is no way worth the investment and bears many risks alongside. (And lets be honest the minos are still not good even at -20pts. They need a warscroll buff to be what they were meant to be, not a cheap price drop.)

[Maddpainting]

Yes i fully agree they are over costed, i think GW is scared of any unit that can be 2+ saves and battleline. They really need to be 120pts for 5, when looking at them at 150pts i just think of IDK Eels (140 and 170) they are literally better in everyway, even the no rend Eels are 3+ ignore rend, +4" movement over them, has fly, and are 12 wounds a unit compare to 10 wounds, 13 attack, then 3, then 3D3, hits/wounds on 3+ and the 3 attack weapon is D3 wounds, all that for 10pts cheaper. Granted the Eels can never be 2+, but a 3+ ignore rend imo is just as good.

So it seems TE is still the best for them then and no leader/relic/command trait will be better for them, at least +1 to atk and to wound makes them feel playable.
 

[dekay]

Good news is, the unit itself isn't terrible. As in, it's design doesn't seem to be inherently flawed. They are just too expensive what what they do. Less so with the errata, but still. If they were 130 points they could be considered good. So, worst case, you'll need to wait for next price reduction (which will come, I think, if they continue to underperform).

 

For now, yeah, I think Tempest's Eye is the best choice for them for reasons you mentioned. I would say that at 150 points they are not terrible.

Stack buffs on them and hope for 1st turn charge, enjoy the fact that both dreadlords skill and aura of glory are area effects so you can use it on multiple units.

And you need to use the spare parts from your milion scourge runners anyway, so go for it

[Maddpainting]

LOL, yeah the plan was a Dreadlord, 20black of Drakes, lots of Scourgerunners as back ups.

[Alessio]

I wrote a mail to GW complaining about their point cost hopefully one day they will change it.

[Forrix]

I thinks worth noting that GW dropped their price in the Winter FAQ despite CoS being so new. I think they've caught on that Drakespawn are Capitol B bad. Hopefully in the GHB 2020 they'll get buffed again and be playable.

[readercolin]

Drakespawn Knights have 2 units that are "competition" in Cities of Sigmar.  The first and most obvious are Demigryph Knights, as they are nearly the same unit (10" move, 3+ save) for 180 points.  The second are Wild Riders, which are basically a slightly less armored version of them for only 130 points.

The first comparison are Demigryph Knights.  With lances (because that is the closest comparison), 3 Demi's give you 10 lance attacks with the same profile as the drakes, and then 9 demi attacks that have a 3+/3+ profile, rend, and a chance for mortal wounds, all while having a smaller front (only 3 models) and more wounds (12 to the unit as opposed to 10).  To compare, the drakes get 6 lance attacks (5 for each block after the first), and 10 drake attacks.  Putting in a simple comparison, 5 drakes on the charge deal a little bit less damage as 3 demi's with lances who aren't charging, and if the demi's charge they deal almost double the damage.

Wild Riders on the other hand trade 2" more movement for a 5+ save, but they get 2 attacks with their lances as opposed to 1.  So a squad is basically always going to have 5 more lance attacks with the same profiles, but their mounts only have a 4+/4+ profile.  Despite that, when not charging, they have slightly more damage than drakespawn knights that didn't charge, and when they charge they get about 33% more damage than the knights.

Next, we look at ways to buff them.  Dreadlord on black dragon gives drakes a +1 to wound.  Compare this to demi's, which get a +1 to hit from a griffon, or wild riders which get +1 to hit from the Nomad Prince.  We can get +1's to hit from Hammerhall, or the Celestial Hurricanum.  We can get +1 to wound from Hallowheart.  Lastly, we can get +1 attack from Tempest Eye.  The clear standout here is the +1 attack from Tempest Eye.  But what does that do for us?  Well, with +1 attacks across the board, a unit of drakespawn knights on the charge will deal about as much damage as a unit of Demi's on the charge when unbuffed.  Throw that same spell onto the Demi's, and we get a 33% bonus in power though.

