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AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion


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8 minutes ago, Enoby said:

After playing a bit with this book, if I could only change one thing I'd change how the allegiance ability interacts with marks. After playing a bit of a narrative Slaanesh/Khorne list, I was dissapointed by how limited I felt by the marks only being triggered when a hero was near (usually meaning I had to pay a hero tax to get a benefit out of allegiance abilities). In the end, I found it better to build around one mark, which goes against the idea of Slaves to Darkness being a mix of chaos warriors coming together (as opposed to the monogod books). I would love it if they changed it so any marked unit got their mark's benefit, and a hero being nearby triggered the mark's general benefit. 

To me, that would feel much nicer as I could build a mixed list without constantly thinking about hero tax to use the allegiance ability. 

The book feels like it was written for AoS 1.0 and not 2.0.  The base abilities are there, but the functionality is more clunky than other 2.0 books and way off kilter than the most recent books (2.5 style books).

that said, it fits my play style as “the underdog”.  I want to play very friendly and fun games, but against highly competitive individuals.  The book synergizes well, but only when it all clicks together.  
 

the other issue is it’s flanked by powerful book releases, and it’s not a “power” book.  It excels at manipulating your opponent through its various toolkit (Be’lakor, Despoiler Pitch-Black, Infernal Puppet, Dark Prophecy, Khorne DP CA, Whispers of Chaos and Crippling Ruin, Realmscourage Rupture, Furies, Mask of Darkness + Marauder charges) I’m sure there’s more that I can’t remember too :) 

I really enjoy the book, and hope with the upcoming GHB it receives some positive point adjustments.  

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Just wondering on folks thoughts on this take for S2D:

Ravagers Hero hammer V2
Allegiance: Slaves to Darkness
- Damned Legion: Ravagers
Mortal Realm: Ulgu

Leaders
Chaos Lord on Karkadrak (250)
- General
- Command Trait: Bolstered by Hate 
- Artefact: Dimensional Blade 
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
Chaos Lord on Karkadrak (250)
- Artefact: Sword of Judgement 
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
- Ravagers Command Trait: Eternal Vendetta
Chaos Sorcerer Lord on Manticore (260)
- Mark of Chaos: Undivided
- Spell: Mask of Darkness
- Ravagers Command Trait: Master of Deception
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (110)
- Mark of Chaos: Undivided
- Spell: Binding Damnation
- Ravagers Command Trait: Favoured of the Pantheon

Battleline
5 x Chaos Marauder Horsemen (90)
- Javelin & Shield
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
5 x Chaos Marauder Horsemen (90)
- Javelin & Shield
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
5 x Chaos Marauder Horsemen (90)
- Javelin & Shield
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
40 x Chaos Marauders (300)
- Axes & Shields
- Mark of Chaos: Undivided
20 x Chaos Marauders (150)
- Axes & Shields
- Mark of Chaos: Undivided

Behemoths
Chaos Warshrine (170)
- Mark of Chaos: Undivided

Battalions
Godsworn Champions of Ruin (180)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Darkfire Daemonrift (50)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 137

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Pretty solid list. I like the double Karkadrak.

Whats your game plan?

The Darkfire Daemonrift is a cool endless spell however it really shines when there are other endless spells and wizards around and will be competing against your other spells given both your wizards are single casters. Given you are running Ravagers maybe you would be better off with another CP instead?

Surely the large unit of Marauders wants to be mark of khorne for the aura buffs? Meanwhile the marauder horsemen dont get much from Khorne aura and would probably benefit more from battleshock immunity under the Undivided Aura.

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5 hours ago, Agent of Chaos said:

Pretty solid list. I like the double Karkadrak.

Whats your game plan?

The Darkfire Daemonrift is a cool endless spell however it really shines when there are other endless spells and wizards around and will be competing against your other spells given both your wizards are single casters. Given you are running Ravagers maybe you would be better off with another CP instead?

Surely the large unit of Marauders wants to be mark of khorne for the aura buffs? Meanwhile the marauder horsemen dont get much from Khorne aura and would probably benefit more from battleshock immunity under the Undivided Aura.

