AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion

[Charleston]

'Hi guys,

I need your help. I have heavy problems to adjust and find a way how to utilise my StD. Currently most games I get are either against NH or OBR which are both able to simply tank all my damage and heal with their backline. As StD have no real access to ranged damage, I fail to pick out their Support Heroes. Therefore my Question: What Tactics work for you the best with StD? I always feel like I am forced to rush into my enemy as I otherwise get too much ranged damage by spells and some weird catapults, while charging them also feels like a big issue because thex are all buffed so my units simply bounce and die.

[Gistradagis]

36 minutes ago, Charleston said:

'Hi guys,

I need your help. I have heavy problems to adjust and find a way how to utilise my StD. Currently most games I get are either against NH or OBR which are both able to simply tank all my damage and heal with their backline. As StD have no real access to ranged damage, I fail to pick out their Support Heroes. Therefore my Question: What Tactics work for you the best with StD? I always feel like I am forced to rush into my enemy as I otherwise get too much ranged damage by spells and some weird catapults, while charging them also feels like a big issue because thex are all buffed so my units simply bounce and die.

Both Daemon Princes and marauders can technically do it. A Daemon Prince can move/charge across lines thanks to flying and rush an enemy support hero, possibly killing them in one turn (for added damage, could do the classic Sword of Judgement build).

The second style is also very common across all STD styles. Get a caster with Mask of Darkness, then teleport a unit of 20/40 Marauders behind enemy lines, get the almost-certain charge off and obliterate the enemy hero and as many more units as possible before exploding the following turn.

[NJohansson]

1 hour ago, Gistradagis said:

Both Daemon Princes and marauders can technically do it. A Daemon Prince can move/charge across lines thanks to flying and rush an enemy support hero, possibly killing them in one turn (for added damage, could do the classic Sword of Judgement build).

The second style is also very common across all STD styles. Get a caster with Mask of Darkness, then teleport a unit of 20/40 Marauders behind enemy lines, get the almost-certain charge off and obliterate the enemy hero and as many more units as possible before exploding the following turn.

You can also go for heavy magic - OBR don’t like mortal wounds at all. Gaunt Summoner (or two), sorcerer lord (or two - especially the manticore one) under the cabal with a couple of endless spells could really be a problem for them (depending on Nagash or not).

[Gistradagis]

4 minutes ago, NJohansson said:

You can also go for heavy magic - OBR don’t like mortal wounds at all. Gaunt Summoner (or two), sorcerer lord (or two - especially the manticore one) under the cabal with a couple of endless spells could really be a problem for them (depending on Nagash or not).

Well, to one-shot an enemy hero, I'm not 100% sure. StD has cool spells, but not it's that great at sniping, I feel. We have tools for hordes, with whispers of chaos and the sorc on manticore (as you say), but I wonder if we're reliable enough to kill heroes.

[Bozly]

I have a ravagers question. So theres this ability

At the end of your movement phase, the model that is currently your general can summon 1 unit of 10 Chaos Marauders, 1 unit of 5 Marauder Horsemen, or 1 Cultist unit of up to 10 models wholly within 6" of the battlefield edge and more than 9" away from enemy units. A model cannot be chosen more than once per battle to rally.

 

 

so you purchase lets say irongolems in units of 8 for points and untamed beasts in units of 9, do i just make them a unit of 10? Or do they have to be their purchasing size?

[Grimrock]

4 hours ago, Charleston said:

'Hi guys,

I need your help. I have heavy problems to adjust and find a way how to utilise my StD. Currently most games I get are either against NH or OBR which are both able to simply tank all my damage and heal with their backline. As StD have no real access to ranged damage, I fail to pick out their Support Heroes. Therefore my Question: What Tactics work for you the best with StD? I always feel like I am forced to rush into my enemy as I otherwise get too much ranged damage by spells and some weird catapults, while charging them also feels like a big issue because thex are all buffed so my units simply bounce and die.

I haven't played against them with slaves specifically, but in general the two typically require different approaches. Since nighthaunt is immune to rend low number but high quality attacks can struggle, but OBR needs high quality attacks with good rend to get through their save rerolls.