Realistically, if you want to maximize Drakespawn Knights, you are going to want to run them in tempest eye, accompany them with a hurricanum (casting the +1 attack spell) and a dreadlord on black dragon.  This will give you a unit that has a 2+/3+/-2/2 lance attack, with 11 attacks for the first 5 and 10 for every 5 after that, and a 2+/3+/-/1 damage mount attack with 15 attacks for every 5.  However, we are now spending 580 points on buffs for these units, and if we were to throw that much support at either the Demi's of wild riders, we'd get a good bit more bang for our buck.

Running the numbers myself, I would consider running Drakespawn Knights if they dropped down to ~120 points.  At 110 points, you get as much per point from them as you do from demi's when both are charging (though the demi's still have the advantage of a smaller front and more wounds).  This means that to compete with demi's, you really need them to drop down to about 100 points.  And strong arguments can be made that demi's are overpriced as they are as well.

[Myrdin]

Ok lest be honest here. In army per army comparison you cant have a 100pts 2W 3+ save cavalry. I mean thats just a no. It would also to horrible things to the internal balance of the units in the same price brackets.

120 I can see being a reasonable price for a brick that doesnt kill much but stays at a spot for decent amount of time.

 

Edited December 23, 2019 by Myrdin

[amsoly]

43 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

Ok lest be honest here. In army per army comparison you cant have a 100pts 2W 3+ save cavalry. I mean thats just a no. It would also to horrible things to the internal balance of the units in the same price brackets.

120 I can see being a reasonable price for a brick that doesnt kill much but stays at a spot for decent amount of time.

 

Agreed here. I think we’re getting to the point they should be interchangeable with wild riders (120-130 points) or they need a buff to have a bigger bite. 2 attacks might be too much at the same points but I liked having rend on the mounts!

[Myrdin]

12 minutes ago, amsoly said:

Agreed here. I think we’re getting to the point they should be interchangeable with wild riders (120-130 points) or they need a buff to have a bigger bite. 2 attacks might be too much at the same points but I liked having rend on the mounts!

I was always of the oppinion these guys should be heavy cavalry. And by heavy I mean HEAVY.

Tough as nails and hard hitting. Not a Monster Cav like Demygryphs which is a step up, but strong enough to be like a Tier 2 unit on a 3 Tier list.

Riders should be 2A each, and the Drakes should have 3+/3+/-1/1. Keep them around 150 points.  This way they would have both strong charge, while at the same time fairly dependable staying power and durability. And at the same time they would not compete with the other two options > the light shock cav in Wild Riders or the even tougher and stronger Monster Cav in Demys. They would essentially be the middle ground in between those two. As they are now, they are neither.

Some things cant be fixed with just adjusting Point values. As someone who has BoC as his main army I know this, especially with the recent price adjustments to all Minotaur creatures in the army. Those things dont feel as if they should be  something cheap, especially to what they represent and the design that lies behind their ruleset, but for that to be what its supposed to be it requires a warscroll update.... I guess we can be thankful that GW at least tries to address the things with points adjustments since they clearly cant be bothered to review the occasional warscroll or two here and there.

Edited December 23, 2019 by Myrdin

[dekay]

28 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

Some things cant be fixed with just adjusting Point values. As someone who has BoC as his main army I know this, especially with the recent price adjustments to all Minotaur creatures in the army. Those things dont feel as if they should be  something cheap, especially to what they represent and the design that lies behind their ruleset, but for that to be what its supposed to be it requires a warscroll update.... I guess we can be thankful that GW at least tries to address the things with points adjustments since they clearly cant be bothered to review the occasional warscroll or two here and there.

Plague monks have been changed, so maybe there's a chance for poor minotaurs, too. But I'd argue that drakespawn are not one of those units. If they costed the same as wild riders (that do have some use) it'd basically be a choice if we want hitting power or armour in our melee cavalry. I think both would be used.

