AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion

[Rors]

I'd disagree.. I mean early AoS didn't even have points and back in fantasy battles days the difference between armies was HUGE and often a lot of armies only had one good build. If you look at the tournament results, there's still bias to certain army lists, but there's way more variety.

1 minute ago, JackStreicher said:

It‘s just the same as it‘s always been?

 

[Salyx]

In my opinion you cannot compare WHFB to AoS, because WHFB had no Mission System, it was just "kill anything that moves". In AoS you can be tabled and still win. This relativises the strength of several armies. The strong armies, however, combine both killing Power and bodies on the table to capture Objectives (Fyreslayers, Tzeentch, Skaven, Cities, Seraphon, by the way: All of them,except the naked Dwarves can shoot really well). 

Regarding this, Slaves should not be a weak army. Marauders are a strong unit with many bodies. The shooty meta, however, is an exact counter to them. If the meta shifts again, Slaves can become more powerful again. In fact, you are forces to play Nurgle atm for the - 1 to Hit. 

Edited November 10, 2020 by Salyx

[JackStreicher]

2 hours ago, Rors said:

I'd disagree.. I mean early AoS didn't even have points and back in fantasy battles days the difference between armies was HUGE and often a lot of armies only had one good build. If you look at the tournament results, there's still bias to certain army lists, but there's way more variety.

 

True but they way you put it there would be less of a difference in win-rate among the best faction and the worst ^^ (the margin is, still, immense)

[Rors]

Yeah shooting seems to be really hard to ballance. It has the same issues as an alpha strike army because it does damage immediately, so the game can get resolved before any tactics are used. Weaken it too much though and it makes a phase irrelevant. I think there needs to be a 'fog of war' that impedes 1st turn shooting or a serious decrease in average shot range or something.

[annarborhawk]

8 minutes ago, Rors said:

Yeah shooting seems to be really hard to ballance. It has the same issues as an alpha strike army because it does damage immediately, so the game can get resolved before any tactics are used. Weaken it too much though and it makes a phase irrelevant. I think there needs to be a 'fog of war' that impedes 1st turn shooting or a serious decrease in average shot range or something.

Deepkin rule would do it; you have to shoot at closest enemy unit. Maybe make an exception for Monsters.

[Ragest]

3 hours ago, annarborhawk said:

Deepkin rule would do it; you have to shoot at closest enemy unit. Maybe make an exception for Monsters.

So we swap from shooting problem to magic problem, because you place some bricks of heavy infantry and free spells from the unkillable 5 wounds dude.

Or imagine a Cathallar with Syar’s artifact no shootable. Goosebumps.

No, making invulnerables is not te way. Give some infantry something like you cant run or charge but gain covering, work on terrain, nerf shooting in double turn with some “-“ because of fatigue. So many non exploitable ways to try to solve this.

Edited November 11, 2020 by Ragest

[Archion89]

What would a StD heavy khorne army look like using the Blades of Khorne book?  Is it mostly just the leaders you're using?

[Agent of Chaos]

1 hour ago, Archion89 said:

What would a StD heavy khorne army look like using the Blades of Khorne book?  Is it mostly just the leaders you're using?

Chaos Knights, Marauders and even warriors get really nasty with khorne buffs; an extra attack or two, +1 to hit, +1 save, rerolling wounds and extra movement are all welcome buffs.

Even a chaos chariot starts to earn its points when you whip it with a bloodstoker.

[Rors]

The k

15 hours ago, Archion89 said:

What would a StD heavy khorne army look like using the Blades of Khorne book?  Is it mostly just the leaders you're using?

The khorne battalion says one leader + khorne units, so you can include more than one leader.

I haven't tried it, but khorne despoiler demon prices are killy, have a great CA and always strike first. Chuck in a lord and a secrator and you get get a unit of Marauders, warriors or knights into an insane number of attacks.

In general though, if you can get your hands on it, blood secrators are great for khorne STD.

 

[Charleston]

Khorne Alligience provides with Goretide a really nasty way of buffing the Lord on Manticore in one big bad evil blender with "Hew the Foe" and one Mortal Khorne Artifact. I imagine a Bloodstoker to be really really nasty when leashing up a unit of marauders to sprint across the board

[Neverchosen]

On 11/10/2020 at 5:44 AM, Rors said:

I'd disagree.. I mean early AoS didn't even have points and back in fantasy battles days the difference between armies was HUGE and often a lot of armies only had one good build. If you look at the tournament results, there's still bias to certain army lists, but there's way more variety.

 

I feel like this is absolutely true and something people seem to forget about Fantasy. Certain armies and builds were functionally impossible to win with but at least in AOS you can be absurdly lucky and squeak out a win against a meta list with a fun or flavourable list. 
Now I think the issue is more directly tied to redundancies and the various ways to play armies. I love me some Undivided Chaos Warriors but I know that my army would be more successful if I ran it as a Disciples of Tzeentch or Hedonites of Slaanesh force. The issue is that if I did that those armies still have better options than my warriors. Similarly it seems much better to use Stormcast in a Cities army but then there would again be many better options. So it isn't that Slaves to Darkness is bad but that other options are simply better. But I would still prefer that then surviving one round of magic against my friend's Lizardmen in 6th edition.