As with most things your best start is buffing up marauders and throwing them in either on foot or through mask of darkness. A sorcerer lord on manticore's spell could shred down units which should help you punch through when you get to combat. For ossiarch having lance knights might work with the extra rend, and running mark of nurgle might help a touch against the catapult.

[Charleston]

1 minute ago, Grimrock said:

I haven't played against them with slaves specifically, but in general the two typically require different approaches. Since nighthaunt is immune to rend low number but high quality attacks can struggle, but OBR needs high quality attacks with good rend to get through their save rerolls.

As with most things your best start is buffing up marauders and throwing them in either on foot or through mask of darkness. A sorcerer lord on manticore's spell could shred down units which should help you punch through when you get to combat. For ossiarch having lance knights might work with the extra rend, and running mark of nurgle might help a touch against the catapult.

Thanks for the Input! Yeah, totaly forgot that -1 to hit on Nurgle General Aura! That should give me a bit room. I also concider to get a Warshrine and a Harbringer of Decay for more Resiliance (5++/6++ and chance for Nurgle Prayer) which should match the equation

2 hours ago, NJohansson said:

You can also go for heavy magic - OBR don’t like mortal wounds at all. Gaunt Summoner (or two), sorcerer lord (or two - especially the manticore one) under the cabal with a couple of endless spells could really be a problem for them (depending on Nagash or not).

Do you think so? From my experience there seem to be tons of redundant aftersaves, flat 6+ overall, a 5+ or even 4+ on some units through magic or CA´s, which seem quite a lot of resistance against Mortals to me. Nevertheless I belive that the Endless Spells have a fair Chance of actually reaching the enemy.

4 hours ago, Gistradagis said:

Both Daemon Princes and marauders can technically do it. A Daemon Prince can move/charge across lines thanks to flying and rush an enemy support hero, possibly killing them in one turn (for added damage, could do the classic Sword of Judgement build).

The second style is also very common across all STD styles. Get a caster with Mask of Darkness, then teleport a unit of 20/40 Marauders behind enemy lines, get the almost-certain charge off and obliterate the enemy hero and as many more units as possible before exploding the following turn.

Thanks a lot! I am always a bit afraid that my DP´s wont make the move or get charged and bound into meele before I get them where I need them for such a task. Nevertheless I will give it a shot! Mask of Darkness and Marauders sound currently like the autopick in most cases. I already noticed how great Mask is to get thoose sweet objectives later in the game I hope GW announces some not-ugly-marauders soon.

 

If I may bother you guys with another quastion: How do you play your Warriors in terms of equipment and unit size? Is it worth to take 20+ for the reroll?

[Gistradagis]

30 minutes ago, Charleston said:

Thanks a lot! I am always a bit afraid that my DP´s wont make the move or get charged and bound into meele before I get them where I need them for such a task. Nevertheless I will give it a shot! Mask of Darkness and Marauders sound currently like the autopick in most cases. I already noticed how great Mask is to get thoose sweet objectives later in the game I hope GW announces some not-ugly-marauders soon.

 

If I may bother you guys with another quastion: How do you play your Warriors in terms of equipment and unit size? Is it worth to take 20+ for the reroll?

You can always run the DP right behind your frontline. Then, on your turn, move with his 12" very close to the support hero, and get an easy charge off.

With Warriors, it depends on their purpose. A "static" line that's meant to exist only as an anvil, usually requires 15+ to make sure you don't lose the reroll for saves the moment one of them dies. 20 is usually not needed. If you're hurting for points, however, you can have a unit of 10 and have them protect your Sorcerer, who can then use their Oracular Visions on them every turn, giving them save rerolls despite losing their size.

PD: Personally, I run Kairic Acolytes as a conversion for Marauders (with the appropriate bases).

Edited March 1, 2020 by Gistradagis

[NJohansson]

3 hours ago, Charleston said:

Thanks for the Input! Yeah, totaly forgot that -1 to hit on Nurgle General Aura! That should give me a bit room. I also concider to get a Warshrine and a Harbringer of Decay for more Resiliance (5++/6++ and chance for Nurgle Prayer) which should match the equation

Do you think so? From my experience there seem to be tons of redundant aftersaves, flat 6+ overall, a 5+ or even 4+ on some units through magic or CA´s, which seem quite a lot of resistance against Mortals to me. Nevertheless I belive that the Endless Spells have a fair Chance of actually reaching the enemy.

