AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion

[JackStreicher]

4 hours ago, W1tchhunter said:

Am I missing something here?

No you are missing nothing.

 

Gas anybody tested S2D in a Tzeentch army? Are they fun to play there?

[Orodhen]

What do you guys think about the Anvil of Apotheosis? The +1 to saves ability from the champion archetype could work well with a block of warriors.

[frostfire]

The twisted dominion says despoilers  daemon princes and monsters are unaffected, does it means that my daemon princes can see through the pitch black terrain while my opponent cannot see the daemon princes?

[Gistradagis]

3 hours ago, frostfire said:

The twisted dominion says despoilers  daemon princes and monsters are unaffected, does it means that my daemon princes can see through the pitch black terrain while my opponent cannot see the daemon princes?

Yes.

[frostfire]

42 minutes ago, Gistradagis said:

Yes.

But doesn't the "unaffected" means that the the pitch-black rule doesn't apply to despoilers daemon princes all the time?  That means when the daemon princes can see and can be seen through the pitch black terrain because he is "unaffected", is that right?

[MitGas]

11 hours ago, Orodhen said:

What do you guys think about the Anvil of Apotheosis? The +1 to saves ability from the champion archetype could work well with a block of warriors.

Oops, thought it was the Tzeentch thread, sorry - it's a very good suggestion however!

Edited August 1, 2020 by MitGas

[JackStreicher]

2 hours ago, frostfire said:

But doesn't the "unaffected" means that the the pitch-black rule doesn't apply to despoilers daemon princes all the time?  That means when the daemon princes can see and can be seen through the pitch black terrain because he is "unaffected", is that right?

No.

Units that can‘t see through are affected by the rule. A model does not have to be affected by the rule in order to not be seen by units being affected by the rule.

You are suggesting that the demon prince somehow un-effects affected units

Edited August 1, 2020 by JackStreicher

[The World Tree]

22 hours ago, Smooth criminal said:

I think you can do that with big blobs of marauders who get battleshock immunity.

Don't see why would you pass up circle buff on varanguard but whatever.

God how I wish the circles were available to all hosts. Or at the very least, Empty throne.

[Gistradagis]

6 hours ago, frostfire said:

But doesn't the "unaffected" means that the the pitch-black rule doesn't apply to despoilers daemon princes all the time?  That means when the daemon princes can see and can be seen through the pitch black terrain because he is "unaffected", is that right?

No, because the status is from the scenery, not the DP. A "cursed" scenery blocks LoS, then each model makes a check to see if they are affected. A DP trying to see through the terrain is unaffected by it, and so can see through. Another unit trying to see through is not unaffected, so they have no LoS through the terrain.

[Tiberius501]

Hey guys, been a long time away from Sigmar but coming back with both Lumineth and considering getting a pair of Start Collecting Chaos boxes now that I can make an army with them. But I was wondering if the list would be any good?

Leaders

- Archaon

- Lord on Lizard

Battleline

- 10x Chaos Warriors 

- 10x Chaos Warriors

- 10x Chaos Knights

- 3x Varanguard 

It would all have the Khorne keyword I think and be Hosts of the Everchosen. 

Edited August 4, 2020 by Tiberius501

[readercolin]

1 hour ago, Tiberius501 said:

Hey guys, been a long time away from Sigmar but coming back with both Lumineth and considering getting a pair of Start Collecting Chaos boxes now that I can make an army with them. But I was wondering if the list would be any good?

Leaders

- Archaon

- Lord on Lizard

Battleline

- 10x Chaos Warriors 

- 10x Chaos Warriors

- 10x Chaos Knights

- 3x Varanguard 

It would all have the Khorne keyword I think and be Hosts of the Everchosen. 

Not really.

First issue - the start collecting boxes don't give you any banners/musicians, which means that you will either need to kitbash them or you will need to source those from elsewhere.

Second issue, the knights come with lances.  Objectively, the lances are terrible.  Yes, they do slightly more damage on the charge, but significantly less when they aren't charging.  To make it worse, with or without lances, you don't really have enough damage to reliably clear off whatever you charge, which means that you are going to be having to rely on the damage of the non-charging knights the following turn to finish it, and they really can't.