Main plan was to have the General karkadrak charge forward, fighting twice where possible, while the other hunts heroes, you raise a good point with the daemonfire rift, I mainly included it because of the soon to be excess of Seraphon players sure to arise from the nastiness that, that book contains xD though it could be swapped for perhaps the eightfold doom sigil? not sure.

Main plan would be to screen with the horsemen, then teleport the marauders forward to murder w/e poor fool needs killing. The sorcs to buff the both kark's and killing hordes w/ the manti sorc. 

Of course, i'm open to suggestions on how to make it better for sure.

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Are Chosen in any way viable? 

I would love to play them because they are beautiful models, but their rules just suck so much. Whenever I calculate their damage output and compare it to other units of their points scale, they are always the worst Option. Their damage output is really mediocre and they are Not tanky at All. The only way they get a little bit bettet is with re-rolls to Hit and wound.. like any other unit... 

Has someone played them in Std or a god-specific army and can Tell me how they performed and how they can perform better? 

Thank you very much! 

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2 hours ago, Salyx said:

I would love to play them because they are beautiful models, but their rules just suck so much. Whenever I calculate their damage output and compare it to other units of their points scale, they are always the worst Option. Their damage output is really mediocre and they are Not tanky at All. The only way they get a little bit bettet is with re-rolls to Hit and wound.. like any other unit... 

They outperform Marauders damage-wise. I always give them an Undivided Shrine reroll, because that's exactly what it's for (fishing for more 6s and MWs). I use them in Khorne and they are easily the best damage-dealers in the Mortals roster - better than Skullreapers.

Do you use AoS Statshammer to calculate damage, or something else? What similarly-priced units are you comparing them to for damage?

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I am using Mathhammer to compare units. 

According to Mathhammer, Marauders outperform Chosen damage-wise. Comparing 20 Marauders to 5 Chosen with the same undivided Shrine buff, the Marauders Do 2 more damage at a 2+ save, on a 4+ save, they do almost double damage and on a 5+ or 6+ save, they do more than double the damage. 

Skullreapers outperform them as well, though nor that much. 5 of them completely unbuffed ( no built in re-rolls.) vs. 5 Chosen outperform them because they do 0.8 more mortal wounds. If you compare Chosen with full re-rolls to Skullreapers with only hit-Re-roll, the Chosen are better. However, to compare the buffs correctly, you have to whip the Skullreapers and with wound-re-roll they Come out at the top again. And they got 3 wounds each... 

 

When charging, Bestigor are better than Chosen as well (10 Bestigor on 4+ 3+ 3 A vs 5 Chosen unbuffed). 

Even Wrathmongers outperform Chosen at a 4+ save or less and you mostly take them for buffs. 

 

Maybe I am wrong, but the numbers seem devastating for Chosen. 

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Summer 2019 in the GW desinstudio:

S2Druledesigner1: I love the new range of models and want them to perform on the table.
S2Druledesigner2: Marauders - I love marauders.

S2Druledesigner1: I love the sight of heavy cavalry charging into battle. Let’s make a rule that the lowest dice in a knights charge roll is an auto 6!
S2Druledesigner2: I give that rule to marauders.

S2Druledesigner1: Chaos warriors are fine, but with that base size a big unit struggle to have the impact they deserve. Let’s give them a -1 rend if the unit has more then 20 models
S2Druledesigner2: nice idea – for my marauders.

S2Druledesigner1: All this warcry units are so beautiful. We need to make sure that they see a lot of play time. If ravangers can summon 10 Marauders or a warcry warband we need to make sure that the warbands are equal or better. 
S2Druledesigner2: What? Better then marauders? Ok I give them some gimmicks.

S2Drulesdesigner1: And don't forget to update all the old profiles, especially the chariot and  the chosen!
S2Drulesdesigner2: Sorry, I want to paint another unit of marauders tonight. Probably need a lot of them...

