AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion

[Freejack02]

I'm pretty hyped for the Ogroid Theridons - been a big fan of the Thaumaturge for years. Hope they're pointed competitively and not irrelevant right out of the gate!

On 5/2/2022 at 12:56 AM, Beliman said:

The dmg potential of Ogroid Theridons seems awesome. With Great Axes (and only 5+ save...), they can hit stronger than Fulminators.

Any numbers on that? I'm not really seeing how they hit harder, they look to be roughly equal if they pop Savagery - curious if there's something I missed. 

[Agent of Chaos]

4 hours ago, Freejack02 said:

Any numbers on that? I'm not really seeing how they hit harder, they look to be roughly equal if they pop Savagery - curious if there's something I missed. 

They can take mark of khorne so an allied bloodsecrator and/or wrathmongers can add up to +2 attacks.

[Ravinsild]

So can we use the 5+ ward save that is on the Chaos Lord on Manticore, Karkadrak, Chaos Warriors etc and then use the Shrines 6+ ward save is that fails or nah? 

[ChaosUndivided]

@Ravinsild the 5+ save after save is only for mortal wounds not normal wounds, where as the warahrine is 6+ for both but you can only ever have one save after the save, they dont stack whether actual "ward" or not.

 

Im curious if the marks of chaos buffs will remain the same, they have always seemed rather mundane and uninspired to me even if thematically appropriate. I wouldnt mind if the new battletome actually incentivized  mixing them up more.

[Rors]

I really hope the book either has more access to more rend or mortal wounds. This is what really holds the current book back.

It would also be great if the vast hords of cults got better inclusion into the book with keyword synergies.

[Khendall]

What do you think of this list guys ?

[Ravinsild]

How does the Ravager’s Battle Trait work in which every mortal hero gets a command trait? Are they all active all the time or does it activate only when they’re a General? i know you can swap General throughout the game. So do you have to choose who you want to be General and then get the Benefit of their command trait then? 
 

As an example, I have my Chaos Lord on Karkadrak with Bolstered by Hatred. He’s currently the General. His wounds characteristic is 11 when he’s the general. 
 

I then choose my Chaos Lord on Manticore to be the General and he has Eternal Vendetta. In the previous battle round could he re-roll wound rolls? Is my Chaos Lord on Karkadrak’s wound characteristic back to 9 now? 

Edited May 9, 2022 by Ravinsild

[ChaosUndivided]

@Khendall why not battle regiment? You could make your 7 drop into 4, heck you could squeeze it all into 1 drop if you wanted.

If you're running despoilers i would suggest you make Belakor the general for the 5+ ward save, or even Archaon.

The list seems really light on bodies for the objective game, i dont have experience with Splinter Fang but i imagine those guys are gonna evaporate under pressure.

 

@Ravinsild all the command traits you choose for Ravagers are always active from start of battle regardless if that hero is currently general or not. You can also choose from the list of universal ones found on page 92 of generals handbook, i suggest Master of Magic.

[Khendall]

46 minutes ago, ChaosUndivided said:

@Khendall why not battle regiment? You could make your 7 drop into 4, heck you could squeeze it all into 1 drop if you wanted.

If you're running despoilers i would suggest you make Belakor the general for the 5+ ward save, or even Archaon.

The list seems really light on bodies for the objective game, i dont have experience with Splinter Fang but i imagine those guys are gonna evaporate under pressure.

Could go for 2 drops (Archaon + the rest of the army, cause 2 commanders) indeed, don't know if it was the biggest game changer

Be'lakor is indeed a Daemon Prince for the 5+ ward, but not Archaon.
But since the MVP here is the "Aoe /2 run & charge MASTER", better give it to him. Because you don't want him to get ez wiped thanks to a random spell or aoe, since he's constantly hiding in the pitch-black shadows.

Running two monsters is a welcoming chance to do some Ferocious Advance with 3 monsters thanks to Metamorphosed DP.

Spinter Fangs went good with their MW on 6 + reroll 1s (praise Khorne), since doing damage is our biggest weakness in STDs.

Varanguards are always nice with Archaon, doing MW on 6 too, tanky with their 3+ => 2+ save reroll 1s (Tzeentch).

Be'lakor is The Show Stopper, as always, you can easily cancel a Ferocious Advance or other tactics with his Dark Mastering, and he's aggroing so much attention from your opponents, giving Archaon some welcoming space.