Third issue - Chaos warriors should only be brought in groups of 5 for MSU, or groups of 15+.  For 5 models, you are bringing them because they are 90 points for battleline.  For 15, they are enough of an anvil that they can be worth bringing (ish).  However, for a 10 man unit, your opponent only has to deal 2 damage and then you lose your save re-rolls.  For a 15 man unit, you at least have 12 wounds buffer with your save re-rolls.  Without the re-rolls though, the warriors are a wet noodle and aren't durable enough to be worth their points.

You might be able to make a list that is mildly competent with those models just by re-arranging your units.  Something like this:

Archaon (general)
Karkadrak
20 Warriors
10 Knights
3 Varanguard

However, you are still going to be better served by changing the warriors out for something like marauders, and swapping the Karkadrak out for something like a sorcerer lord on manticore, or getting a warshrine in, or something along those lines.  On the other hand, if you are looking at this as a way to start your army, then you can look to try your list and then expand it out from there.

[Charleston]

3 hours ago, readercolin said:

Second issue, the knights come with lances.  Objectively, the lances are terrible.  Yes, they do slightly more damage on the charge, but significantly less when they aren't charging.  To make it worse, with or without lances, you don't really have enough damage to reliably clear off whatever you charge, which means that you are going to be having to rely on the damage of the non-charging knights the following turn to finish it, and they really can't.

I am not sure if this isn´t a bit hard of a judgement. Actually Knights with Lances work as quite nice as a hammer if you manage to use them right. Althrough I have to admit that they need a ton of support. My usual support package is:

• Lord on Mount/Karkadrak for Charge Reroll and +1 to Hit
• Khorne General Aura+Mark for 1 to hit reroll and +1 to wound.
• optional: DP of Khorne with CA to prevent countercharges.
• optional: Bloodsecrator/Bloodstroker

Buffed this way they have a solid 2 Hits 3+/2+/-2/2 with a reroll to hit of 1. In addition Ponies also hit better.

[Eldarain]

It can work but far too many things can launch themselves from zone to zone or out of deep strike/reserve to rely on getting the charge. 

Given the absurd power disparity out there it's not at all unreasonable for Knights to get Lances on the Charge Ensorcelled otherwise. I'm sick of some factions having pros and cons to balance while others are wall to wall fandex level power without compromise.

[Khendall]

Hi fellow Chosens, what do you think of this list ?

 

Damned Legion - Host of the Everchosen - Third Circle

Archaon The Everchosen - Whispers of Chaos - Mark of Nurgle : 800 pts

Harbinger of Decay - ally : 160 pts

Varanguard x3 - Deamonforged Blades - Mark of Nurgle: 280 pts

Varanguard x3 - Deamonforged Blades - Mark of Nurgle: 280 pts

Chaos Warriors x5 - Hand Weapon & Shield - Mark of Nurgle: 90 pts

Chaos Spawn - Mark of Nurgle: 50 pts

Chaos Spawn - Mark of Nurgle: 50 pts

Chaos Spawn - Mark of Nurgle: 50 pts

Chaos Spawn - Mark of Nurgle: 50 pts

Plaguetouched Warband : 180 pts

 87  LP -  1990 / 2000 pts

 

=> 2 drops, -1 hit (-2 on Varanguards) for missiles, 7'' not wholly within 5+ FnP Aura with the Haringer of Decay, the +1 dmg on 6s to wound + the 6s melee hits returning mortal damages with the battalion

[Tiberius501]

@readercolin, thanks for that reply, some good points. I’ll see what I think when I get to potentially buying it but yeah it doesn’t sound like it’s that good.

[whispersofblood]

11 hours ago, Charleston said:

I am not sure if this isn´t a bit hard of a judgement. Actually Knights with Lances work as quite nice as a hammer if you manage to use them right. Althrough I have to admit that they need a ton of support. My usual support package is:

• Lord on Mount/Karkadrak for Charge Reroll and +1 to Hit
• Khorne General Aura+Mark for 1 to hit reroll and +1 to wound.
• optional: DP of Khorne with CA to prevent countercharges.
• optional: Bloodsecrator/Bloodstroker

Buffed this way they have a solid 2 Hits 3+/2+/-2/2 with a reroll to hit of 1. In addition Ponies also hit better.

At this point why are you taking knights as the hammer at all? Or why not just play Blades of Khorne?

As they currently are knights need one more attack on their profile for both weapons to be used in a shock unit. It's better to just consider them as faster chaos warriors and select a better unit for the heavy combat unit.