It’s a game of dice and if your opponent is lucky with the saves then you will be in trouble. But what are the alternatives? I assume Petrefix (does anyone play anything else...) so you either need mortal wounds or rend. The majority of STD does not provide rend in the quantities necessary to win a war of attrition. Going Nurgle certainly helps  and you definitely could/should go for the teleport/ charge trick - but most opponents will learn/start screening to mitigate it so you still need additional threats and mortal wounds is one of our best bets. That or you need to skip warriors (they are really bad in said matchup- IMHO). Bog down with cheap units and use spells to do damage not only to heroes but to units as well. Doesn’t work as good against strong casters as Nagash (although if you go all out on casters and Cabal you actually could get through).  

Again - a lot depends on play styles, actual lists and scenarios so the above could be way of but it has worked for me:)

[Vestrial]

Thanks a lots for the advices. After considering few of them, a kick the mounted dudes and focus more on Despoiler traits.

I dont even know if that list is better or worst but I want my cool viking in big armor XD.

The Chaos Warshrine might be erase from that list, but I dont know by what I replace it if I do.

[Gistradagis]

1 hour ago, Vestrial said:

Thanks a lots for the advices. After considering few of them, a kick the mounted dudes and focus more on Despoiler traits.

I dont even know if that list is better or worst but I want my cool viking in big armor XD.

The Chaos Warshrine might be erase from that list, but I dont know by what I replace it if I do.

I wouldn't recommend the sword on your DP unless you're doing smth like giving him the Sword of Judgement. On the vanilla profile, the axe is objectively better.

The Chaos Sorcerer should be Tzeentch mark, too. Undivided gives him auto-success in battleshock, which I doubt you'll use for a single model unit. Same case for the Shrine.

Btw, do realize that your bloodsecrator is gonna ****** you once in a while unless you play him really far from your magic guys.

Edited March 2, 2020 by Gistradagis

[jackmcmahon]

The axe is not objectively better.

[Grimrock]

Actually I did a little math before building my prince and I found that for the mark of khorne the sword was better on average against almost all opponents. Less consistent for sure, but on average better.  

@Vestrial I like the list so far other than the stuff I already mentioned, I think it should be a good enough place to start. As said, you'll generally want to keep the bloodsecrator away from the wizards but that shouldn't be too difficult. Speaking of the wizards, do you have the same spell on both just in case one dies? Since mask is really only hugely important on the first turn or two when you're also going to want to cast Daemonic Power, it might not be a bad idea to put something different on the sorcerer. I've found spite tongue curse to be a handy little problem solver in the late game when Daemonic Power isn't as important. Also I'm not sure if you know, but you can use any prayer on the shrine regardless of the mark so it doesn't have to be undivided. I'd run it as khorne if I were you since it'll like the buffs the same as anyone else. 

[JackStreicher]

8 hours ago, Vestrial said:

Thanks a lots for the advices. After considering few of them, a kick the mounted dudes and focus more on Despoiler traits.

I dont even know if that list is better or worst but I want my cool viking in big armor XD.

The Chaos Warshrine might be erase from that list, but I dont know by what I replace it if I do.

Get a warmammoth and keep a kakardrak Lord with the 18“ aura artefact around. The mammoth provides map control and high rend.

[Gistradagis]

7 hours ago, Grimrock said:

Actually I did a little math before building my prince and I found that for the mark of khorne the sword was better on average against almost all opponents. Less consistent for sure, but on average better. 

If it's less consistent, then it's worse on average. That's kind of the point of consistency.

[Magnus The Blue]

42 minutes ago, Gistradagis said:

If it's less consistent, then it's worse on average. That's kind of the point of consistency.

Nope,

E.g.: If one attack does 5 damage 50% of the time (and none the rest of the time), and another does 50 damage 10% of the time (and none the rest of the time). 

The first attack is more consistent (more likely to cause some damage) but the second is much better on average (average 2.5 damage for first attach Vs average 5 damage for second attack) .

