AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion

[JackStreicher]

He is right however, there are two extremely competetive playstyles:

Khorne DP, hero with MoN, Plaguetouched Battallion and some Knights, heroes and such.

OR

Khorne DP, a hero with MoN, Plaguetouched Battallion and 200 Marauders

[Enoby]

To be honest, I think one of the biggest problems we have at the moment is that everything costs far too many points. Don't get me wrong, we have other issues and I'd prefer warscrolls to be moved up to match points, but for now everything feels too pricey for what it does (which really stings with lack of large unit points reductions). I really like varanguard, but without the circle buffs they feel 100 points too expensive - they're tanky-ish, but don't do enough damage or have enough tricks to make them worth 300

[Snakeb1te]

Hi guys - quick point of clarification.

Using the AoS mobile phone app, if I include Skarbrand in my S2D army he is listed as having the Aura of Khorne. 

Am I right in thinking that this is a mistake? I was under the impression that units outside this book could neither benefit from nor emit an aura.

[JackStreicher]

1 hour ago, Snakeb1te said:

Hi guys - quick point of clarification.

Using the AoS mobile phone app, if I include Skarbrand in my S2D army he is listed as having the Aura of Khorne. 

Am I right in thinking that this is a mistake? I was under the impression that units outside this book could neither benefit from nor emit an aura.

It‘s a mistake. The app is incredibly buggy and incomplete.

[whispersofblood]

The first is probably Cabalist, Fatesworn, msu chaff, magic heavy. Which only really works because of being able to summon horrors, and being nominally 1 drop with a teleport spell.

The second is probably some sort of 1 or 2 drop Ravagers, extreme msu that doesn't kill much but scores near max points every round. But I don't see how it wins something like knife to the heart, maybe with a maxed out unit knights. So Slaanesh or Khorne to retain the 1 drop. 

The problem most builds run into is that their dmg per point is very low so even if you are doing good amounts of dmg overall you are still losing the fight/battle.

Marauders are fine, but realistically unless you are going to 80-120 I don't see much point investing into the combat tree for a unit of their capacity.

[readercolin]

5 hours ago, Enoby said:

To be honest, I think one of the biggest problems we have at the moment is that everything costs far too many points. Don't get me wrong, we have other issues and I'd prefer warscrolls to be moved up to match points, but for now everything feels too pricey for what it does (which really stings with lack of large unit points reductions). I really like varanguard, but without the circle buffs they feel 100 points too expensive - they're tanky-ish, but don't do enough damage or have enough tricks to make them worth 300

So I decided to run some comparisons to another unit that recently was 300 points for a very similar effect - Evocators on Dracolines.  How do the two match up?  Well, both are 5 wound models, come in packs of 3, and are supposedly hard hitting units in an elite army.  Varanguard only have a 10" move as opposed to the dracolines 12", but in exchange they have a 3+ save instead of a 4+ save.

If we compare a bog standard unit of Varanguard, with the undivided (or tzeentch) mark or no hero's nearby, then that unit of varanguard will deal an average of 14 damage to a save of -, and 9.8 to a 4+ save.  From there, there are 4 ways to buff him.  Marks, Spells/prayers, Being in host of the everchosen, and having Archaon around.  With just marks, the best mark is Khorne, and being near the general.  Doing just that brings us up to 19.5/13.5 damage on average.  If we don't have a mark affecting our damage, but do have full re-rolls, that brings us to 24.2/16.5 damage on average.  The best mark when rocking full re-rolls is Nurgle, and that can bring us up to 29.2/19.6 damage.  Those numbers in an army with Archaon in it are 16/11.1 without other bonuses, 22.5/15.4 with Khorne Aura, 25/26.8 with just re-rolls, and 30.4/20.2 with Nurgle Aura and full re-rolls.  Lastly, if we add in the 6th circle buff + charging and Archaon in the army, we get 29/19.3 without other bonuses, 41.4/27.3 with Khorne aura, 46.6/30.2 with full re-rolls, and lastly 52/33.5 with full re-rolls and Nurgle aura.