Archaon is still The Man, if only I were more lucky with the Slayer of Kings (not a single proc), could have done much better.

Still, I did 2-1 with this list, got a Sylvaneth and a Lumineth ! (praise the STD DP aoe + pitch-black), I've just lost against a damn FEC with his 500 summoning bats on Power in Numbers map (worst of all).

The only thing that did nothing was, you name it, the Horrorghast, too bad I couldn't run a Mindstealer Sphiranx for the -2 bravery combo (damn that Archaon point increase), I will trade it for an Emerald Lifeswarm for even more healing next time.

[Ravinsild]

Is Belakor a good beat stick centerpiece? 
 

How useful would you say a chaos Warshrine is? Would you consider it mandatory for every list or could you go without? 
 

Are Fomoroid Crushers worth their points as a ranged threat and for MW? 
 

Trying to build a Chaos list with a huge beat stick combat monster center piece themed around the chaos warrior variants. Chaos Warriors, Chaos Knights, Chaos Chosen, Chaos Lords of all variety. I was thinking something like this:

Army Faction: Slaves to Darkness
    - Army Type: Ravagers
    - Grand Strategy: Dominating Presence

LEADER

Be'lakor (360)*
    - Spells: Ruinous Vigour

Chaos Lord on Karkadrak (225)*
    - General
    - Command Traits: Eternal Vendetta
    - Artefacts: Cloak of the Relentless Conqueror
    - Mark of Chaos: Khorne

Chaos Sorcerer Lord (135)*
    - Command Traits: Master of Magic
    - Spells: Whispers of Chaos
    - Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch

BATTLELINE

1 x Chaos Warriors (400)*
    - Chaos Hand Weapon and Chaos Runeshield
    - Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch

Chaos Knights (170)*
    - Cursed Lance and Chaos Runeshield
    - Mark of Chaos: Khorne

Chaos Knights (170)*
    - Cursed Lance and Chaos Runeshield
    - Mark of Chaos: Khorne

ENDLESS SPELL

Eightfold Doom-sigil (50)

OTHER

1 x Chosen (290)
    - Mark of Chaos: Khorne

Fomoroid Crusher (100)*

Fomoroid Crusher (100)*

CORE BATTALIONS:

*Battle Regiment

TOTAL POINTS: (2000/2000)

Created with Warhammer Age of Sigmar: The App

However if I dropped the Crushers I have no idea what to put in their place. Do you think this list could do anything at say, for instance, Nashcon? It’s the largest tournament in the southeast of the US is what they say. 

[Lord Krungharr]

1 hour ago, Ravinsild said:

Is Belakor a good beat stick centerpiece? 
 

How useful would you say a chaos Warshrine is? Would you consider it mandatory for every list or could you go without? 
 

Are Fomoroid Crushers worth their points as a ranged threat and for MW? 
 

 

 

Belakor is pretty solid, not sure if I'd say a beatstick.  More like a wet towel to wrap around someone else's beatstick with his oncepergame trick, ignoring rend to his saves, and Enfeeble Foe.  Good in combat to be sure though.

If you're running bigger units of slower dudes then the Warshrine becomes more useful, just depends on the build really, but not mandatory I don't think.  Cheaper ways to get a Priest (allied Skaven Plague Priest  or SlaughterPriest).

I have tried using 2 Fomoroids, and they really did very little.  They weren't too good in a direct frontline shock assault despite their ogor-type charge effect.    One is probably more useful as a havoc wreaker giving them something to think about.  I'd run it straight up a flank to get into the back field to do monstery stuff (like taking an objective if possible at 5 wound model count, going after a weakling hero, smashing faction terrain).  Seek out a spot of terrain near multiple units and do the earthquake, but only if the opportunity arises that won't do damage to your own units (I made that mistake too!).  Give it a wingman in the form of an allied Cockatrice too

Edited May 10, 2022 by Lord Krungharr

[Ravinsild]

1 hour ago, Lord Krungharr said:

 

Belakor is pretty solid, not sure if I'd say a beatstick.  More like a wet towel to wrap around someone else's beatstick with his oncepergame trick, ignoring rend to his saves, and Enfeeble Foe.  Good in combat to be sure though.

If you're running bigger units of slower dudes then the Warshrine becomes more useful, just depends on the build really, but not mandatory I don't think.  Cheaper ways to get a Priest (allied Skaven Plague Priest  or SlaughterPriest).

