JackStreicher Posted March 29, 2020 Share Posted March 29, 2020 (edited) Imo this should be (including a Batallion) the size of a 2.000 points Slaves to Darkness Army (it‘s ~2600 pts) (who can spot the conversions I did? :D) Edited March 29, 2020 by JackStreicher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted March 29, 2020 Share Posted March 29, 2020 Welp, everything but my sorcerer on manticore is in. Figure this stuff will take me far: Archaon Lord on Karkadrak Daemon Prince Sorcerer Lord on Manticore x3 Varanguard x30 Chaos Warriors x10 Knights Kitty Cat Eightfold Doom-Sigil. In the future I guess 80 marauders? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowgra Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 On 3/28/2020 at 9:29 PM, red_moo said: Hey! Would you be willing to share the two lists? I'm splitting my head open trying to figure out what a competitive slaves army would look like where I could fit in a demon prince, chaos warriors and chaos knights. I can live with mandatory 20 to 40 marauders and 5 horsemen to zip around. Thank you! hey no problem. kotet list was: 6 varanguard, plate, doom sorcerer lord 40 marauders 5 warriors 10 knights 2 warshrines all nurgle marked khorne despoiler list was: DP, paragon, ethereal/soj/diabolic mantle karkadrak, dimensional blade lord bloodsecretor 10 chosen 40 marauders 20 marauders warshrine 5 knights godsworn champion of ruin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabres1226 Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 Hello all, First time poster. I have been deliberating back and forth on whether or not I should start a STD army. I began reading through this forum and saw some pretty mixed opinions on the army and wanted to get a little bit better of an idea of how this army performs in different metas. I would consider myself a pretty casual player but I also like doing local FLGS tournies. Anyway, what are your guys experiences with STD and also why do they seem to receive such negative press? Anything else you guys want to add relating to these things would be awesome too. Thanks! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
readercolin Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 2 hours ago, sabres1226 said: Hello all, First time poster. I have been deliberating back and forth on whether or not I should start a STD army. I began reading through this forum and saw some pretty mixed opinions on the army and wanted to get a little bit better of an idea of how this army performs in different metas. I would consider myself a pretty casual player but I also like doing local FLGS tournies. Anyway, what are your guys experiences with STD and also why do they seem to receive such negative press? Anything else you guys want to add relating to these things would be awesome too. Thanks! What do you want out of playing Slaves to Darkness? Do you want a cool army of Chaos Warriors and Knights, lead by a demon prince or a big, beefy mounted leader, walking in and going toe to toe with your opponent? You are in for a world of disappointment when you put that army on the battlefield. Do you want an army that includes a bunch of the warcry warbands making an impact on the battlefield? Once again, you are in for a world of disappointment when you put that army on the battlefield. Do you want an army that consists of big blocks of chaos marauders, teleporting around the board and then charging in to slaughter whatever they run into? Ok, here we have something that can work, can keep your opponents on their toes, and can actually win games. Do you like Archaon, and want to see him lead his Varanguard to victory? As long as you give your varanguard ensorcelled blades, and the 6th circle, you have a workable force. Want any other cool loadouts for them? Too bad. (Note, if you want to look back a few pages, you can see where I did the math for that... and the 6th circle buffs nearly doubles their damage output and puts them from "meh" to "usable"). Basically, StD gets such negative press because the average StD unit ranges from meh to unplayable, but the Marauders are strong enough that they are basically holding the entire faction up on their own. Additionally, they are VERY reliant on their hero's being nearby, and 12" bubbles around the hero's of your chosen keyword gets surprisingly small surprisingly fast (note, for the average unit, having the Khorne General nearby with them having the Khorne keyword is a nearly 50% boost to their damage output... that is how impactful these aura's are). Additionally, the flavor of the faction being a coalition of units that follow different gods... doesn't play out well in practice, as the only time you will ever really run units with different keywords is if your main keyword is Khorne and you want to run a wizard (or multiple) as well. On top of the above, the army is pointed like they are always running with their buffs on. In practice, this isn't the case. Sorcerers needing to get a 6 to get off their re-roll spell, and not having any bonuses means that when it does go off, it is frequently unbound makes them rather unreliable as a source of buffs. Warshrines needing a 3+ prayer to get their bonuses off just means that they will always fail that one turn you really need those buffs. The 12" bubble from hero's often means you can't charge an opponent otherwise you will be outside of range of the "wholly within" effect of that bubble. So when a unit is appropriately costed assuming all these buffs are in play... it isn't when it doesn't have those buffs. All this combines to bring about some people who are ok with the marauder spam, Gaunt Summoner cheese, and ok building towards the (few) competitive builds not having all that much problem with Slaves to Darkness. However, the people who like the faction more for its flavor, or because they like the models in the new start collecting, or because they played with chaos back in the day, or because they just like the aesthetic of warriors and knights are all upset because this book does absolutely nothing for them other than get their hopes up. Personally, I bought in to slaves to darkness because I like the aesthetic of the heavily armored warriors and cavalry charging towards my opponents and fighting them Mano e Mano. After 3 months of playing the army, I'm going to finish painting them and then set them aside, because their performance is so poor on the battlefield. The army looks amazing, and will be great for home games that I set up for a more cinematic appearance. And I might come back to it after GHB 2020, if it lowers the points costs of warriors and knights. Until then, my models can stay at home because they just don't carry their weight on the battlefield. 