Before comparing evokitties to this, I just want to take a moment to point out that we have a lot of ways to buff these guys, and we can increase their damage output by 3.7 times.  Additionally, once per game they can pile in and attack twice without needing a chaos lord on foot to do so, but then still do so with a command point later on if you have the chaos lord around.  Then, if this isn't enough, we can also pile on additional attacks by bringing in some Khorne allies, or pile on some additional tankiness by bringing on some nurgle allies.  

Now, lets look at those evokitties.  Kitties have a number of buffs available to them as well.  They can get d3 damage on the kitty claws just by charging.  They can get +1 to hit with a pride leader around.  They can get +1 to wound from Celestial Blades (stormcast spell).  They can re-roll failed wound rolls due to their built in spell.  They can re-roll 1's from either a command point, or charging in Celestial Vindicators stormhost.  And lastly they can get +1 attack on their models in Celestial Vindicators, or they can attack in the hero phase with Anvils of Heldenhammer.  A base unbuffed kitty squad is going to do 15 damage to a save of -, and 10 to a 4+ save (this includes the celestial lightning arc) .  Add charging, and that unbuffed kitty will be up to 19/12.6.  Pile on pride leader, celestial blades, re-roll 1's to hit, and re-roll failed wounds and that charging kitty is now up to 37/23.5 damage.  Give them +1 attack on top of all of that and we are up to 47.4/29.8 damge.

From this, we can see that without any buffs available, Kitties and Varanguard are about equal.  However, kitties can buff themselves just by charging, or casting empower on themselves, and Varanguard can't buff themselves.  If you are wanting to play varanguard without archaon around, they also can't really be buffed up to similar levels as the kitties can (which is important when your buff piece is sitting around at 800 points...).  But if you are going all in on varanguard, and bringing Archaon, then they can surpass what a block of kitties can pull off.

What conclusion can we draw from this?  To be honest, I think that they made a mistake printing the 6th circle.  Why?  The 6th circle buffs the varanguard too much, and makes the other circles fairly redundant.  If it wasn't for the 6th circle buff, the damage output of the Varanguard would be low enough that we could easily justify lowering their points so that they could be at a playable level in a non-hosts army.  We have an easy example in the Evokitties of a similar unit that wasn't worth its points at 300 points/unit, and is still questionably worth their points at 260 points/unit.  Taking a look at the Varanguard, and the fact that it is a little harder to get all the buffs in place for them, I could easily see them being worth 200-240 points - if it wasn't for that 6th circle buff.  With the 6th circle buff available, it is hard to justify bringing their price down that low, because then they would be such an easy no-brainer to bring in a Hosts army.  They are still slightly overpriced there, but Archaon + Khorne Aura is still enough to buff them to 40% more damage in that allegiance than they are with the max buffs outside of that subfaction.

[Midjithero]

@readercolin wow, that’s a lot of data, great job compiling it!  I do agree with you that, in comparison to other units, our units feel over costed.  I do believe however, that about 80% of the units are costed appropriately. The issue is our allegiance abilities aren’t as strong as other books.  So, when you look at a 40 block of marauders at 300 points, who benefit from 6s exploding 3x enemies getting Locus’d to fight last, and friendly models being summoned around them, it looks appropriate to spend that 300 points on them.   Toss a Khorne Daemon Prince in a BoK army, and he’s gonna help wreck face.

Units like the Sorc Lord on Manticore are slightly over priced because he only casts once, even though he has the best spell in the game.  If he caster twice, I’d always pay 260 for him every game. 
Warriors are fine at 100 points for 5 (horde discount would be nice at 20 not 30 like Liberators) but need to not have to rely on a hero within 12” to buff them, they should get that Mark aura buff for just being S2D. 
Knights could definitely go down to 160/170 for 5.  
Chariots are Terrible and should be like 100 for 1, and 240/260 for 3, both flavors...

all the Warcry stuff is fine at 70 points.  