I have tried using 2 Fomoroids, and they really did very little.  They weren't too good in a direct frontline shock assault despite their ogor-type charge effect.    One is probably more useful as a havoc wreaker giving them something to think about.  I'd run it straight up a flank to get into the back field to do monstery stuff (like taking an objective if possible at 5 wound model count, going after a weakling hero, smashing faction terrain).  Seek out a spot of terrain near multiple units and do the earthquake, but only if the opportunity arises that won't do damage to your own units (I made that mistake too!).  Give it a wingman in the form of an allied Cockatrice too

So Bel’akor would be good against say Morathi, or a Megaboss on Maw-Krusha or that big destruction god guy, Krondos or whatever? 
 

I just bought two because they had ranged attacks and looked pretty good for 100 points. However if they’re not good I’m not sure what I would do. I guess bring 10 more chaos warriors? 200 points is an awkward spot haha. 

Edited May 10, 2022 by Ravinsild

[Khendall]

10 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

So Bel’akor would be good against say Morathi, or a Megaboss on Maw-Krusha or that big destruction god guy, Krondos or whatever? 
 

I just bought two because they had ranged attacks and looked pretty good for 100 points. However if they’re not good I’m not sure what I would do. I guess bring 10 more chaos warriors? 200 points is an awkward spot haha. 

Be'lakor dies, always, they always focus him, even if he's weak as hell. He's a level 2 sorcerer with The Dark Master Ability and that's it.

14 hp, 4+ etheral save, he can tank one weak attack maybe, as long as there aren't some mortal wounds around.

Be'lakor vs Morathi => Be'lakor nuggets

Be'lakor vs Maw-Krusha => Be'lakor wings

Be'lakor vs Kragnos => Be'lakor kebab

If you want him to live more the 1 round => Despoiler him behind a pitch-black terrain or go play his Legion of The First Prince.

 

What Be'lakor is good for : 

Preventing the enemy from succeeding tactics, locusing some death stars, getting all the aggro, finishing some half dead battlelines, throwing some spells or endless spells, snitching objectives.

 

If you plan on 1v1ing some big guys (or snake-females), Archaon will be more than pleased to take his stand

You got it bro

[Khendall]

12 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

Is Belakor a good beat stick centerpiece? 
 

How useful would you say a chaos Warshrine is? Would you consider it mandatory for every list or could you go without? 
 

Are Fomoroid Crushers worth their points as a ranged threat and for MW? 
 

Trying to build a Chaos list with a huge beat stick combat monster center piece themed around the chaos warrior variants. Chaos Warriors, Chaos Knights, Chaos Chosen, Chaos Lords of all variety. I was thinking something like this:

Army Faction: Slaves to Darkness
    - Army Type: Ravagers
    - Grand Strategy: Dominating Presence

LEADER

Be'lakor (360)*
    - Spells: Ruinous Vigour

Chaos Lord on Karkadrak (225)*
    - General
    - Command Traits: Eternal Vendetta
    - Artefacts: Cloak of the Relentless Conqueror
    - Mark of Chaos: Khorne

Chaos Sorcerer Lord (135)*
    - Command Traits: Master of Magic
    - Spells: Whispers of Chaos
    - Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch

BATTLELINE

1 x Chaos Warriors (400)*
    - Chaos Hand Weapon and Chaos Runeshield
    - Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch

Chaos Knights (170)*
    - Cursed Lance and Chaos Runeshield
    - Mark of Chaos: Khorne

Chaos Knights (170)*
    - Cursed Lance and Chaos Runeshield
    - Mark of Chaos: Khorne

ENDLESS SPELL

Eightfold Doom-sigil (50)

OTHER

1 x Chosen (290)
    - Mark of Chaos: Khorne

Fomoroid Crusher (100)*

Fomoroid Crusher (100)*

CORE BATTALIONS:

*Battle Regiment

TOTAL POINTS: (2000/2000)

Created with Warhammer Age of Sigmar: The App

However if I dropped the Crushers I have no idea what to put in their place. Do you think this list could do anything at say, for instance, Nashcon? It’s the largest tournament in the southeast of the US is what they say. 

Anything that starts with "Chaos...someting" => drop it (save it for our next v3 BT next Winter)

[Ravinsild]

3 hours ago, Khendall said:

Anything that starts with "Chaos...someting" => drop it (save it for our next v3 BT next Winter)

Lol then what’s left? 
 

