AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion

[Charleston]

2 hours ago, Sugar Maple said:

Did the Idolators special units get removed from the WH AoS app? I can't find the specific heroes anywhere when trying to make a list

IIRC it was a Battalion which upgraded the Chariot to a Hero

[The World Tree]

On 12/6/2021 at 3:46 PM, Charleston said:

IIRC it was a Battalion which upgraded the Chariot to a Hero

No, it is the Idolators sub-allegiance ability that allows for it.

[Mako]

Quick question...I've just bought a box of Marauder Horsemen and there's a difference in their warscroll between that included in the building instructions and in the battletome. For example: Marauder Javelins (as a missile) have a 9" range and 2 attacks in the instruction booklet but a 12" range and 1 attack in the battletome. Which one takes precedence over the other?

[Grimrock]

19 minutes ago, Mako said:

Quick question...I've just bought a box of Marauder Horsemen and there's a difference in their warscroll between that included in the building instructions and in the battletome. For example: Marauder Javelins (as a missile) have a 9" range and 2 attacks in the instruction booklet but a 12" range and 1 attack in the battletome. Which one takes precedence over the other?

The battletome takes precedence. The rules in the box are just intended to give people something to play with right away and aren't kept up to date. I'm guessing the rules you have are from AoS 1 before the battletome was released.

[Lord Krungharr]

Wondering how I might construct an interesting Despoilers army with some of my Chaos models?  I'm thinking Despoilers for that terrain manipulation effect, plus they like Daemon Princes, and so do I 😀

For Chaos I only have a BoC army (mostly Warherd), but have allies of a Daemon Prince of Khorne and 2 Mindstealer Sphiranxes to start with.  How many other Daemon Princes and what other Mark(s) would be good?  I was thinking maybe chariots for battleline because they have that MW charging thing like the Ogors, and less to paint.  That Fomoroid guy with the terrain detonation thing is neat.  Looking for a fun bag-o-tricks style army, not necessarily super high grade tournament consistency stuff....something more....chaotic!  

Would any of my BoC allies work well with Despoilers?  A Doombull and 3 greataxe Bullgors are pretty straight forward but have the rend/high damage threat, of course they usually miss.  Guess 2 Doombulls would be better actually.  I also have a Shaggoth and 3 Dragon Ogors.  And a Cygor, who seems somewhat useful for the points now that I'm thinking about it (haven't used one in like 2 years or so).

[Archion89]

We received some point changes: https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/XTPR7PzBSVcNAAOd.pdf

 

We see:

Chariot -5

Gorebeast chariot -15

Ogroid Myrmidon -10

Fomoroid -10

Chaos warshrine +30

Chaos Sorcerer Lord +20

Archaon +30 and rule changes

 

Also in core rules FAQ we see amulet of destiny is a ward of 6+ now and heroic recovery can’t be done in melee.

 

Edited December 21, 2021 by Archion89
Corrected cost and other changes

[Xasz]

Seems harsh, considering the "unfair" armies didn't really change, Archaon DoT is no longer possible and his warscroll took a couple extra hits as well (again).

Most of the changes seem weird, especially as the successful S2D setup is actually not S2D but Legion of the First Prince (not that S2D Archaon was bad but at this point we are approaching "beating a dead horse" levels rather fast).

The 60%-win-ratio nobility will apparently take more victims until summer.

[Halkbat]

The gutting of coalition means we might finally get some strong warscrolls when the next Slaves book comes out...right?

[Xasz]

After thinking about it, maybe the play is to drop the Warshrine entirely and get more bodies or higher quality bodies instead.

The Warshrine allows access to unique features (prayers) and is a nice force-multiplier (6++ bubble, on top of being visually different to the rest of the list) but at 215 points you could upgrade a unit of Iron Golems to Varanguard, add a unit of reinforced Iron Golems + compensate other point changes, or a unit of Knights/ 2x Untamed Beasts... the Warshrine seems to be the weakest link in previous lists. Like, the Sorc Lord is not gonna go anywhere and neither is Archaon. Only other option would usually be downgrading a unit of Varanguard or clipping other battlelines.

How does the hive mind feel about this, is the Warshrine too essential and this is crazy talk?

Edited December 23, 2021 by Xasz

[Agent of Chaos]

I do love a warshrine but its damage chart is brutal!

3 wounds and that ward save aura shrinks to 12". At 185 that was acceptable but at 215 I start to question it...

