AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion

[Neverchosen]

54 minutes ago, SpiritofHokuto said:

Yes and no. You can only get a total of +1 to saves but the extra over that can offset the uncapped negatives rend can do. 

So if I am reading this correctly a Tzeentch marked shrine granting a unit of 20 chaos warriors will still only have plus one to their save for the sake of dice rolls, but if they were hit by a rend -1 attack they would negate the rend.

Edited July 2, 2021 by Neverchosen

[Charlo]

A nice change to give Tzeench some real identity!

Super defence against both regualr attacks and mortal wounds from spells.

[SpiritofHokuto]

12 minutes ago, Charlo said:

A nice change to give Tzeench some real identity!

Super defence against both regualr attacks and mortal wounds from spells.

It's not even just that, but a straight up roll to ignore the spell entirely. And as they're not saves you can stack them, so a Tzeentch KotET Varanguard unit with Wall of Cursed Iron under the effect of a Warshrine would have a 4+/4+/5+ to completely ignore any spell/endless spell. Should note that it doesn't work against prayers/invocations.   

[drcrater]

Hm, the Darkfire Daemonrift have been nerfed, it doesn't count nearby wizards for the extra mortal wounds now

[Virtus-XIV]

1 hour ago, Neverchosen said:

So if I am reading this correctly a Tzeentch marked shrine granting a unit of 20 chaos warriors will still only have plus one to their save for the sake of dice rolls, but if they were hit by a rend -1 attack they would negate the rend.

That’s correct

[readercolin]

This is a bit sad:

A Blades of Khorne army can include coalition units (see below) as follows:

- 2 in every 4 units in the army can be a coalition unit from the Slaves to Darkness faction that has the Mark of Chaos keyword. Those units must be given the Khorne Mark of Chaos keyword.

- 1 in every 4 units in the army can be a coalition unit from the Beasts of Chaos faction. Those units gain the Khorne keyword.

A Blades of Khorne army cannot include coalition units with the Slaanesh, Tzeentch or Wizard keyword.

COALITION UNITS Coalition units are ignored when determining if the units in the army are from a single faction. Coalition units cannot be generals. Designer’s Note: Coalition units are not allied units, so the limitations that apply to allied units do not apply to them. This means that coalition units can be given one of your army’s enhancements, as long as they have the correct keywords or are of the correct unit type needed to receive it.

Similar text is there for Slaanesh, Tzeentch, and Nurgle.

This is a few nerfs for people like me who have a core of Slaves units, but also used them for various god factions.  No more Karkadrak's leading a Blades of Khorne army, and I also can't just take my slaves to darkness units, toss in a bloodthirster or two and put it under the Khorne banner.

That being said, nothing here talking about Coalition units says that they can't be your battleline, so unless that is stated somewhere else in the rules (that I can't find at the moment) you should be able to take some blocks of chaos warriors/marauders as your battleline for the various god factions, filling out the rest with the various cool units from their armies.

[Charlo]

Do they still get allegiance abilities?

[KoganStyle]

38 minutes ago, readercolin said:

This is a bit sad:

A Blades of Khorne army can include coalition units (see below) as follows:

- 2 in every 4 units in the army can be a coalition unit from the Slaves to Darkness faction that has the Mark of Chaos keyword. Those units must be given the Khorne Mark of Chaos keyword.

- 1 in every 4 units in the army can be a coalition unit from the Beasts of Chaos faction. Those units gain the Khorne keyword.

A Blades of Khorne army cannot include coalition units with the Slaanesh, Tzeentch or Wizard keyword.

COALITION UNITS Coalition units are ignored when determining if the units in the army are from a single faction. Coalition units cannot be generals. Designer’s Note: Coalition units are not allied units, so the limitations that apply to allied units do not apply to them. This means that coalition units can be given one of your army’s enhancements, as long as they have the correct keywords or are of the correct unit type needed to receive it.

Similar text is there for Slaanesh, Tzeentch, and Nurgle.

This is a few nerfs for people like me who have a core of Slaves units, but also used them for various god factions.  No more Karkadrak's leading a Blades of Khorne army, and I also can't just take my slaves to darkness units, toss in a bloodthirster or two and put it under the Khorne banner.

That being said, nothing here talking about Coalition units says that they can't be your battleline, so unless that is stated somewhere else in the rules (that I can't find at the moment) you should be able to take some blocks of chaos warriors/marauders as your battleline for the various god factions, filling out the rest with the various cool units from their armies.

It is stated in the matched play rules I believe that coalition units do not count as battleline

Edited July 2, 2021 by KoganStyle

[Praecautus]

Coalition unit can not be your general either 😒

[Iradekhorne]

I still have a doubt after the faqs. Can Bel'akor know general spells? like Flaming weapon or Levitate.

I see on all battletome faqs, on the spell lore, the phrase "Includinc unique units" but i don't read that on the faq on core rules.

[drcrater]

Well, I have made my first contact with third edition, trying also for first time the Cabalist subfaction, and oh man, I don't know how competitive will be, but sure is fun to have three endless spells roaming around constantly. I lost count of how many mortal wounds made my Darkfire Daemonrift, but that ****** was moving nonstop.