 

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On 6/12/2020 at 3:59 PM, Enoby said:

After playing a bit with this book, if I could only change one thing I'd change how the allegiance ability interacts with marks. After playing a bit of a narrative Slaanesh/Khorne list, I was dissapointed by how limited I felt by the marks only being triggered when a hero was near (usually meaning I had to pay a hero tax to get a benefit out of allegiance abilities). In the end, I found it better to build around one mark, which goes against the idea of Slaves to Darkness being a mix of chaos warriors coming together (as opposed to the monogod books). I would love it if they changed it so any marked unit got their mark's benefit, and a hero being nearby triggered the mark's general benefit. 

To me, that would feel much nicer as I could build a mixed list without constantly thinking about hero tax to use the allegiance ability. 

So much this, I struggle to paint mine because I don't know what Mark I want to put them and I just feel like there's so little interactions in between marks that are actually encouraged. I will probably mark them all subtly just a head or a symbol so they can be used with the various ones. 

Also it annoys me that there are 5 marks, 5 Warshrine, but only 4 marks for the daemon prince, and the Tzeentch one isn't even a wizard... 

I was really looking forward to that book and in the end I am mostly disappointed... I also dislike that there are no interactions at all with Mortals Rotbringers/Bloodbound/Arcanites. I mean they answer the Call of Archaon as often  as daemons... 

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3 hours ago, Ninelives said:

So much this, I struggle to paint mine because I don't know what Mark I want to put them and I just feel like there's so little interactions in between marks that are actually encouraged. I will probably mark them all subtly just a head or a symbol so they can be used with the various ones. 

Also it annoys me that there are 5 marks, 5 Warshrine, but only 4 marks for the daemon prince, and the Tzeentch one isn't even a wizard... 

I was really looking forward to that book and in the end I am mostly disappointed... I also dislike that there are no interactions at all with Mortals Rotbringers/Bloodbound/Arcanites. I mean they answer the Call of Archaon as often  as daemons... 

Yeah, STD feels a bit lacklustre compared to other battletomes. In our group (we're 6 players, all with different armies) the STD player struggles the most (he plays very Khorne-heavy STD but doesn't use the optimal units like marauders so he's far from a powergamer) to a point where I guess he'd perform better with Blades of Khorne allegiance. It's sad to watch Ironjawz vs STD as it's pretty one-sided and to me (old Warhammer player) feels terribly weird to see Orruks being so much stronger than Chaoswarriors. I still don't get how Ardboys are simply better at everything and cost the same/less.

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1 minute ago, MitGas said:

Yeah, STD feels a bit lacklustre compared to other battletomes. In our group (we're 6 players, all with different armies) the STD player struggles the most (he plays very Khorne-heavy STD but doesn't use the optimal units like marauders so he's far from a powergamer) to a point where I guess he'd perform better with Blades of Khorne allegiance. It's sad to watch Ironjawz vs STD as it's pretty one-sided and to me (old Warhammer player) feels terribly weird to see Orruks being so much stronger than Chaoswarriors. I still don't get how Ardboys are simply better at everything and cost the same/less.

The non-incentive to play the allegiance is actually what bothers me the most, I don't play competitively but still like to think of interesting lists (usually one that is really good at something but with one or two obvious flaws) that will have a chance of winning some games.

If the only way to play StD is mono-god, and never competes with an actual army of that god then what's the point. xD

 

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9 hours ago, Ninelives said:

 

The non-incentive to play the allegiance is actually what bothers me the most, I don't play competitively but still like to think of interesting lists (usually one that is really good at something but with one or two obvious flaws) that will have a chance of winning some games.

If the only way to play StD is mono-god, and never competes with an actual army of that god then what's the point. xD

 

I also have an IJ army and it is true they are powerful and ArdBoyz is probably the best unit to combo with a warchanter. Most of the power in that book comes from warchanters after all. With a warscroll comparison it does seem the ArdBoyz are ahead with the 1 rend and a better musician. Warriors do have 1 more move and potentially more MW defense from shields. Also rerolling saves in larger units is not to be ignored either. 

All things need to be considered in context though and std got some tools to handle such a pure melee force quite well. A khorne demon Prince command can really mess up the IJ battle plan. A warshrine backing up a large nurgle warrior unit can be one of the best anvils in the game. 