[drcrater]

My theory for the point increase of the warshrine is because of the universal prayers (probably the healing one). I'm not saying that is justified, but that is probably the reason.

[Grimrock]

2 hours ago, drcrater said:

My theory for the point increase of the warshrine is because of the universal prayers (probably the healing one). I'm not saying that is justified, but that is probably the reason.

Do you really think so? I've used a decent number of priests since 3rd dropped and I have yet to actually cast a universal prayer. The undivided prayer on the warshrine is just so so much better, I don't think I'd every really want to except in some weird edge case scenarios. I was assuming the point hike was kind of a targeted nerf to Archaon since the shrine and sorcerer are so good with him. 

 

7 hours ago, Xasz said:

After thinking about it, maybe the play is to drop the Warshrine entirely and get more bodies or higher quality bodies instead.

The Warshrine allows access to unique features (prayers) and is a nice force-multiplier (6++ bubble, on top of being visually different to the rest of the list) but at 215 points you could upgrade a unit of Iron Golems to Varanguard, add a unit of reinforced Iron Golems + compensate other point changes, or a unit of Knights/ 2x Untamed Beasts... the Warshrine seems to be the weakest link in previous lists. Like, the Sorc Lord is not gonna go anywhere and neither is Archaon. Only other option would usually be downgrading a unit of Varanguard or clipping other battlelines.

How does the hive mind feel about this, is the Warshrine too essential and this is crazy talk?

Definitely worth considering, but cutting the warshrine is a real tough call. Those rerolls are so core to getting any kind of consistent damage out. Maybe you're right though, might be worth a shot. An extra unit of varanguard in the list does sound pretty enticing.

 

Edited December 24, 2021 by Grimrock

[Rors]

Both the chariots keep going down in points each update.. at what point will they actually become viable?
 

I have a few, love the models and I really wish there was a competitive use for them. At best they seem like chaff screens the are well suited to dealing with other small chaff screens.

For the regular chariots this feels fine. Gorebeast chariots are meant to be heavy shock units that break lines.. they're slower than regular chariots and more expensive so they don't screen as well, and they're output really isn't much better. Statistically, d3 on a 2+ on the charge is slightly worse than a 5+ for each inch of charge rolled, the crew are they same and the gorebeast really isn't anything special.

I'm not sure regular chariots are worth it even with the new reduction but if that trend continues there's a break point where they become efficient chaff.

I don't think lowering cost really fixes gorebeast though. They really need a rules update, even bringing back single unit champions would help.

 

Edited December 24, 2021 by Rors

[Kurrilino]

On 12/22/2021 at 5:31 PM, Halkbat said:

The gutting of coalition means we might finally get some strong warscrolls when the next Slaves book comes out...right?

I assume you just started playing Chaos 😁

 

[Agent of Chaos]

I dont mind chucking 1 or 2 chariots in at 100pts but usually with a khorne allied Bloodstoker as the increased charge roll helps with the mortal wounds and the threat range is bonkers, especially if combined with the despoilers command trait paragon of ruin.

I think they would need to be 70-80 points to really see them as viable in a competitve sense. 

[Kurrilino]

1 hour ago, Rors said:

Both the chariots keep going down in points each update.. at what point will they actually become viable?
 

I have a few, love the models and I really wish there was a competitive use for them. At best they seem like chaff screens the are well suited to dealing with other small chaff screens.

For the regular chariots this feels fine. Gorebeast chariots are meant to be heavy shock units that break lines.. they're slower than regular chariots and more expensive so they don't screen as well, and they're output really isn't much better. Statistically, d3 on a 2+ on the charge is slightly worse than a 5+ for each inch of charge rolled, the crew are they same and the gorebeast really isn't anything special.

I'm not sure regular chariots are worth it even with the new reduction but if that trend continues there's a break point where they become efficient chaff.

I don't think lowering cost really fixes gorebeast though. They really need a rules update, even bringing back single unit champions would help.

 

This is the main issue with StD

They can raise and lower point costs as much as hey want.

The real issue is the rule writing. There is absolutely no reason to play the army as intended.

If you want to be not just killed in round 2 you end up with those weird units that doesn't even fit into the StD theme in any meaning.  Beside that you have only a one trick pony at best.

All this is not solvable by point changes. Even 10 Warriors for 20 points wouldn't make them usable in any way except cluttering the board

[Rors]

25 minutes ago, Kurrilino said:

This is the main issue with StD

They can raise and lower point costs as much as hey want.