That said I’m trying to min/max a themed list which is the Chaos Warrior variants, or in other words min/max models I think look cool instead of what’s truly meta because I don’t like chaos marauders. 
 

i am also looking to play a new army because I’ve been playing my Ironjawz almost exclusively since 2017. STD seem similar. Chaos Warriors = ArdBoyz. Chaos Chosen = Brutes. Chaos Knights = Gore Gruntas. Chaos Sorcerer Lord = Warchanter (important buff piece). 
 

There is no Megaboss on Mawkrusha hero but I was hoping Belakor or a Chaos Lord on Manticore might come somewhat close. 
 

Also in my games I’ve learned having a resilient wall of bodies helps a lot, especially with a 6+ ward save (I learned this in AoS 2 running Big Waaagh and also shields on ArdBoyz). I also learned the counter punch strategy. Every single game I ran out yolo and “alpha strike” at my opponent with my Mawkrusha and Gore-Gruntas they would kill some chaff or screens and then get surrounded by my opponents turn and die immediately, however if I deployed as far back as possible and waited for them to move an important piece out into the open I could then strike and cripple their army. 
 

So for me, my playstyle, and my experience Chaos <something> seems like a fun alternative to Ironjawz that isn’t too different and looks extremely cool. That’s why I went for Chaos <something> for a durable, elite army that on paper according to the Warscrolls looks like some things can hit hard like chaos knights on the charge like Gore-Gruntas. 

Edited May 10, 2022 by Ravinsild

[ChaosUndivided]

@Ravinsild Khendall is kinda right. Basically all competitive s2d builds have some combination of Archaon, Belakor, Varanguard, Demon Prince, and warcry cultist. 

The Chaos Lord and Sorcerer on foot are great buff pieces but will be quickly deleted in a competitive matchup against skilled opponent, otherwise i would put them in any list.

Chaos Warriors and Knights will leave you disappointed most of time. Tzeentch marked warriors can stick around awhile but cant shift opponent and will crumble once they loose the 10+ model buff. Khorne marked Knights can pack a punch on the charge but will otherwise struggle to hurt anything and charging is not a guarantee and rarely will happen more than once a game.

I have had good experience with Chosen but mostly when taking Archaon for the fight on death ability cuz they will drop like flies and are extremely vulnerable to shooting.

The Warshrine is ok if you're taking blobs of warriors or knights it can support but really doesn't have a place competitively. I love this model and use it often but usually feels like the points would have been better spent elsewhere.

The Sorcerer on Manticore is actually a solid choice, i like to give him Arcane Tome, Flaming Weapons spell, and Master of Magic trait, however, this is another guy i never see in top table competitive list.

If you're not crazy about Marauders perhaps try giving Iron Golems and Untamed Beast a look. They are good for their points but ultimately you're gonna have to turn to things like Varanguard if you actually want to punch a hole thru your opponents front lines.

[Agent of Chaos]

@Ravinsild not much point going Ravagers with only 2 mortal heroes. If you want to stick with that list I would drop at least one of the crushers for another hero, purely to summon another unit of marauders. Otherwise go Despoilers so Belakor has a 5+ ward, chance to heal and pitch black terrain. 

I agree with everything Chaos Undivided said. The warshrine is OK in a casual game but not great competitively. Its aura reduces massively after only a few wounds. The buff prayer is nice but doesnt come close to pushing our mediocre warscrolls up to Iron Jaws levels of damage output. 

A khorne daemon prince is pretty much essential for controlling the table and pairs well with Belakor's dark master. May as well enjoy the khorne DP while we can as come the new tome that ability is gone.

[Lord Krungharr]

Competitive doesn't have to mean placing in the top 5 at a tournament.  That said, yes, Archaon plus other stuff is the best way to do that.

Barring that, Belakor isn't a wet noodle, but he doesn't want to be up front and center (which is presumably why he's lord of the shadows   )  I had much trouble killing him with my Sons of Behemat.....although that was in a 3000 point game and he also had all 4 named Greater Daemons, and tons of pink horrors.  Oh that was a terrible game.  I digress.

2 Fomoroids can be fine, but they won't be MVPs probably.  I like that kit (and the Sphiranx) cuz they can make two different versions.  Actually one could be converted into a brutal thug of a Daemon Prince, that might be pretty cool!  And in winter with the new tome, they could be even more useful (both the Fomoroid and Daemon Prince).  Hopefully they keep the strike first rule in general, though I thought I saw they're getting less attacks?  That would suck, unless their points go down or get some other fantastic rules.