I just bought a Gaunt Summoner and I am looking forward to using it in my army but I am also aware that it would be better to just use that as a pivoting point into Disciples of Tzeentch. I am also curious about a question I asked when first joining but want to reiterate as the book was fairly new at the time. I can use my Gaunt Summoner to Rally the tribes in a Ravager army? There was some debate at the time, but most people agreed that I should be able to do so.

Edited November 13, 2020 by Neverchosen

[Neverchosen]

I was also curious which God-specific army does a Slaves to Darkness army best lead into? I am thinking Slaanesh due to their lack of Mortal followers. If I am to build my army forward into a god specific faction I would probably go Tzeentch as I enjoy the lore and I believe that Slaves to Darkness units mitigate some of Tzeentch's weaknesses.

(I plan on sticking with Slaves to Darkness this is both as a hypothetical and as a possible new project but one I can start playing much sooner than a completely new army. Although, I am also considering getting Marauder Horseman and Mindstealer Sphiranx or the Chariot Box instead of a demon start collecting box).

Edited November 14, 2020 by Neverchosen

[Roark]

On 11/13/2020 at 8:19 AM, Agent of Chaos said:

Chaos Knights, Marauders and even warriors get really nasty with khorne buffs; an extra attack or two, +1 to hit, +1 save, rerolling wounds and extra movement are all welcome buffs.

Yeah, I love and use all of these. I tried to evangelise about Knights a few pages back and was summarily poopooed. They're easily the hardest-hitting unit in any of my lists, so I use 15 of them (5+10). They're even better in StD with a couple of Khorne allies if you can wrangle them into StD auras.

[Arthe]

3 hours ago, Roark said:

Yeah, I love and use all of these. I tried to evangelise about Knights a few pages back and was summarily poopooed. They're easily the hardest-hitting unit in any of my lists, so I use 15 of them (5+10). They're even better in StD with a couple of Khorne allies if you can wrangle them into StD auras.

How do you play them ? i'm a new player, I own 15 knights. 5 currently have lances, 5 ensorcelled weapons. I'm not sure if I should mount the remaining 5 with lances or ensorcelled weapons.

[The World Tree]

Chaos Knights are very nice. I don't rate them so much offensively (too swingy with lances, unless pumped up with buffs) but the amount of high quality wounds you get with decent movement is wonderful.

[Skarband]

Hi i have StD can build strong cavalary list? Varanguard? Chaos knights? I try to find strong cavalary army 

[Dankboss]

50 minutes ago, Skarband said:

Hi i have StD can build strong cavalary list? Varanguard? Chaos knights? I try to find strong cavalary army 

My brother runs Ruinbringer Warband and it's decent.

[The World Tree]

 

Varanguard in Host of the Everchosen are brutal.

[WHYGW]

I think it would have been pretty good if idolator owned the artifacts and warshrine could have used idolators pray.

If the idolator was the way I said above, among the dammed legions that have come out so far, he could have strengthened the armored friends we wanted.

But GW messed up our sixth sub-factor which could be the last.

They ruined the warscroll without giving a mark to the warcry warband (except some fang, unmade, etc.)

I couldn't strengthen Chosen and Chaos Warriors anywhere in Batalion and Sub-Faction.

Indeed, the Chosen is the equivalent of the city's greatsword and hammer.
But he has fewer models per unit per inch (less attacks)
You can't stand as a battleline.

I wanted chaos in armor. very sad

[Scurvydog]

6 hours ago, WHYGW said:

Indeed, the Chosen is the equivalent of the city's greatsword and hammer.
But he has fewer models per unit per inch (less attacks)
You can't stand as a battleline.

I wanted chaos in armor. very sad

The chosen I will agree are very lackluster and serves no purpose in even a semi optimized list.

Warriors, knights and varanguard all got their place though. 

Chaos warrior units are good anvils, especially with their reroll saves at 10+ models makes for a tanky 15 man unit, 270 pts for 30 wounds with rerolling 4+ saves and 5+ save against mortal wounds is pretty decent. Their base attack profile is not great, but can become decent with buffs and marks. Especially in a plague touched warband these guys will bring good value with their ability to tank and as a result get the chance to reflect more MWs. Marauder often end up with bravery issues, especially keeping a hero in range when they charge 10"+ is very difficult and chaos warriors needs less hero support to stick around.

Chaos knights are decent for their points now, they are not stand out army defining units as they once were and like hearthguard, witch aelves etc are for others, but they are a solid battleline choice. 

Varanguard needs to be built around, but empty throne varanguard are great, being heroes makes it much easier to spread around mark auras and the grasping plate artifact is a game changer entirely, it is just so good. If brough along Archaon in an everchosen host, their damage output can become nuts. Running an empty throne list with Varanguards and knights, with warriors as an anvil can work fine, of course marauders can do the trick as well, but the warriors are far from unplayable at least.