[Sonnenspeer]

5 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

At this point why are you taking knights as the hammer at all? Or why not just play Blades of Khorne?

Because we want to use the cool units we spend ages on to paint them  😭

Edited August 5, 2020 by Sonnenspeer

[whispersofblood]

9 minutes ago, Sonnenspeer said:

Because we want to use the cool units we spend ages on to paint them  😭

You should. But, that doesn't mean you can force it to be something it isn't. Knights have a lot of in game strengths. Primary combat unit isn't one of them, trying to make them one will just make you frustrated with the whole book.

[Salyx]

1 hour ago, whispersofblood said:

At this point why are you taking knights as the hammer at all? Or why not just play Blades of Khorne?

As they currently are knights need one more attack on their profile for both weapons to be used in a shock unit. It's better to just consider them as faster chaos warriors and select a better unit for the heavy combat unit.

 

You may as well Mix and Match them to your liking. In Slaves to Darkness, you can make them 2+ rr1 to Hit, 2+ to wound and can just ally in Bloodstoker and Bloodsecrator for rr wounds and +1 attack. The only surplus a Khorne army offers them is +1 save prayer, but then you would Lose rr1 to Hit and +1 to wound. 

[JackStreicher]

1 hour ago, whispersofblood said:

select a better unit for the heavy combat unit.

We don‘t have one, that‘s the issue.

Marauders? They are fine but die to a whim.

Chaos warriors Are another bad and slow anvil.

Our monsters are outdated overcosted and overpriced rubbish that are locked to a certain deity

... well we just don‘t have anything that deals damage except for Archaon.

Edited August 5, 2020 by JackStreicher

[whispersofblood]

5 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

We don‘t have one, that‘s the issue.

Marauders? They are fine but die to a whim.

Chaos warriors Are another bad and slow anvil.

Our monsters are outdated overcosted and overpriced rubbish that are locked to a certain deity

... well we just don‘t have anything that deals damage except for Archaon.

Marauders are the combat unit. They don't need to survive they just need to make sure they break whatever they charge to the point that they can't get through the defence of S2D scoring units. Knights are very tough, so make very good scoring units. The key is Marauders don't need much support to do they thing they do, and have access to double pile-in.

[JackStreicher]

7 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

Knights are very tough

I disagree. If they had the 3+ save they are supposed to have they would be tough. Mine however just die (4+ is actually pretty bad for elite units, like all Stormcast players will confirm) 🤷🏼‍♂️
If your opponent is smart they‘ll try to shoot the Marauders down until they‘re pillowfisted as well (my experience) and then you are left with a black-clad, overcosted, nice looking, pile of shame that calls itself „chaos warriors“.

I am sorry, this Battletome makes one really bitter about the game 😕

Edit: This Book would have been great in AoS 1. For AoS 2 however it plainly sucks and does not do the army any justice.

Edited August 5, 2020 by JackStreicher

[whispersofblood]

4 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

I disagree. If they had the 3+ save they are supposed to have they would be tough. Mine however just die (4+ is actually pretty bad for elite units, like all Stormcast players will confirm) 🤷🏼‍♂️
If your opponent is smart they‘ll try to shoot the Marauders down until they‘re pillowfisted as well (my experience) and then you are left with a black-clad, overcosted, nice looking, pile of shame that calls itself „chaos warriors“.

I am sorry, this Battletome makes one really bitter about the game 😕

Edit: This Book would have been great in AoS 1. For AoS 2 however it plainly sucks and does not do the army any justice.

Toughness is about effort not the raw stats. 

The price decrease in knights makes them pretty annoying to remove at their point cost. Usually the best method of removing such units is MW and Battleshock which knights are resistant against. 

Knights takes effort to remove which means combat generally. Even Sentinels will struggle against knights thanks to their shields. You just have to have specific use in mind for these sorts of units, take enough to do that job and not a single one more. But I can very easily see 2*5 knights in a competitive army build designed to play the Battleplans.

[readercolin]

17 hours ago, Charleston said:

I am not sure if this isn´t a bit hard of a judgement. Actually Knights with Lances work as quite nice as a hammer if you manage to use them right. Althrough I have to admit that they need a ton of support. My usual support package is:

• Lord on Mount/Karkadrak for Charge Reroll and +1 to Hit
• Khorne General Aura+Mark for 1 to hit reroll and +1 to wound.
• optional: DP of Khorne with CA to prevent countercharges.
• optional: Bloodsecrator/Bloodstroker

Buffed this way they have a solid 2 Hits 3+/2+/-2/2 with a reroll to hit of 1. In addition Ponies also hit better.