Also, the Sorcerer Lord on Manticore is serious business right now. And with Mark of Tzeentch and that bunch of +1 save sources, our army has become pretty difficult to kill. 

[Rors]

On 7/2/2021 at 9:51 PM, Boar said:

Erratas out, reroll saves are out from Chaos Warriors changed to +1 save, same on Oracular Visions

This is really disappointing. Warriors were looking like such an amazing anvil. Loss of reroll is a really big loss to their survival. Getting +1 save is so easy to achieve for them anyway that having it native isn't offering much.

I was planning a block of 30 undivided. Rerollable 3+, with a 6+ Ward and 5+ and mortal wound shrug that's also immune to battleschock was going to be so much fun. I'll still give it a go but it's going to present significantly less of a problem for the opponent.

[Salyx]

The +1s to save still do something: Negating enemy's Rend. So if you put a Mystic Shield in a unit of Chaos Warriors, they will ignore - 1 Rend. If you combine this with a Mark of Tzeentch, you got a really strong anvil again. Reroll saves is great, but becomes much less useful against Rend. 

[Jaskier]

On 7/3/2021 at 6:01 AM, Iradekhorne said:

I still have a doubt after the faqs. Can Bel'akor know general spells? like Flaming weapon or Levitate.

I see on all battletome faqs, on the spell lore, the phrase "Includinc unique units" but i don't read that on the faq on core rules.

To answer your question re Be'lakor, no. Unique units can't take enhancements, that's why they had to clarify spell lores are still open to eligible unique characters - i.e. Be'lakor and Archaon can still use the spell lore in Slaves to Darkness because the Errata lets unique characters take it, but they can't take the 'core rule' spells like Flaming Weapons. 

On 7/3/2021 at 2:52 AM, Charlo said:

Do they still get allegiance abilities?

Generally speaking, yes, as long as they have the right keywords to benefit (which the Marks usually give them.) 

[W1tchhunter]

9 hours ago, Rors said:

This is really disappointing. Warriors were looking like such an amazing anvil. Loss of reroll is a really big loss to their survival. Getting +1 save is so easy to achieve for them anyway that having it native isn't offering much.

I was planning a block of 30 undivided. Rerollable 3+, with a 6+ Ward and 5+ and mortal wound shrug that's also immune to battleschock was going to be so much fun. I'll still give it a go but it's going to present significantly less of a problem for the opponent.

I played two games with a stack of 20 warriors yesterday, the loss of rerolls has ruined there survivability for sure. I usually kept the warriors on the table the entire game previously. I lost them all both games by turn 3. So they are literally useless now cause they still hit like wet noodles.

With things now having easy access to +2 saves there lack of sharp weaponry is just depressing. I sent 48 attacks 3s and 2s at a stone horn yesterday and did 2 damage

[SpiritofHokuto]

15 hours ago, W1tchhunter said:

I played two games with a stack of 20 warriors yesterday, the loss of rerolls has ruined there survivability for sure. I usually kept the warriors on the table the entire game previously. I lost them all both games by turn 3. So they are literally useless now cause they still hit like wet noodles.

With things now having easy access to +2 saves there lack of sharp weaponry is just depressing. I sent 48 attacks 3s and 2s at a stone horn yesterday and did 2 damage

It is looking like either Tzeentch marked for the save re-roll of 1 or Undivided for the battleshock immunity is the way to go for Chaos Warriors now. And causing damage has always been an issue for them, best case scenario is halberds with the enemy unit having Curse on them. 

[Agent of Chaos]

I agree there maybe something to the mark of Tzeentch now. Originally I wanted to run a big anvil of Nurgle warriors for the 3+ rerolling saves in Idolators but following the FAQ I'm thinking the same anvil in Tzeentch Idolators might be the way to go.

I have 6 sources of +1 save (3 automatic [2 x Oracular Visions + All Out Defense], 2 on 2+ prayers and another from mystic shield) on top of the reroll 1's aura and inbuilt +1 save for warriors and Iron Golems. "Saves" to Darkness indeed!

The Idolator Lord is a CP generating machine; 1 for being General, another 1 on 4+ from Guidance prayer and then another from Heroic Leadership. This might put a target on his head but he rerolls 1's to save with easy access to increased save, has a 5+ shrug, benefits from Look Out Sir and in a pinch could heal with Heroic Recovery . Meanwhile it means I feel safe running Command Entourage instead of Warlord battalion so I'm only 4 drops.  

Almost every unit has a 5+ mortal wound shrug, plus the 5+ ignore spells if wholly within 12" of the general and I have 3 wizards with up to 4 unbinds/turn. 

Overall it should amount to a very resilient list however I'm very much relying on spells and maybe the Manticore and Glaive knights as my main damage outlets. 