The real issue is the rule writing. There is absolutely no reason to play the army as intended.

If you want to be not just killed in round 2 you end up with those weird units that doesn't even fit into the StD theme in any meaning.  Beside that you have only a one trick pony at best.

All this is not solvable by point changes. Even 10 Warriors for 20 points wouldn't make them usable in any way except cluttering the board

I'd love to see a new book with better warscrolls.

As a synergy buff army I'd love to see the whole 'oath' thing taken further. Like say, a unit declares an oath to destroy a unit it's fighting, you get +1 to hit and wound and an extra tend BUT for every model that survives at the end of the combat phase, you take a mortal wound.

They need something to make them more powerful, but also if you just flat increased the stats it wouldn't feel that thematic or interesting.

[Xasz]

6 hours ago, Grimrock said:

Definitely worth considering, but cutting the warshrine is a real tough call. Those rerolls are so core to getting any kind of consistent damage out. Maybe you're right though, might be worth a shot. An extra unit of varanguard in the list does sound pretty enticing.

 

I am a bit torn now, after giving it some more thought.

The premiums paid for the Warshrine are starting to hurt but often the shrine adds more effective wounds than a new unit would (+ it's buffing our core units). On top of that it adds a piece that doesn't want/have to move up the board but can hang a bit back instead, which is somewhat rare in Archaon lists.

To be more practical here is an Archaon list with new points (downsized Iron Golems from previous version) and a variation without shrine.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Slaves to Darkness
- Damned Legion: Host of the Everchosen (Sixth Circle)
- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Archaon the Everchosen (860)*
- General
- Aura of Chaos: Tzeentch
- Spell: Mask of Darkness
Chaos Lord (120)*
- Reaperblade & Daemonbound Steel
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (135)*
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
- Spell: Mask of Darkness

Battleline
3 x Varanguard (280)*
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
3 x Varanguard (280)*
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
8 x Iron Golems (75)*
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch

Behemoths
Chaos Warshrine (215)*
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
- Prayer1: Universal Prayer Scripture: Curse

Endless Spells & Invocations
The Burning Head (20)

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment

Total: 1985 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 82
Drops: 1

Spoiler

Allegiance: Slaves to Darkness
- Damned Legion: Host of the Everchosen (Sixth Circle)
- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Archaon the Everchosen (860)*
- General
- Aura of Chaos: Tzeentch
- Spell: Mask of Darkness
Chaos Lord (120)*
- Reaperblade & Daemonbound Steel
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (135)*
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
- Spell: Mask of Darkness

Battleline
3 x Varanguard (280)*
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
3 x Varanguard (280)*
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
16 x Iron Golems (150)*
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Chaos Knights (170)*
- Ensorcelled Weapons
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment

Total: 1995 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 93
Drops: 1

 

Edited December 24, 2021 by Xasz

[JackStreicher]

Puh, since 3.0 and now the update my will to play S2D has been plunged into Darkness. (The new Chaos Coalition Rules …)

Anyways, what do you guys like to play as of late?

[ChaosUndivided]

The new coalition rules really only apply to S2D units in other chaos gods army. It does little to change S2D internally. So i dont see any reason to get that bummed out about it.

I think its a bad rules change myself, they could have only changed Archaon to not receive allegiance abilities and left the other S2D units alone, no harm no foul, but instead there is this redundant and unnecessary rule applied to all S2D. 

[Xasz]

It's mostly the Warshrine that keeps bugging me.

The Sorc Lord at least makes sense, as he was rather cheap to begin with (compared to similar casters) and has a strong auto-succeed ability.

Archaon nerfs and point increase on top of the Warshrine's feel a bit much, for an army that sits around a 50% win rate with only two builds (Archaon Sixth Circle, Knights of the Empty Throne).

[Rors]

It feels like the book the changes for StD we're focused on internal ballance rather than external ballance. They nerfed units that are relatively auto-takes because they're far better value than the rest of the book but I don't think they consider how these units/the book fairs into other armies.

5 hours ago, Xasz said:

It's mostly the Warshrine that keeps bugging me.

The Sorc Lord at least makes sense, as he was rather cheap to begin with (compared to similar casters) and has a strong auto-succeed ability.

Archaon nerfs and point increase on top of the Warshrine's feel a bit much, for an army that sits around a 50% win rate with only two builds (Archaon Sixth Circle, Knights of the Empty Throne).

A 50% win rate is actually what you want.