Trying to brawl with an IJ army is most likely not in anyone's favor except petrifex elite obr or possibly fyreslayers. Std are better at the objective game though, with access to just about anything. Trouble with super melee brawler armies charging you? Cheap screen cultists (golems) or maybe furies can help here. Ravages summoning from board edges can force elite armies to expend valuable babysitters on objectives. Super fast and cheap battline help there as well. 

But I agree IJ are super killy. In addition they are also rather easy to play and with so few options there are no bad armies either, basically 2 start collect kits and you got the core of a tournament list, så you will rarely find an "easy" IJ list, unless the player pillow fists on purpose with 0 or only 1 warchanter. 

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Anyone know how chaos chariot normal attacks works? I mean only chariot got 4 horses attacks 4s and 4s, 2 attacks with g blade 3s and 3s , and 2 attacks 4s and 4s with other weapon right? But i got plus 1 to hit for ma champion of the unit.  What weapon got this benefit? Thx all!!

 

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You got the attack right. The Part about the Champion says to afd +1 to Hit for All melee weapons excludibg the Mount. So you add +1 to Hit for the Great lade and the whip, but not for the horse attack. Keep in kind, however, that you need at least a squad of two in order to have a Champion. 

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On 6/17/2020 at 4:40 PM, Salyx said:

I am using Mathhammer to compare units. 

According to Mathhammer, Marauders outperform Chosen damage-wise. Comparing 20 Marauders to 5 Chosen with the same undivided Shrine buff, the Marauders Do 2 more damage at a 2+ save, on a 4+ save, they do almost double damage and on a 5+ or 6+ save, they do more than double the damage. 

Skullreapers outperform them as well, though nor that much. 5 of them completely unbuffed ( no built in re-rolls.) vs. 5 Chosen outperform them because they do 0.8 more mortal wounds. If you compare Chosen with full re-rolls to Skullreapers with only hit-Re-roll, the Chosen are better. However, to compare the buffs correctly, you have to whip the Skullreapers and with wound-re-roll they Come out at the top again. And they got 3 wounds each... 

 

When charging, Bestigor are better than Chosen as well (10 Bestigor on 4+ 3+ 3 A vs 5 Chosen unbuffed). 

Even Wrathmongers outperform Chosen at a 4+ save or less and you mostly take them for buffs. 

 

Maybe I am wrong, but the numbers seem devastating for Chosen. 

Hmm, yeah it sounds like there are differences between the calculations of the respective apps/websites (eg: does Mathhammer definitely apply MWs in addition to normal damage?). The following are from AoS Statshammer:

First picture is no buffs for the Chosen at all and minor native buffs for a couple of comparable units you mentioned.

Second picture is my usual experience of Chosen in Khorne with some comparable buffed Khorne units in a combat situation (so, considering base size a bit). I'm being a little generous to the Marauders too, which are harder to buff as a big swarm. Noting also that Skullreapers are much more expensive than Chosen.

 

Screenshot_20200618-202835.png

Screenshot_20200618-212045.png

Edited by Roark
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Thank you for your effort. 

My former assumptions were based on a user error 🤦‍♂️ I misclicked in the app and it calculated Mortal Wounds instead of hits.

However, I did some math homework as well. In order to verify the numbers, I calculated everything again by hand. However, I only used a 4+ save as Reference, everything else would have gone too far. 

First, I calculated the unbuffed units. The first number is my calculation, the second one from Mathhammer and the third one from Stathammer (your list)

 

5 Chosen (no buffs)

4+ save: 4,44 +2,5 MW= 6,94 (Mathhammer: 6,94) (Stathammer: 7,41)

 

5 Wrathmongers (no buffs)

4+ save: 5,925 (Mathhammer: 5,926) (Stathammer: 5,93)

 

20 Marauders (no buffs, 12 able to attack)

4+ save: 5,33 (Mathhammer: 5,33) (Stathammer: 5,13)

 

10 Bestigor ( charging)

4+ save: 6,66 (Mathhammer: 6,66) (Stathammer: 6,89)

 

5 Skullreapers (unit size >5)

4,74+3,54 Mortal Wounds= 8,28  (Mathhammer: 8,41) (Stathammer: 8,22)

It is clear to see that in an unbuffed situation the Skullreapers are the best choice. However, this is only due to their strong built- in buff. I compared them to Chosen because they perform the same role in that army as Mortal Wounds spamming Infantery unit. I know that Skullreapers are more expensive, but if you consider their extra rules, (Battleshock immunity, +1 Wound) a part of their higher points value is originated in these rules. If they cannot use their built-in re-roll, they are in fact worse than Chosen.