[Maddpainting]

Plague Monks got changed b.c they were almost game breaking, 4 different wound pools, 7 attacks for each one. Drakespawn Knights just needs to be 20-30pts cheaper.

[readercolin]

3 hours ago, Myrdin said:

Ok lest be honest here. In army per army comparison you cant have a 100pts 2W 3+ save cavalry. I mean thats just a no. It would also to horrible things to the internal balance of the units in the same price brackets.

120 I can see being a reasonable price for a brick that doesnt kill much but stays at a spot for decent amount of time.

 

So let me get this straight.  You are saying that you can't have a mobile damage sponge that hits like a wet noodle for only 100 points?  Cause I have actually run drakespawn Knights (at 1000 points), and that is literally all that they are.  At least as a damage sponge they would have a purpose in this army, and at around 100 points is about the only time I would consider running them again.  Otherwise, the only thing saving these dudes is a warscroll change.

[Myrdin]

30 minutes ago, readercolin said:

So let me get this straight.  You are saying that you can't have a mobile damage sponge that hits like a wet noodle for only 100 points?  Cause I have actually run drakespawn Knights (at 1000 points), and that is literally all that they are.  At least as a damage sponge they would have a purpose in this army, and at around 100 points is about the only time I would consider running them again.  Otherwise, the only thing saving these dudes is a warscroll change.

Hey if you know of any others, by all means share an example for another army out there, that is not considered broken (cough cough Osirairch) that has such a unit. There are some I can think of that are similar in design but none come at 100 points Battleline (even if optional) and 2W 3+ Save, so if you know of some please do share.

[Turin Turambar]

On 12/23/2019 at 6:28 PM, dekay said:

 If they costed the same as wild riders (that do have some use) it'd basically be a choice if we want hitting power or armour in our melee cavalry. I think both would be used.

Why would an elf riding a deer hit harder then an elf riding a dinosaur (hell a drakespawn is a modified dragon)  I would prefure drakespawn being either in between wild riders and demigryphs (so about 150 to 160 points for 5) or be an alternative to demis point wise (170-190 points per 5) with the war scroll changing to fit into one of these positions. 

Personally I would want 2 lance attacks minimum, this puts them in line with other elf lancers (wild riders and morrsarr guard) Infact I would give them the same stat line as morrsarr ( 2" 2 3+3+ - 1 damage, with -2 rend and 2 damage on charge) 

Arguably they could have a breath attack and other mount changes related to their relationship with black dragons. I would make them to black dragons what dracoths are to stardrakes. 

Stardrakes have a 18" mortal would on a 6 per model in a unit. Black dragons have the same thing but only 6". Dracoths have a 12" 1 attack d3 mortal wounds on a hit. Drakespawn could have the same but only 4-6" range. 

Stardrakes have 4 1" 3+3+-1 d3 claw attacks and 3 jaw attacks. A dracoth makes 3 jaw and claw attacks identical to stardrake claws except damage. Black dragons have 3 jaw attacks and 6 2" 4+3+ -1  2 claw attacks.

Following the dracoth model a drakespawn would have 4 (4.5) 2" 4+3+ -1 1 damage fang and claw attacks with an ability to make it greater damage (2 damage on the charge for example? ), this would also match their lore ("their fangs and claws are sharp enough to tear through metal and bone"). I would also change to bravery 6 to match the drop from a stardrakes to a dracoth (9 to 7) and put it online with demigryphs and morrsarr guard. 

Ofcause a demigryph only gets 1" range and 3 attacks Compared to a gryphon's 8 2" attacks (but its attacks are halfway between th gryphon's jaw and claw attacks) following the demigryph model would give a drakespawn 3 1" 4+2+ -1 1 damage attacks, possibly with an ability to do either more damage or mortal wounds. 

You could also play with the movement characteristics of drakespawns, for example making them only move 8" but getting improved modifiers to charge rolls/moves compared to other cos cavalry and 1 run roll/move per game, representing speed over short distances but slower under normal conditions. 

Edited December 24, 2019 by Turin Turambar
Spotted spelling errors in my text block