AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion

[W1tchhunter]

2 hours ago, annarborhawk said:

Agreed. Chaos Knights - at a minimum - should be made to be a reasonably effective hammer unit with even a modest buff. And if they need to be made 200 pts along with it, I'd be more than happy.

I just checked my lil points book, blood knights are only 195 for 5

Our knights could do that 😛

[Neverchosen]

10 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

I‘d like the Chaos Marks to have a passive effect that’s not linked to any kind of hero.

apart from that (yet they won‘t do this) I‘d love S2D to be able to get 1 in 4 units from any chaos BT.

I hope that they get 1/4 allies but that it is tied to the general's mark:
Nurgle - Maggotkin
Tzeentch - Disciples
Khorne - Blades
Slaanesh - Hedonites
Undivided - Beasts

Now here is where things get interesting I hope that Skaven don't ally with S2D but instead can ally 1/4 with the God specific factions based on the Clan.
Pestilins: Nurgle
Skyre: Tzeentch
Moulder: Khorne
Eshin: Slaanesh
Verminus: Beasts
Masterclan: Can mix different Skaven Clans but looses the 1/4 allies.

This will give some variety in different ally options between forces while also giving certain limitations. But most importantly it makes Slaves to Darkness feel again like the crossroads for various chaos worshipers. Ideally I would also like certain named characters from the old world to gain the Slaves to Darkness Keyword alongside their Godspecific one such as Sigvald and the Glottkin.

If GW were to do this I would buy a start collecting set for Demons of Khorne, Demons of Slaanesh, a box of Dragon Ogors and the inevitable Plastic Shaggoth. To create some varied and themed lists based around certain marks. I also think Chaos Dwarves would work well as a Slaves to Darkness expansion. But I don't think GW wants my money...

I also want Demon Prince's to become mages with Khorne prince's becoming Priests.  I also really want the Eye of the God's table to get a massive rework along the lines of points for other chaos factions. 

Edited September 2, 2021 by Neverchosen

[NinthMusketeer]

On 8/31/2021 at 5:44 PM, Neverchosen said:

This WD update for S2D alongside our countless expansions made me wonder what will be carried forward. For those who play 40k were the updated rules throughout 8th edition such as characters, rules and subfactions from Psychic Awakening included in the 9th edition codices? 

In other words can we expect the rules from Broken Realms and Wrath of the Everchosen to carry forward into our eventual tome?
 

Going by the precedent set with previous AoS rules expansions, yes they will be carried forward. Generally there are small updates here and there but the bulk of the content is preserved.

[Charleston]

15 hours ago, annarborhawk said:

Agreed. Chaos Knights - at a minimum - should be made to be a reasonably effective hammer unit with even a modest buff. And if they need to be made 200 pts along with it, I'd be more than happy.

While we all agree here, I am afraid this wont happen as many people already own knights so buffing them won't boost sales that much

[JackStreicher]

Just now, Charleston said:

While we all agree here, I am afraid this wont happen as many people already own knights so buffing them won't boost sales that much

Yup. I figure that’s actually a big reason behind the decision making process.

example Grave Guard: Arguably the best hammer in the book, yet old models -> followed up by a start collecting to shift old stock.

[W1tchhunter]

55 minutes ago, Charleston said:

While we all agree here, I am afraid this wont happen as many people already own knights so buffing them won't boost sales that much

I mean if the new start collecting box knights where put into a box by themselves with weapon options people would buy them. Same for the warriors.

[NinthMusketeer]

The whole concept is just an urban legend; the evidence overwhelmingly shows there is no intentional buffing/nerfing of models to support sales.

[Leafs]

On 9/1/2021 at 8:51 AM, Holy_Diver said:

Yeah, that's can easly be the other face of the coin.

But before the leaks of the new rules, I wanna read some of your (mean anybody of course) wishes about Slaves 3.0.

Mine:
- KoTET untouched. They are so, so good now. If I can exagerate I'll say: choose a Circle for the General.
- Everchosen must say that you can deploy every CHAOS MORTAL unit from other tomes and give them SLAVE TO DARKNESS keyword.
- Despoilers maybe a new Command ability: at the end of the movement phase, players can't set up new units whitin 12" from this model. Until your next movement phase.
- Ravagers are nice, but if I can choose something new, I'll say: the ability to activate "Rally" in close combat and "run and charge" for Marauders.
- Idolators can grant the Warshrine Hero, so can be your general.
- Cabalists are the only ones imho that need an heavy rework. Cabalist must have flat bonuses for cast/dispel (other than the ritual), new command traits and artifacts, plus wizards can cast 2 Endless at round.