[Gistradagis]

1 minute ago, Magnus The Blue said:

Nope,

E.g.: If one attack does 5 damage 50% of the time (and none the rest of the time), and another does 50 damage 10% of the time (and none the rest of the time). 

The first attack is more consistent (more likely to cause some damage) but the second is much better on average (average 2.5 damage for first attach Vs average 5 damage for second attack) .

You compare weapons by seeing the total output, not likeliness to hit (which is a part of the process itself to see the dmg output), because doing damage is what you're interested in. In your example, the first attack is more consistent to hit, but less consistent in dealing damage. Consequently, it's a less consistent weapon for what we're interested in, which is damage.

[Magnus The Blue]

1 minute ago, Gistradagis said:

You compare weapons by seeing the total output, not likeliness to hit (which is a part of the process itself to see the dmg output), because doing damage is what you're interested in. In your example, the first attack is more consistent to hit, but less consistent in dealing damage. Consequently, it's a less consistent weapon for what we're interested in, which is damage.

I think your miss understanding the word consistent. Which means likely to produce the same result repeatedly.  I talked about total chance of doing damage rather than chance of hitting etc, to simplify the argument.  I will try another example:

Unit 1 has an ability that automatically does one mortal wound every combat phase. It is perfectly consistent, always 1 mortal wound.

Unit two has an ability to cause d6 mortal wounds, but only if you roll a 4+ first (so works 50% of the time). Less consistent (only works half the time) but much higher average damage (average 1.75 mortal wounds a turn).

If you know you only need to do one wound say to kill a character) unit one is better as it is more consistent but in many situations unit two is better as it averages a better damage output.

 

[Enoby]

12 minutes ago, Gistradagis said:

You compare weapons by seeing the total output, not likeliness to hit (which is a part of the process itself to see the dmg output), because doing damage is what you're interested in. In your example, the first attack is more consistent to hit, but less consistent in dealing damage. Consequently, it's a less consistent weapon for what we're interested in, which is damage.

To hit and damage are intrinsically linked in AoS - if an attack is 1 attack 6/6/-/100, then it's great when it goes off, but it has such a high chance of doing 0 damage that it's not particularly useful compared to 3 attacks at 3/2/-3/3. The consistency of an attack is very important to how much damage you can expect it to do, and if those two attack profiles were weapon choices on a model, I'm certain that the 3 damage weapon would be taken over the 100 damage weapon the vast majority of the time (if buffs couldn't make the 100 damage weapon more consistent). 

[Gistradagis]

8 minutes ago, Magnus The Blue said:

I think your miss understanding the word consistent. Which means likely to produce the same result repeatedly.  I talked about total chance of doing damage rather than chance of hitting etc, to simplify the argument.  I will try another example:

Unit 1 has an ability that automatically does one mortal wound every combat phase. It is perfectly consistent, always 1 mortal wound.

Unit two has an ability to cause d6 mortal wounds, but only if you roll a 4+ first (so works 50% of the time). Less consistent (only works half the time) but much higher average damage (average 1.75 mortal wounds a turn).

If you know you only need to do one wound say to kill a character) unit one is better as it is more consistent but in many situations unit two is better as it averages a better damage output.

 

Oh, I know, but that's why I spoke of damage output being what truly interests us. A DP has to choose either weapon, meaning you want the better output no matter what. Meaning that, yes, in your examples the first weapon is more "reliable" or consistent. But in profile comparing in AoS, specifically for a unit that has to choose only 1 weapon, that becomes a secondary concern to the total output. Since what we care for the DP is final damage (as it's either weapon, not both), you need to choose which one is more useful in general, for most situations; that is, which weapon is more consistent in doing what we want: damage.

When comparing profiles, you never need one wound to kill a character, you need as many as possible (especially since in AoS extra damage just moves to the next model in a unit). Consequently, you're interested in damage consistency, which is what profiles calculators will show you. So while you're lexically correct in calling the first weapon more consistent, it's not what you'll usually look for when comparing weapon profiles, where consistency will refer to damage. A consistent weapon will be one you can trust to dish reliable damage on average.