I’m sure the Daemonfire Rift will go up to 80/90 points on next GHB
Karkadrak needs a built in -1/-2 rend on main weapon for his price tag, or dropped 20 points.  Give him the -3 artifact and he’s priced appropriately. 
Archaon at 800 is fine, if he could benefit from all Mark Auras, and not just 1...

[NJohansson]

6 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

The first is probably Cabalist, Fatesworn, msu chaff, magic heavy. Which only really works because of being able to summon horrors, and being nominally 1 drop with a teleport spell.

The second is probably some sort of 1 or 2 drop Ravagers, extreme msu that doesn't kill much but scores near max points every round. But I don't see how it wins something like knife to the heart, maybe with a maxed out unit knights. So Slaanesh or Khorne to retain the 1 drop. 

The problem most builds run into is that their dmg per point is very low so even if you are doing good amounts of dmg overall you are still losing the fight/battle.

Marauders are fine, but realistically unless you are going to 80-120 I don't see much point investing into the combat tree for a unit of their capacity.

To evolve on this - seems that there are basically armies centered either around

1) daemon princes with Khorne/Nurgle and Be’lakor the main choices (usually despoiler build),

2) arcanist/ravager 2-4 Gaunt summoner and a Manticore hero/other beat stick or

3) Archeon Varanguard army.

All of these usually field marauders quite heavily.

[whispersofblood]

Honestly I think the DP is a bit garbage, it somehow got less useful despite being buffed. I think it's the interactions with the marks. CMD abilities was not the way to go. And, it can't go into any battalions so 9/10 you should just take Bel'lakor if you are going to 2 drops. 

Despoilers is interesting, I just don't think it's that good a subfaction overall due the limited flexibility and utility inside the book. Maybe if we had access to those LoCA warscroll battalions. It just doesn't come together despite having so great pieces.

[JackStreicher]

30 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

It just doesn't come together despite having so great pieces.

Like the whole book.

[Enoby]

I'm wondering, if you had free reign over this battletome, what would you change?

[NJohansson]

3 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

Honestly I think the DP is a bit garbage, it somehow got less useful despite being buffed. I think it's the interactions with the marks. CMD abilities was not the way to go. And, it can't go into any battalions so 9/10 you should just take Bel'lakor if you are going to 2 drops. 

Despoilers is interesting, I just don't think it's that good a subfaction overall due the limited flexibility and utility inside the book. Maybe if we had access to those LoCA warscroll battalions. It just doesn't come together despite having so great pieces.

I haven’t found StD in need of the battalions. One drop is nice but you pay points that you really need to spend on other things. Moreover if you go with either of Be’lakor or Archeon then you rarely need the second artifact. 
 

As to the DP - Tzeentch one is utter rubbish but the Khorne and sometimes Nurgle can be absolutely brutal. I actually like a Khorne Daemon Prince even in my cabal builds (gives so much board control in the right circumstances and offers a great boost to the Khorne marauders). Probably not S-tier in any way but has provided me good games/wins against many of the more prolific “hard builds”. 

Edited February 26, 2020 by NJohansson
Missed a rule.

[Magnus The Blue]

3 minutes ago, NJohansson said:

I haven’t found StD in need of the battalions. One drop is nice but you pay points that you really need to spend on other things. Moreover if you go with either of Be’lakor or Archeon then you rarely need the second artifact. 
 

As to the DP - Tzeentch one is utter rubbish but the Khorne and sometimes Nurgle can be absolutely brutal. With the Ethereal amulet and the wardsave (and a re-roll from sorcerer lord) it is also very resilient if needed (I prefer a defensive instead of an offensive build). I actually like a Khorne Daemon Prince even in my cabal builds (gives so much board control in the right circumstances and offers a great boost to the Khorne marauders). Probably not S-tier in any way but has provided me good games/wins against many of the more prolific “hard builds”. 

No reroll from Sorcerer Lord, it can only target mortals. 

[NJohansson]

1 minute ago, Magnus The Blue said:

No reroll from Sorcerer Lord, it can only target mortals. 