Apparently you didn't read back where I did a more in depth review of knights and their weapon loadouts.  Here is it for a fresh review.

Looking at just the weapons (separating the ponies damage out, because that is going to be the same across loadouts), without buffs a unit of knights will do the following:

Ensorcelled Weapons: 7.11 damage to a 6+ save, 4.74 damage to a 4+ save
Lances (charging): 7.33 damage to a 6+ save, 6.11 damage to a 4+ save
Lances (no charge): 3.06 damage to a 6+ save, 1.83 damage to a 4+ save.
Ponies (all): 2.08 damage to a 6+ save, 1.25 to a 4+

This means that before we start counting bonuses, ensorcelled weapons do almost as much damage to 6+ save chaff as lances, while doing 1.37 damage less to a 4+ save.  However, as soon as you are stuck in combat for more than a round, we can see that the ensorcelled weapons jump FAR ahead - especially against tougher units.  Additionally, there is one last point that REALLY stands out.  If you add up all the damage, neither loadout will allow a unit of knights to go through a 10 wound block of infantry on average.

But wait, you say - BUFFS!  Well, lets look at those.  However, first, a word of caution.  After 4 months of playing with Knights (would be more, but the virus has kind of halted my gaming...), I will say that unless you are being VERY selective, you really, REALLY need an 18" aura to get that mark of chaos buff consistently.  Otherwise the knights have a tendency to charge out of your 12" bubble due to their enormous bases.  But numbers, we want numbers.

Khorne General Aura:

Ensorcelled Weapons: 10.37 damage to a 6+ save, 6.91 damage to a 4+ save
Lances (charging): 10.69 damage to a 6+ save, 8.91 damage to a 4+ save
Lances (no charge): 4.46 damage to a 6+ save, 2.67 damage to a 4+ save.
Ponies (all): 3.24 damage to a 6+ save, 1.94 to a 4+

Here we can see that with a set of buffs, we can finally go through a 10 wound infantry squad on the charge.  Yay knights!  Ok, if they are a 4+ save squad, there will be 1 guy left on average with the ensorcelled weapons.  Of course, if its a 20 man squad, the ensorcelled weapons can go through them in 2 rounds of combat, while the lances will do a lot of damage on the first attack and then take another 2 rounds after that to finish off the squad.  Yay.  Of course, you could have a chaos lord on foot nearby to allow them to pile in and attack twice, but slaves are so CP starved that you can't do this regularly - and you probably have better units to use it on (if he's even in range to do it).  Also, doing that precludes putting the Karkadrak buff on them as well.  Speaking of which, lets add that karkadrak buff:

Khorne General Aura + Karkadrak buff:

Ensorcelled Weapons: 12.96 damage to a 6+ save, 8.64 damage to a 4+ save
Lances (charging): 14.26 damage to a 6+ save, 11.88 damage to a 4+ save
Lances (no charge): 5.94 damage to a 6+ save, 3.56 damage to a 4+ save.
Ponies (all): 4.32 damage to a 6+ save, 2.59 to a 4+

Yay, we can now go through a 10 wound squad of infantry with a 4+ save.  For a 6+ save, lances can almost go through a 20 wound squad (~18.5 wounds on average).  Course, against a 4+ save, the ensorcelled weapons can get through it in 2 rounds of combat, while the lances are going to be 1/2 a point of damage short on average.

Overall, if you can consistently get a charge off every single one of your turns, the lances MIGHT be worth bringing, as long as you have all the buffs.  Without the buffs, the lances are too pillow-fisted to actually go through a target though, so you can't really recommend them.  However, this is assuming that you can get a charge off consistently.  From my own playing with them, this seems unlikely, because their 10" move makes them really, really slow for a cav unit.  Unless of course you have a Khorne Daemon Prince about who is making it hard for your opponent to charge, in which case the charges get much easier.  Of course, that is CP's spent on that though, which means that you aren't really going to be able to do that AND provide Karkadrak buffs.

[JCar09]

 

Knights with spears have 2''  and playing them in a unit of 10 is the difference.

Edited August 5, 2020 by JCar09