My largest gripe with the STD battletome is there seems to be a canyon between the power levels of our models in the lore/ appearance to the actual warscrolls. I don't care if our models are expensive, its inexplicable that our 7 ft tall Satan worshipping murder vikings with tree trunk arms in cursed plate armor wielding deamon forged weapons must endure the humiliation of doing a fraction of the damage of skinny little lumineth boys because sunsteel weapons.

Also change the slaanesh mark as now "on 6" effects like mortal wounds do not stack with the exploding 6s, making that mark useless. 

Edited September 4, 2021 by Leafs

[Neverchosen]

On 9/4/2021 at 12:43 AM, Leafs said:

My largest gripe with the STD battletome is there seems to be a canyon between the power levels of our models in the lore/ appearance to the actual warscrolls. I don't care if our models are expensive, its inexplicable that our 7 ft tall Satan worshipping murder vikings with tree trunk arms in cursed plate armor wielding deamon forged weapons must endure the humiliation of doing a fraction of the damage of skinny little lumineth boys because sunsteel weapons.

I mean Lumineth are magic infused immortals wielding arcane weapons who were ingested and tainted by a God worshipped by the 7ft tall Satan worshippers... So I actually am pretty fine with their current rules. My issue lies within our own unit parity, namely that the heavily armed and armoured ascendant warriors of the gods are relatively worthless next to a horde of half naked barbarians largely overlooked by the same gods.

[Scurvydog]

On 9/4/2021 at 6:43 AM, Leafs said:

change the slaanesh mark as now "on 6" effects like mortal wounds do not stack with the exploding 6s, making that mark useless. 

Much of the book is a mess now thanks to this and wards. Mark of chaos undivided, chaos rune shields and warshrine wards, none of them stack anymore. They need to review the marks and I hope the new stuff in the WD will address this, for good and bad, marks are just really not balanced well at all, now more than ever. 

Unfortunately there is most likely no new warscrolls coming, so don't expect any fixes to runeshields for example. I still dont get why so many units can't take marks, when it is basically the only allegiance ability STD has.

Lucky for StD there are some powerful warscrolls in the book and added on, right now demon princes of khorne are just everywhere, Archaon and Belakor are obviously both good too, but the books power relies mostly on these few very strong heroes, but is rather meh otherwise. Nobody plays StD like a "real army", with massed warriors and knights for example, they are just poor and lacks impact. The 10 man rule for warriors, especially after increasing points and making 10 for 200, really hurt them a lot, as taking 400 points of dudes with no rend might be an OK anvil, but simply too many points for a blob that does very little of anything.

Looking forward to seeing what they have come up with, it would make no sense to make such a battletome update if it was just stuff that could have been FAQed I guess...

[Holy_Diver]

4 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

Much of the book is a mess now thanks to this and wards. Mark of chaos undivided, chaos rune shields and warshrine wards, none of them stack anymore. They need to review the marks and I hope the new stuff in the WD will address this, for good and bad, marks are just really not balanced well at all, now more than ever. 

Unfortunately there is most likely no new warscrolls coming, so don't expect any fixes to runeshields for example. I still dont get why so many units can't take marks, when it is basically the only allegiance ability STD has.

Lucky for StD there are some powerful warscrolls in the book and added on, right now demon princes of khorne are just everywhere, Archaon and Belakor are obviously both good too, but the books power relies mostly on these few very strong heroes, but is rather meh otherwise. Nobody plays StD like a "real army", with massed warriors and knights for example, they are just poor and lacks impact. The 10 man rule for warriors, especially after increasing points and making 10 for 200, really hurt them a lot, as taking 400 points of dudes with no rend might be an OK anvil, but simply too many points for a blob that does very little of anything.

Looking forward to seeing what they have come up with, it would make no sense to make such a battletome update if it was just stuff that could have been FAQed I guess...

I agree on most of your thoughts, but not on the chaos warrios. Thay are very tough in a blob of 20, they are a bit overcost, but you can buff them very badly in defence of a objective.