Ouch - you live and learn ... that gives the offensive DP much more validation/makes the sorcerer lord on manticore even better.

Thanks:)

[Gistradagis]

3 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

Honestly I think the DP is a bit garbage, it somehow got less useful despite being buffed. I think it's the interactions with the marks. CMD abilities was not the way to go. And, it can't go into any battalions so 9/10 you should just take Bel'lakor if you are going to 2 drops. 

Despoilers is interesting, I just don't think it's that good a subfaction overall due the limited flexibility and utility inside the book. Maybe if we had access to those LoCA warscroll battalions. It just doesn't come together despite having so great pieces.

That's the book and battalion's fault, not the DP. The unit itself is great, and I'd say one of the very few StD units that feel both strong and appropriately priced. DP with Nurgle is decent if you're aiming for the plagetouched warband and want some extra effect, although the CP was nerfed to being almost worthless. But a DP with Khorne mark is such a monster, both for hitting (fights first, basically on 2s 2s, rerolling 1s for hit) and for control (the Khorne CP can be huge, well-positioned).

It is true, however, that the faction is fairly uninspired. The scenery effect is interesting, but rarely does much since most stuff in the game except for shooting and some spells requires vision and the mortals don't come by often, and the healing and 5+ FNP for the general hint at monster-heavy lists, but then the tome goes and makes it extremely inefficient and unwise to play anything other than mortal-heavy lists, making all 3 big monsters a waste of points.

I feel like we needed something similar to the summoning powers we've seen in Wrath of the Everchosen, with the faction's focus being on demons, or to make the abilities good enough to play the faction as it's supposed to fluff-wise (for example, the 5+ FNP being for all DPs and monsters, not only your general). I think it's fine we don't really get access to warbands in Despoilers, but we needed something in exchange... and gota half-assed focus on units you can't really play.

[Kurrilino]

2 hours ago, Enoby said:

I'm wondering, if you had free reign over this battletome, what would you change?

Khorne mark +attack

Nurgle -1 to hit

Tzeench +1 to wardsave /spellcasting

Slaneesh run and charge, no battleshock

Units are assigned a mark, no heroes needed to babysit.

chariots 100 points

5 Knights 150 points

Warriors -1 rend.

Marauders need severe nerf in everything

Make the last half of the book interact with the batteltome. Remove those rediculous rules where every model in the unit has it's own rule.

Create battalions according to what the units  in it actually do. Example the "Warshrine Battalion" would make warshrine prayer go of on 2+ instead 3+

Eye of the gods table needs to be meaningfull since you have to jump through so many loops. Remove to spawn units. Get rewarded for every killed unit or hero, not just 1 time at the end of the round and let the results stack.

Lord on mount ability should affect heroes as well as knights and chariots.

Gorebest chariot needs it's old rules back. 

The command abilities are god awful. It sounds cool to have ravagers who can use all command abilities but the abilities are meh at very best. 

So are the magic items. This is supposed to be a close combat army but we don't have a single combat relevant magic item.

 

 

 

 

[Cambot1231]

Riddle me this... If a Varanguard from the 6th circle, marked nurgle with the ensorcelled weapons attacks, hits and then rolls some 6's to wound, would those attacks count at 3 points of oncoming damage each?

[Sneedlewoods]

5 minutes ago, Cambot1231 said:

Riddle me this... If a Varanguard from the 6th circle, marked nurgle with the ensorcelled weapons attacks, hits and then rolls some 6's to wound, would those attacks count at 3 points of oncoming damage each?

Sure, if you charged in the same turn.

[JackStreicher]

12 hours ago, Enoby said:

I'm wondering, if you had free reign over this battletome, what would you change?

- Marks always get the non-general effect,   independent of any hero.

- The General Mark effect triggers for any hero.

- All Cultists and Darkoath Units get the undivided keyword

- 1 in every 4 units can be chosen from BoK, MoN, HoS, DoT if the unit has the mortal keyword. This unit gets the StD Keyword.