 

4 minutes ago, Enoby said:

To hit and damage are intrinsically linked in AoS - if an attack is 1 attack 6/6/-/100, then it's great when it goes off, but it has such a high chance of doing 0 damage that it's not particularly useful compared to 3 attacks at 3/2/-3/3. The consistency of an attack is very important to how much damage you can expect it to do, and if those two attack profiles were weapon choices on a model, I'm certain that the 3 damage weapon would be taken over the 100 damage weapon the vast majority of the time (if buffs couldn't make the 100 damage weapon more consistent). 

Yeah, that's why... I said it. Hit chance is part of the process when calculating damage outputs; you consider how likely a weapon is to deal damage, and take that into account for an example of a number of attacks against an imaginary target, together with other elements such as likeliness to wound, rerolls, extra MWs, etc.

When you speak of damage consistency, it 100% includes all the other types of consistency that let to that result. That 100 damage is only consistent if it has a profile that makes these 100 damage happen much more often on average than the 3 damage weapon. That's basically the idea behind comparing weapon profiles.

[DaCapo]

Hey guys

What do you think of this : 

Allegiance: Slaves to Darkness
- Damned Legion: Despoilers
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Archaon the Everchosen (800)
- Aura of Chaos: Khorne
- Spell: Whispers of Chaos
Be'Lakor (240)
Slaves to Darkness Daemon Prince (210)
- General
- Sword
- Command Trait: Paragon of Ruin
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
Chaos Lord (110)
- Reaperblade & Daemonbound Steel
- Artefact: Thermalrider Cloak
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch

Battleline
10 x Chaos Marauder Horsemen (180)
- Javelin & Shield
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
10 x Chaos Marauder Horsemen (180)
- Javelin & Shield
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
10 x Chaos Marauder Horsemen (180)
- Javelin & Shield
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
5 x Chaos Marauder Horsemen (90)
- Javelin & Shield
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 112
 

[Snakeb1te]

1 hour ago, DaCapo said:

Hey guys

What do you think of this : 

Allegiance: Slaves to Darkness
- Damned Legion: Despoilers
Mortal Realm: Aqshy
 

That's a cool list @DaCapo but I don't think it would be terribly effective.  The Marauder Horsemen that you've taken in groups of x10 melt easily to basically anything - and their low bravery (bravery 7 if in range of Archaon otherwise bravery 5) would mean you'd lose some to battleshock. 

We can see that you're trying to put together a beastie list, but then you might want to take 3 x 5 Marauder Horsemen, freeing up 360 points for other things. Gaunt Summoner for magical support perhaps?

 

Edited March 2, 2020 by Snakeb1te

[Grimrock]

3 hours ago, Gistradagis said:

You compare weapons by seeing the total output, not likeliness to hit (which is a part of the process itself to see the dmg output), because doing damage is what you're interested in. In your example, the first attack is more consistent to hit, but less consistent in dealing damage. Consequently, it's a less consistent weapon for what we're interested in, which is damage.

Exactly, and the output for the sword is higher than the axe against almost every opponent when you have the mark of khorne. The reason I said a little less consistent is the d3 damage can make it swing up or down per hit and the mortal wounds are inherently dicey, but on average it should do more damage making it the better choice if you're willing to risk the inconsistency. 

[Gistradagis]

Just now, Grimrock said:

Exactly, and the output for the sword is higher than the axe against almost every opponent when you have the mark of khorne. The reason I said a little less consistent is the d3 damage can make it swing up or down per hit and the mortal wounds are inherently dicey, but on average it should do more damage making it the better choice if you're willing to risk the inconsistency. 

Well, guess I'll have to check it again, then. Since I remember discussing it shortly after the tome release and people agreeing that the sword only made sense if coupled with smth such as the Sword of Judgement due to slightly lower damage across the table.

[Grimrock]

22 minutes ago, Gistradagis said:

Well, guess I'll have to check it again, then. Since I remember discussing it shortly after the tome release and people agreeing that the sword only made sense if coupled with smth such as the Sword of Judgement due to slightly lower damage across the table.

Yeah I ran through it again and the axe is about the same against 4+ and 5+ saves, but the sword is better against the rest. It's all rough head math but I did it by taking 6 princes of each type and just running through the averages against a given save. Honestly they're close enough that you could take whatever though.

Edited March 2, 2020 by Grimrock