Concerning the Bestigor, we both did the same mistake to calculate 10 instead of 5 who would be able to pile into such a front.

 

Now let us have a look at the fully buffed table:

 

10 Chosen (+2 Attacks, Warshrine buff)

4+ save: 26,33 + 11,11 MW= 37,44 (Mathhammer: 36,537) (Stathammer: 38,2)

 

40 Marauders (+2 Attacks, Warshrine buff) (24 able to attack)

4+ save: 42,66 (Mathhammer: 42,66) (Stathammer: 36)

In this calculation, you did a mistake by only counting 20 Marauders to attack. In a 320 mm Frontage, 12 25 mm bases fit in. However, this calculation would only refer to a gap of exactly 320mm width. In reality, you should be able to get more models in from the second rank clipping over the edges.

 

10 Skullreapers (Unit size >5, whipped to Fury, +2 Attacks) (8 able to attack)

18,96+ 10,66MW= 29,62 (Mathhammer: 28,763) (Stathammer: 32,3)

When buffs are widely available, the Skullreapers start to dwindle, because their built- in buff is not that strong anymore. 

The Marauders, however, are still stronger than the Chosen on the offense, they profit most from these buffs because of their body count. The Chosen are only stronger against a 2+ save, which are very rare. However, a Stonehorn with an Ethereal Amulet might be just what Chosen can kill pretty well. In addition, Chosen have a better save and are more resilient to horde-deleting spells like Wind of Chaos. Furthermore, they are able to buff other units themselves. Especially Marauders profit from the Chosen buff, because Wound rolls are their biggest weakness. 

It seems that I have done the Chosen wrong. My apologies. Then I will get some more and fill them into Khorne armies with Marauders 😃

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Word on the street there is a way to include Chaos Hellcanons in a list  within wrath of the everchosen.  I don't own the book, but was wondering if anyone experimented with this or know more details regarding the parameters of their inclusion?

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@Salyx nice work mate. It's good to see the guts and comparison of the various calcs like that. One last thing I'll mention about Chosen is that I'll often reroll ANY hits that aren't 6s, due to their high likelihood of hitting again. I don't imagine this is built into any website calcs, but it can produce a VERY nice harvest of MWs.

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7 hours ago, Eldarain said:

Does it have points in the most recent GHB/Is that what determines what is Matched Play legal if it isn't in a tome?

Currently is has match play points in the current GHB19 and is legal to be used.  Due to keywords it was hard to fit outside of GA Chaos but when the the new Chaos Ascendant rules came out and people were quick to spot a new home for it.  

I'm wondering if it will make the transition over to GHB20. 

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On 6/17/2020 at 1:04 PM, Ninelives said:

If the only way to play StD is mono-god, and never competes with an actual army of that god then what's the point. xD

I'm not so sure on this point.

It's certainly the easiest way to play S2D and probably a little more fleixble (one hero covering multiple units and viceversa) but I think multi-god is ultimately where the power of the faction lies. You basically get to choose your buffs depending on a units role.

  • Big block of unshiftable warriors to grind people down? Shields with Mark of Nurgle!
  • Really make those Chariots hit home? Khorne!
  • Want to make a unit faster and double down on extra hits? Slaanesh!
  • Playing the endless spell game and don't want to be hit by them backfiring? Tzeench!

It takes a little more planning, but the Warshrine also feeds into this by having a very flexible buffing structure too, being able to target any of the marks with any other blessing.

Basically, if you play mono-god, yeah... Just go play that Battletome and miss out on Cultists and Monsters - but multi-god has some great flex.

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