- Allied Greater daemons Get the Aura Ability. (If there‘s anything that‘s inspiring then it is a greater daemons)

- Knights must choose every combat phase which weapon they use.

- Chaos Warriors can mix and match their weapon options

- Daemon Princes become wizards with one spell, Khorne gets no spell and Tzeentch can cast twice.

- Cultist Command trait that allows an additional unbind instead grants the ability to cast one additional spell for wizards. Non wizards become wizards.

- Cultists can perform 2 rituals a battle round: The Sacrifice one at the beginning of the herophase, the move an endless spell one at the end of the herophase.
 

- The Shrine Battallion makes the prayers go off on a 2+, on a 6+ The current Battalion effect triggers as well.

- Varanguard get two versions : Circles of Ruin Varanguard, Varanguard. The circle one costs 250-300 pts, the normal one costs 200-250 points.

 

tada! The book would be very fun to play, strong (but not broken) and versatile. 
Additionally it would make me buy all those mortal units

 

Edited February 27, 2020 by JackStreicher
Spelling

[tomcabator15]

2 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

- Marks always get the non-general effect,   independent of any hero.

- The General Mark effect triggers for any hero.

- All Cultists and Darkoath Units get the undivided keyword

- 1 in every 4 units can be chosen from BoK, MoN, HoS, DoT if the unit has the mortal keyword. This unit gets the StD Keyword.

- Allied Greater daemons Get the Aura Ability. (If there‘s anything that‘s inspiring then it is a greater daemons)

- Knights must choose every combat phase which weapon they use.

- Chaos Warriors can mix and match their weapon options

- Daemon Princes become wizards with one spell, Khorne gets no spell and Tzeentch can cast twice.

- Cultist Command trait that allows an additional unbind instead grants the ability to cast one additional spell for wizards. Non wizards become wizards.

- Cultists can perform 2 rituals a battle round: The Sacrifice one at the beginning of the herophase, the move an endless spell one at the end of the herophase.
 

- The Shrine Battallion makes the prayers go off on a 2+, on a 6+ The current Battalion effect triggers as well.

- Varanguard get two versions : Circles of Ruin Varanguard, Varanguard. The circle one costs 250-300 pts, the normal one costs 200-250 points.

 

tada! The book would be very fun to play, strong (but not broken) and versatile. 
Additionally it would make me buy all those mortal units

 

Pretty cool changes, I would just modify it a little bit more.   

- In the 1 in 4 units. You can only access units with the same god keyword as your general, except Undivided which can take units from the 4 books.

- In my opinion the chaos knight should only get a 40 point drop. At 140 they should be fine.

- Warriors at 90 pts for 5, max unit of 20 and horde discount of 300 pts for 20 models. This should fix them as an anvil, no mixing required in my opinion.

Other changes:

- Marauders should get a 20 pts increase. I know they are the only good thing right now, but with all these changes mentioned above they would be even crazier.

- Both chariots should see a 30 pts decrease.

- The Warshrine should have the monster keyword (for the healing in despoilers)

- The battalions and Command abilities should target StD units, not only Mortal StD units. It break the faction so much.

[JackStreicher]

I‘ll play the next games like this and report on the results

[Slaanesh]

Hello!

Im going to a tournament this weekend with slaves, what do you think about my list!

I love the knights in this list and a big thing is when to use the mounted lord command ability (+ 1 hit) and to change who's general to always have the improved aura of chaos where you fight. With reroll 1's to hit and +1 hit and wound they can really wreck most things. The one drop helps when you need to be the one charging. I dont think I can win against the top lists but my goal is maybe 3 out of 5 wins.