It would have been nice to see other options brought up so that there's multiple well ballanced builds rather than bringing the two ballanced builds down to parity with the rest of the book.

[Skurrow]

Hi, I'm new here and to playing AOS in general.  Though, I have been following the game for a while.  Watching batreps and such.  

I feel that I would be a horde player at heart, so its a little sad to see them falling out of vogue in AOS 3.0.

I've been looking at various horde options and was wondering how people felt about cultists now that they can gain God keywords?  Specifically the Splintered Fang.  I occasionally hear cultist units discussed and they're normally always Iron Golems and Untamed Beasts.  But Splintered Fang seem pretty good to my uninitiated mind:

- 6s to hit do mortal wounds on a front rank of 25mm models, means double ranked attacks. 

- Cheap at 11 wounds for 75 points.

- Given a Khorne mark and a Bloodsecrator ally (if I understand how allies work) basically doubles all the attacks they get (from 1 to 2)

- An allied Exalted Deathbringer brings an 18" aura of immune to battleshock (again if Khorne marked)

- Warshrines giving them the 6++ and reroll all hits allows you to fish for 6s

- A Chaos Lord on foot allows them to fight twice and, if mark of Khorne, re-roll 1s to hit (assuming no Warshrine prayer buff)

- Auto regen 2 wounds / battle round (more powerful than Troggoths as, I think,  they average about 1 and cannot return lost models).  A very minor benefit, but potentially useful.

- Many models could be great for rally

- In a non-horde meta, people might not be taking anti-horde spells and items?

- Maybe some other bonuses/synergies I'm not aware of?

I get that they're slow and fall to a soft breeze, but they're cheap because of it and I think could be quite deadly.

[sfe667]

3 hours ago, Skurrow said:

Hi, I'm new here and to playing AOS in general.  Though, I have been following the game for a while.  Watching batreps and such.  

I feel that I would be a horde player at heart, so its a little sad to see them falling out of vogue in AOS 3.0.

I've been looking at various horde options and was wondering how people felt about cultists now that they can gain God keywords?  Specifically the Splintered Fang.  I occasionally hear cultist units discussed and they're normally always Iron Golems and Untamed Beasts.  But Splintered Fang seem pretty good to my uninitiated mind:

- 6s to hit do mortal wounds on a front rank of 25mm models, means double ranked attacks. 

- Cheap at 11 wounds for 75 points.

- Given a Khorne mark and a Bloodsecrator ally (if I understand how allies work) basically doubles all the attacks they get (from 1 to 2)

- An allied Exalted Deathbringer brings an 18" aura of immune to battleshock (again if Khorne marked)

- Warshrines giving them the 6++ and reroll all hits allows you to fish for 6s

- A Chaos Lord on foot allows them to fight twice and, if mark of Khorne, re-roll 1s to hit (assuming no Warshrine prayer buff)

- Auto regen 2 wounds / battle round (more powerful than Troggoths as, I think,  they average about 1 and cannot return lost models).  A very minor benefit, but potentially useful.

- Many models could be great for rally

- In a non-horde meta, people might not be taking anti-horde spells and items?

- Maybe some other bonuses/synergies I'm not aware of?

I get that they're slow and fall to a soft breeze, but they're cheap because of it and I think could be quite deadly.

So this type of list has become a bit of a thing in tournaments recently, specifically due to the changes to Cultists in White Dwarf meaning they can now benefit from mono-God models, specifically Khorne. 

I would advise caution though. When you look at the Slaanesh and Nurgle books most of the buffs are now 'Hedonites of' and 'Maggotkin of' so you'd be a brave person to go all in on this build when a Khorne book might not be too far away. But if you happen to have the models (or money!) then crack on - the damage will be insane.

[oggurt_da_bog_zombie]

Question for those here running cultist heavy lists, Idolators, etc. 

Has anyone ever experimented with a big block of Scions of the Flame for flame pot tossing? The exploding 6s on the pot throwing makes it almost seems meme-list worthy to have a reinforced unit of them, maybe add in the shrine rerolls or Daemonic Power buff to fish for more 6s.

Math hammer-wise, the damage is there, but obviously the problem is the 8" range which means no mask of darkness yeeting them across the board to then shoot in the following phase. If the Scions could move a bit faster to get into shooting position then they seem pretty good, but the 6" move with the 8" flame pot range seems to be the main limitation.

Edited January 2, 2022 by oggurt_da_bog_zombie