[Roark]

23 hours ago, Arthe said:

How do you play them ? i'm a new player, I own 15 knights. 5 currently have lances, 5 ensorcelled weapons. I'm not sure if I should mount the remaining 5 with lances or ensorcelled weapons.

I always use lances to maximise the output in one big punch. But that means partnering them in tag-teams, because they're pretty rubbish in static combat. I always play Khorne. I can't speak to the other Marks/Gods, nor a mixed line-up.

When charging, I always want them to be buffed with the following, which affect both rider and mount:

1. Either of the mounted Lords' "Knights of Chaos" command (+1 to Hit, reroll charge)

2. Undivided Shrine blessing or Chaos Sorcerer Lord's "Daemonic Power" spell (reroll hits and wounds)

3. Bloodsecrator ally's "Portal of Rage" (+1 attack) (NB: any friendly Sorcerers need to keep >16" away from this guy)

These buffs are easy to apply, they make Knights hit like a tonne of bricks. There are further buffs that can be applied, but they're harder to line up (Bloodstoker ally's +3 to charge, StD Khorne General's aura of +1 to wound) and, in any case, you want to share buffs among your other hammer units, like Marauders, or maybe Chosen.

If the Knights destroy their target (which they frequently do) and are not engaged, then great. I don't mind retreating them, though, and charging a hurt or crippled enemy with the partner unit. Movement 10 means they can set up again after a retreat quite nicely.

Screens and chaff help them a lot in general.

This is based on my personal experiences, but that includes obliterating plenty of supposed tarpits. Almost everything I've read here about Chaos Knights with lances has been pretty negative, but I love em. Hope you have a similar experience.

[Charleston]

On 11/15/2020 at 10:42 AM, Arthe said:

How do you play them ? i'm a new player, I own 15 knights. 5 currently have lances, 5 ensorcelled weapons. I'm not sure if I should mount the remaining 5 with lances or ensorcelled weapons.

@Roark 's Post gives a good insight I can recommend, althrough I have a slighthly different approach:

I use 5 with Lances and 5 with Enscrolled Weapons. Both have their perks and roles. In general I suggest you play with 5 ES and 5 lances for a time and find out what makes you most fun before assembling the others.

Enscrolles Weapons don't have the "Wow, -2 Rend 2D on charge" Bonus, but their profile is quite Reliable and works great with the Mark of Slaanesh and Nurgle.  They are fast, durable and their output ain´t bad at all. I like to use them to contest objectives that are more far out.

Lances meanwhile are far worse when unbuffed, but each buff let´s them hit like a fright train. Biggest issue is the fact that you really really need the charge to get that better profile. I always use the following buffs:

• lord on DM or Karkadrak for his CA: It provides you with a Charge reroll. Also, it buffs your quite unreliable 4+ to hit into a 3+ to hit.
• Khorne general Aura provides a to hit reroll of ones and also lifts the wound toll to a 2+

Safe-Rerolls from oracular vision are a thing I always provide depending on how fight order is supposed to work out, but it is a buff always worth taking as soon as you charge. The Bloodstroker Buff is also worth concidering if you are into Khorne. If you want to go with Lances and other Gods I highly recommend the Deamonic Power of the Sorcerer or the Warshrine Buff for the rerolls. It´s not like Khorne is mandatory to make them work. Indeed, exploding hits with Slaanesh and additional Damage with Nurgle can really increase the damage output

 

[Arthe]

Thank you both @Roark and @Charleston.

I also have a lord on DM, a warshrine, a sorcerer and a bloodsecrator. My plan was indeed to play StD with the nurgle mark (plaguetouched) and also try khorne with the bloodsecrator.

The teleport spell can I think also be interesting to make knights with lances charge again. But now I have to wait the end of the lockdown due to the covid to be able to test all of this

@Roark Could you share one of your khorne list ? Bloodstocker, bloodsecrator and sorcerers  (which will not be marked khorne) will not provide auras, is it an issue ?

Here is my WIP warshrine (some elements are still not glued):

Edited November 16, 2020 by Arthe

[Ragest]

I use 1x 10 knights with lances, near of the lord on karkadrak to receive hero aura and ca, and the rest with ensorcelled with my general (a daemon) to take the +1 attack and some chaos warriors to farm objectives or screening.

 

Your first turn of charges is just a massacre, and the opponent has to focus your crazy cavalry to stop that flank, giving you time to move the other block to gain map control.

From that, your gameplay consist on just holding objectives as much as you can.

[Kurrilino]

On 11/15/2020 at 3:59 AM, Skarband said:

Hi i have StD can build strong cavalary list? Varanguard? Chaos knights? I try to find strong cavalary army 

I still use them very effectively 4 units by 5 with lances and Nurgle.

I always have 2 charging with the other 2 wating behind them. Next round i retread from combat and let the other 2 units charge.

They are supported by Chaos Lord and Chaos lord on mount for +1 to hit and double attacks.

The rest of the army is some blobs of 25 chaos warriors to hold objects and warshrine

I usually take festus for the -1 armor to opponents if it gets off. That means -3 reand to enemies when knights charge