[annarborhawk]

21 hours ago, Holy_Diver said:

I agree on most of your thoughts, but not on the chaos warrios. Thay are very tough in a blob of 20, they are a bit overcost, but you can buff them very badly in defence of a objective.

I've only had a few games at 3.0 - but I agree with this. Two 20-man Tzeench Warrior blocks, sitting on two objectives, are very difficult to shift. With support from a Warshrine and Sorcerer Lord(s) -it's more than half your list. But that makes you at least equal on objective scoring - turning the game into who can get more Battle Tactics.  I build the list around how am I going to achieve a Battle Tactic each turn. So I've been doing that - and avoiding fielding any monsters to avoid giving my opponent that extra points for killing them.

The other thing I'd add is a combo that's been working for me is Curse on the Warnshrine to cast on whomever is trying whittle down a warrior blob and Eight-fold Doom Sigil - buffing the warrior blob with an extra attack. It makes the warriors almost as effective as Chosen vs. the unit trying to shift them.

In general, though, It makes for kind of boring, defensive, games - but if you're not going Archaon et al, that's our best chance winning IMO with an old-school, sword-and-board Warriors of Chaos Army.

[annarborhawk]

So aside from wish-listing, any predictions on the update?  

6-pages seems like a lot, but I figure 2 will be for Path to Glory, 2 will be Battle Plans or something else we don't need/care about, and then it leaves only 2 pages for re-written Allegiance Abilities.

So I'm guessing that means they leave the Eye of the Gods as well as the Damend Legion rules as they are.

I think they tweak the spells. And I think they totally rework the Mark system. My guess would be Marks give a unit an inherent buff w/o needing to be by a hero, and an extra buff if close a hero with the same mark.

 

[Holy_Diver]

31 minutes ago, annarborhawk said:

So aside from wish-listing, any predictions on the update?  

6-pages seems like a lot, but I figure 2 will be for Path to Glory, 2 will be Battle Plans or something else we don't need/care about, and then it leaves only 2 pages for re-written Allegiance Abilities.

So I'm guessing that means they leave the Eye of the Gods as well as the Damend Legion rules as they are.

I think they tweak the spells. And I think they totally rework the Mark system. My guess would be Marks give a unit an inherent buff w/o needing to be by a hero, and an extra buff if close a hero with the same mark.

 

My take, as I said, is that they will rework Sub Allegiances (maybe also new core battallions and secondary missions dedicated).
And I hope in a power up.

Edited September 9, 2021 by Holy_Diver

[Grimrock]

28 minutes ago, Holy_Diver said:

My take, as I said, is that they will rework Sub Allegiances (maybe also new core battallions and secondary missions dedicated).
And I hope in a power up.

They did specifically mention core battalions in the announcement, so they should definitely be in there. I'm really curious what they're going to look like since we're not really missing anything like SoB were. It'll be the first real look into what they're planning on for the core battalion system, could be anything from a simple repackage of the existing ones that let you take different combinations (like a warlord battalion that doesn't require any sub commanders but needs 3 troops) to full blown warscroll battalion abilities. 

[azdimy]

I do not believe they ll update our battletome allegiance abilities. This would be done in an faq not a white dwarf. The white dwarf may include some new sub factions with new sub allegiances however which would be nice. I personnally would like to see one for each chaos god plus undivided but that s probably unlikely we get that many

[W1tchhunter]

Sooo, new stormcast rules really make our battleline look like weak pieces of ****** huh. Especially the chariots  

Edited September 10, 2021 by W1tchhunter

[Archion89]

Just now, W1tchhunter said:

Sooo, new stormcast rules really make our battleline look like weak pieces of ****** huh. Especially the chariots  

Yeah I saw that.  Really puts it into perspective.  We need an updated battletome to keep up with warscrolls like that.

[NinthMusketeer]

Eh, a SCE chariot should be more badass than an StD one. Blessed by the gods they may be (well, one of the riders) but an StD chariot is still something constructed and crewed by mortals. The SCE chariot is not only constructed in divine forges, but the individuals riding it are the elites of an already elite order of warrior-immortals. A thunderstrike SCE is as much to a basic Chaos Warrior as said warrior is to a Marauder.

But that leads back to my first sentence. It is OK for the SCE version to be more badass, but the StD version isn't even any amount of badass to start with and that's the problem across the army. Hell without the extra wound warriors would be worth less than marauders, and even that is only because marauders have a ludicrously overpowered charge ability rather than decent stats.