Slaves to Darkness - Idolators	Grand Strategy: Hold the Line	4 Drops
Command Entourage	Notes	Role	Points
Sorcerer Lord on Manticore	Mark of Tzeentch, Spell: Binding Damnation	Leader	270
Sorcerer Lord	Mark of Tzeentch, Trait: Master of Magic Artefact: Arcane Tome, Spell: Mask of Darkness	Leader	115
Idolator Lord on Chariot	General, Mark of Tzeentch, Great Weapon Trait: Fiery Orator, Aftefact: Amulet of Destiny, Prayer: Guidance	Leader	105
Battle Regiment	Notes	Role	Points
Warshrine	Mark of Tzeentch, Curse	Leader, Behemoth	185
Chaos Lord on Daemonic Mount	Mark of Tzeentch	Leader	155
Chaos Lord	Mark of Tzeentch, Flail	Leader	120
5 x Chaos Knights	Mark of Tzeentch, Ensorcelled Weapons	Battleline	170
5 x Chaos Knights	Mark of Tzeentch, Glaives	Battleline	170
20 x Chaos Warriors	Mark of Tzeentch, Halberds & Shields	Battleline	400
8 x Iron Golems	Mark of Tzeentch	Battleline	75
Khagra's Ravagers	Mark of Undivided, Spell: Whispers of Chaos		125
Endless Spells			Points
Chronomatic Cogs			45
Soulsnare Shackles			65
		TOTAL =	2000

How would you improve the above list?

[Eldarain]

@Agent of Chaos I love that list. I'd change some things to fit my collection. Warriors swapped out for more Golems and fit some Marauders in but very much looking forward to giving that a whirl.

[Eldarain]

Damage output in general is a concern for me. It doesn't feel like we have the rend or mortal ability to overpower the defenses of most factions especially with the new generic buffs.

 

Should we be focusing on high attack reroll based fight again builds to kill em from a thousand cuts?

Edited July 5, 2021 by Eldarain

[Virtus-XIV]

Anyone else think Chosen and Knights are looking strong? Both barely hit by points increases, chosen can still be in units of 5 so aren’t impacted by coherency and they still generate MWs and have rend which is even more important with everything having easy access to +1 save.

[Agent of Chaos]

@Eldarain Feel the same about damage output. I try to write a strong melee list but find its damage output still appears lacking while having less than half of the resilience. 

I look at my Tzeentch list and think, how would I beat Gargants or Ogres or Fire Slayers etc? I doubt there is enough killing power to take down one Mega Gargant, let alone 2 or 3. Especially with the shackles I think the list plays super defensively, trys to do magic damage from the back while the front line holds and use the manticore/glaive knights as a scalpel. Maybe its possible to win tough games this way but will need to play some games to know for sure. 

 

[Agent of Chaos]

@Virtus-XIV Knights have and will continue to be strong for us. The Lord on Daemonic mount's command ability for +1 to hit and reroll charges is used in the hero phase while an allied bloodstoker whips them in the movement phase, meaning knights can still receive all out attack/defense or fight twice in the combat phase. Their inbuilt bravery debuff is more useful now. All round a very solid unit. 

Chosen are a tricky one. They are slow and pretty costly. A 3+ save is nice but they still only have 2 wounds, have no mortal wound protection and average bravery. They dont have a massive footprint for their reroll wounds aura (an ability that can be made redundant by a number of things in the army such as daemonic power spell, warshrine's undivided and nurgle prayers, Idolator Lord's nurgle prayer, the aforementioned bloodstoker ally, etc). 5 of them average less than 3 mortal wounds and if you fight with them first to proc the wound rerolls, the unit you wanted to benefit from those rerolls is getting attacked before it can swing.

Despite the above I am keen to try them, perhaps in partnership with an anvil of chaos warriors that isnt already rerolling wounds from one of the many available sources.

[SpiritofHokuto]

3 hours ago, Eldarain said:

Damage output in general is a concern for me. It doesn't feel like we have the rend or mortal ability to overpower the defenses of most factions especially with the new generic buffs.

 

Should we be focusing on high attack reroll based fight again builds to kill em from a thousand cuts?

I think the thousand cuts approach is what's going to win through in general this edition. With every man and his dog having multiple ways to get +1 to saves, the stock of Rend has gone down quite a bit. =>-2 will still do some work, but -1's usefulness just isn't what it used to be. And StD aren't exactly spoilt for choice when it comes to stuff with Rend -2 or greater. Halberd Warriors, Marauders, Ensorcelled Weapon Knights/Varanguard. Just sheer weight of attacks, backed up by being on 2's/3's to hit and wound with re-rolls. Together with resilience that while somewhat less than it was before, is still decent with generally good saves, a decent amount of wards/mortal wound protection and quite a few ways to trivialise Rend. Potential stacking spell ignores as well.    

[Charlo]

I've always had a soft spot for Tzeench marked stuff and I'm glad it seems to be doing something uiquue in 3rd!

Cabalists could be really nasty IMO. Damage comes from endless spells while blocks of warriors and such don't die or take many mortals from spells either.

[Sneedlewoods]

Does anybody read anything that universal general traits cant be picked for "Ravager Command Traits"?