My StD is in remission until the new book comes out though.   Gotta practice with my Dwarves.

[Agent of Chaos]

@Lord Krungharr Daemon Prince is confirmed to have lost strike first. It is now a heroic action for the undivided Daemon Prince only. In addition the DP now only has one weapon option; axe or sword or claws. He was far from a melee powerhouse before so no idea why GW saw fit to nerf his melee profile. Very hard to see anyone running DP of Khorne, Slaanesh or Undivided given their abilities are all melee based and the melee profile is weak.

In fact once the new tome drops the only DP I foresee getting any use is a Nurgle marked one for turning off ward saves and maybe the Tzeentch one as a double cast wizard (with arcane tome). Of course much will depend on the sub factions, spell lore, marks of chaos and any other new allegiance abilities they give us.

Ironically the nurgle DP is now great at fighting Maggotkin of Nurgle which makes about as much sense as the Khorne DP healing when he kills things... because Khorne is about healing right???... sigh...

[Ravinsild]

Overall I guess I’d say I fell in love with Chaos due to Chaos Warriors and their ilk so I am trying to make them work and in my experience with Ironjawz having 4+ save 6+ ward save multiwound boys (who also have a better attack at 3/3/0/1 over the ArdBoyz too now) can be pretty tough to shift. Chaos Knight are worse than Gore-Gruntas but Varanguard are almost double price. 
 

It felt like STD were the defensive version of Ironjawz because Ironjawz are weak to shooting and mortal wound spam, but a lot of STD stuff has 5+ save vs mortal wounds and everyone can get the 6+ ward not just Warriors (I’d kill for 6+ ward on Brutes or GGs). Only thing they don’t have is a chaos Mawkrusha but I don’t want half my list to be Archaon.. 

 

[Khendall]

Do You See That, Fellow Chaos <Followers> ?

Captain of Wales is running it in the upcoming Worlds

[ChaosUndivided]

Point proven i guess? Pretty sure this is just a variation on similar list that recently done well. Its very min/max' ish like most competitive list but feels especially so. The inclusion of the Manticore made me smile tho.

Im really hoping the new Demon Prince scroll is a "typo" and instantly gets faq' but perhaps thats wishful thinking.

[Ravinsild]

Nah new Daemon Prince is straight garbage. Nice new model but I will not be getting one to replace the one I have. Why would I pay money for something that’s actively worse? 

[ChaosUndivided]

Whoa what?

The current warscroll is axe 3/3/3/-2/2 and claws 3/3/3/-/2, the new warscroll is going to be 5/3/3/-2/2 for axe. So he lost 1 whole attack but picked up -2 rend on 2 more attacks. This isnt a huge nerf to his damage output. 

I think it was pretty much understood that blood slick ground was not going to remain the same forever. As Agent of Chaos pointed out the Nurgle DP may actually be handy to keep around and i can see Tzeentch one seeing play depending on subtraction/other rules. 

Im expecting the marks of chaos get revamped and be a game changer, but can only guess.

[Ravinsild]

18 minutes ago, ChaosUndivided said:

Whoa what?

The current warscroll is axe 3/3/3/-2/2 and claws 3/3/3/-/2, the new warscroll is going to be 5/3/3/-2/2 for axe. So he lost 1 whole attack but picked up -2 rend on 2 more attacks. This isnt a huge nerf to his damage output. 

I think it was pretty much understood that blood slick ground was not going to remain the same forever. As Agent of Chaos pointed out the Nurgle DP may actually be handy to keep around and i can see Tzeentch one seeing play depending on subtraction/other rules. 

Im expecting the marks of chaos get revamped and be a game changer, but can only guess.

It also lost its +1 to hit on charge ability in addition to its innate ability to strike first, which is now a heroic action only for Chaos Undivided. So it’s lost 2 abilities straight out of the gate in addition to losing an attack and it’s damage output is worse. 
 

We have not seen the new tome with the new marks or Warscrolls for anyone else, but as it stands DP are basically alone in the tome. Every prayer, or spell or any buffs target MORTAL units so nothing but despoilers interacts with them currently. 

I think they’re just objectively worse now based on the current tome and the current DP.