Allegiance: Slaves to Darkness
- Damned Legion: Ravagers

- Ghur

Leaders
Chaos Lord on Karkadrak (250)
- Artefact: Gryph-feather Charm
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
- Ravagers Command Trait: Master of Deception
Chaos Lord on Manticore (280)
- Blade & Lance
- Artefact: Blasphemous Cuirass
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
- Ravagers Command Trait: Eternal Vendetta
Chaos Lord on Daemonic Mount (170)
- General
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
- Ravagers Command Trait: Bolstered by Hate
Chaos Lord (110)
- Reaperblade & Daemonbound Steel
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
- Ravagers Command Trait: Favoured of the Pantheon

Battleline
5 x Chaos Knights (180)
- Cursed Lance
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
5 x Chaos Knights (180)
- Cursed Lance
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
5 x Chaos Knights (180)
- Cursed Lance
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
15 x Chaos Warriors (300)
- Hand Weapon & Shield
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne

Behemoths
Chaos Warshrine (170)
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne

Battalions
Bloodmarked Warband (180)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 122
 

[GeneralZero]

Very thematic list and TBH, this is THE StD list that should be competitive yet iconic. Unfortunately, it isn't. But in a not so much super competitive environment, you can expect some nice results.

[Midjithero]

2 hours ago, Slaanesh said:

Hello!

Im going to a tournament this weekend with slaves, what do you think about my list!

I love the knights in this list and a big thing is when to use the mounted lord command ability (+ 1 hit) and to change who's general to always have the improved aura of chaos where you fight. With reroll 1's to hit and +1 hit and wound they can really wreck most things. The one drop helps when you need to be the one charging. I dont think I can win against the top lists but my goal is maybe 3 out of 5 wins.

Allegiance: Slaves to Darkness
- Damned Legion: Ravagers

- Ghur

Leaders
Chaos Lord on Karkadrak (250)
- Artefact: Gryph-feather Charm
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
- Ravagers Command Trait: Master of Deception
Chaos Lord on Manticore (280)
- Blade & Lance
- Artefact: Blasphemous Cuirass
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
- Ravagers Command Trait: Eternal Vendetta
Chaos Lord on Daemonic Mount (170)
- General
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
- Ravagers Command Trait: Bolstered by Hate
Chaos Lord (110)
- Reaperblade & Daemonbound Steel
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
- Ravagers Command Trait: Favoured of the Pantheon

Battleline
5 x Chaos Knights (180)
- Cursed Lance
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
5 x Chaos Knights (180)
- Cursed Lance
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
5 x Chaos Knights (180)
- Cursed Lance
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
15 x Chaos Warriors (300)
- Hand Weapon & Shield
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne

Behemoths
Chaos Warshrine (170)
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne

Battalions
Bloodmarked Warband (180)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 122
 

So I have a couple comments:

first and foremost...you are trying to run a Khorne list...yet your name is Slaanesh?!?!  Heresy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ok all kidding aside, what’s your strategy?  I like the core of the army, but feel you can maximize its potential better...when fighting a turn 1 alpha strike melee army, who do you screen with?  My guess is the knights, so first thing I’d do is combine them to 1x5 Ensorcelled and 1x10 Lances.  

Are both Daemonic Mount and Manticore necessary in your list?  Think about what they both bring to the table, in terms of their command abilities, and how many actual CP you have to spend...will you be summonin as Ravagers?  If so, your list requires 5 cp per turn and you have 2 to start the game...

Karkadrak NEEDS -3 rend (Rune ir Dimensional Blade) to maximize his potential.  He’s a scapel, and -1 to hit him isn’t going to make him more tanky...

if Ravagers is not necessarily your sub for summoning, I would drop the Manticore and Daemonic Mount for a Khorne Demon Prince, Sorcerer Lord of whatever flavor, and spawns to fill out the Bloodmarked requirements (3 if you also combine the knights).  Then make your DP the general, run Despoilers, give him the Diabolical Mantle and Paragon of Ruin.  You are then a 3 drop, so gives you some flexibility when setting up, and should net you choice of first turn at least 3 or 4 games.  With the DP, he fights first, so you can kill a model with him, then give the Karkadrak the +1 attack from your battallion.  Khorne is also the best command ability for DPs in my opinion.

[rosa]

Updated Honest Wargamer stats show a winrate of 50.5% for slaves, which is pretty solid. What do you guys wine about?