[W1tchhunter]

9 hours ago, NinthMusketeer said:

Eh, a SCE chariot should be more badass than an StD one. Blessed by the gods they may be (well, one of the riders) but an StD chariot is still something constructed and crewed by mortals. The SCE chariot is not only constructed in divine forges, but the individuals riding it are the elites of an already elite order of warrior-immortals. A thunderstrike SCE is as much to a basic Chaos Warrior as said warrior is to a Marauder.

But that leads back to my first sentence. It is OK for the SCE version to be more badass, but the StD version isn't even any amount of badass to start with and that's the problem across the army. Hell without the extra wound warriors would be worth less than marauders, and even that is only because marauders have a ludicrously overpowered charge ability rather than decent stats.

Yeah i totally agree with you, well said. I also think our chaos chosen units should be on par with the SCE elite units. I'd argue that it's harder to become a Chaos chosen than be cherry picked by sigmar same goes for our heroes really barring Archaeon and the Crackerjack they are all pretty squishy, we definitely don't have a hammer wielding maniac capable of 4 damage swings

My biggest annoyance (and this is me probably being petty :P) is the fact that the Hounds pulling it have 6 attacks! Hit and wound on 3s! And have -2 rend! And then we've got our most elite soldiers the varanguard who are riding on steroid buffed ripped horses with teeth the size of swords hitting on 4s 3s and 0 rend haha. 

Edited September 11, 2021 by W1tchhunter

[Holy_Diver]

19 hours ago, NinthMusketeer said:

Eh, a SCE chariot should be more badass than an StD one. Blessed by the gods they may be (well, one of the riders) but an StD chariot is still something constructed and crewed by mortals. The SCE chariot is not only constructed in divine forges, but the individuals riding it are the elites of an already elite order of warrior-immortals. A thunderstrike SCE is as much to a basic Chaos Warrior as said warrior is to a Marauder.

But that leads back to my first sentence. It is OK for the SCE version to be more badass, but the StD version isn't even any amount of badass to start with and that's the problem across the army. Hell without the extra wound warriors would be worth less than marauders, and even that is only because marauders have a ludicrously overpowered charge ability rather than decent stats.

We teorically have some comparison already:
Kharkadrak and Varanguards are dark version of Dracoth units; Chosen might be compared to dark paladins and Warriors to Liberators. And know what? GW still owes us a big ass dragon.
The "army wide 3+ save" is another thing: there Slaves can only deploy bigger units to counter this type of characteristic (here comes the Marauders). 

Reading the new battletomes, I think our coming 6 pages of update will be: 2 for allegiance abilities and enchantments, 1 for sub allegiances, 1 for bonus primaries and secondares, 1 for battallions and 1 for path to glory.
I'm ready to say goodbye to the 80% of our artefacts.

[NinthMusketeer]

I think StD's in the future will keep their basic 4+ for chaos armor, units with shields will have a 3+ save since that is the direction shields are going in for 3rd edition (about time), and heroes will have their 3+ by default for being heroes.

As for offensive stats tbh just increasing the rend of everything by 1 would go the majority of the way to fixing things.

TBF to the SCE chariot, it is 3 attacks per gryph-charger, and the stat line is the same they always had on palladors except they lost MWs on 6s to hit (good riddance). But as compared to Varanguard... well the Varanguard weapon options are a mess. Three choices of which one is obviously superior coupled with impotent attacks on mounts that look like they should fight at least as well as a low-grade hero on their own.

[Holy_Diver]

On 9/11/2021 at 10:42 PM, NinthMusketeer said:

TBF to the SCE chariot, it is 3 attacks per gryph-charger, and the stat line is the same they always had on palladors except they lost MWs on 6s to hit (good riddance). But as compared to Varanguard... well the Varanguard weapon options are a mess. Three choices of which one is obviously superior coupled with impotent attacks on mounts that look like they should fight at least as well as a low-grade hero on their own.

What's the point on Varanguard weapons? Mounts are the fluff and ok, but the other profiles? 😕

[NinthMusketeer]

Right now there isn't one, the daemon weapons are just better.

[Archion89]

While this sets off many lore bells...there's nothing stopping me for giving a khorne daemon prince in Idolators the Arcane tome to cast flaming weapon on his axe for added carnage?