5 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent of Chaos Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 @@sabres1226 welcome! @readercolin has given a really good summary of the faction and has asked the all important question; what do you want out of it? To be competitive (even semi competitive) we are pretty much forced into the super elite Archaon legion or spamming marauders. If you are fine with those options then you should feel like you have an even chance in any game you play. If you want a fluffier style list then its generally a struggle against the majority of opponents. My 2c would be that the army has all of the tools needed to be competitive and all of the fluff to be interesting. The reasons behind the bad press is the fluff doesn't really reflect how the army plays on the table (Marauders being way better than warriors, mixed god armies not synergising, etc), you can't run all of the competitive tools in the same list making an all-comers list near impossible, and most of the tools have limitations that make them difficult to use when you really need them, such as; Awesome spells (including teleport) but with high casting values and short ranges; The ability to buff casting via a specific legion, but still requires a prayer roll that might only result in a +1 to cast. This build also comes with substantial limitations to the army's melee power meaning if you don't spike damage in the magic phase you are in for a tough time; Free buffs from auras but wholly within 12" range can be punishing. Many units rely on the charge to do decent damage (knights, chariots, etc) meaning you either move outside your buff range or move your buffing hero into an exposed position; Really powerful command abilities on some heroes but no inherent way of generating extra CP; Ability to summon (from a specific legion) but costs CP in an army already starved for them- see above point. Also the summoning legion doesn't support Daemon Princes and does nothing to buff casting; Daemon Princes are excellent backfield hero hunters but then don't get to roll on the Eye of the Gods table; Despoilers Legion rewards you for taking multiple Daemon Princes but then none of the Battalions allow more then one; Some battalions are decent, all are expensive and none of them support more than one hero in an army that wants to run multiple heroes for the buffs (apart from the God specific battalions which are mortal only so no Daemon Princes...); Chaos Warriors want to be taken in big units to maintain their resiliency but then suffer from being on 32mm bases in terms of staying within auras and getting models in range to fight. Also at 300 pts for 15, you are way better off running 40 Marauders; Interesting fluffy units such as the Warcry warbands, Darkoath heroes, etc can't take god marks or give/receive buffs and so dont synergise with other units; Warshrines are awesome support units but there is no way to buff or reroll the prayer roll. Essentially its a real puzzle of an army and a challenge to be competitive in every game, requiring very careful movement and thoughtful placement of buff pieces. Even when you play perfectly it can still feel like your opponent's army just has more bang for the same buck. If that sounds like your kind of army then go for it! If you prefer the simpler Iron Jaws/Ogres/Daughters of Khaine style of play, or the reliable magic of Death/Tzeentch then it might not be for you. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The World Tree Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 One of the best ways to think of the book is that they added in reasonable counter balances to a lot of the units including pricing buffs into units costs. This is not bad in of itself, but is when compared with other armies who do not have them priced in. The other aspect is that Warriors are just not fun. The rest of the iconic units have their moments, but Warriors just dn't play ike the fluff. They can't kill anything at all. It is just demotivating. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charleston Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 What sorts of point reductions would you guys see as needed to make StD work better? Some things I would say by guts: Chaos Knights from 180 to 160 Choosen to 120 Soul Grinder to 200 Slaughterbrute 140 Chaos Lord on Manticore 210 Chaos Sorcerer Lord on Manticore 210 Daemon Prince 200 Gaunt Summoner 220 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus The Blue Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 5 minutes ago, Charleston said: What sorts of point reductions would you guys see as needed to make StD work better? Some things I would say by guts: Chaos Knights from 180 to 160 Choosen to 120 Soul Grinder to 200 Slaughterbrute 140 Chaos Lord on Manticore 210 Chaos Sorcerer Lord on Manticore 210 Daemon Prince 200 Gaunt Summoner 220 I agree with most of that but Guant Summoner and Manticore Sorcerer options are fine the way they are, if anything Guant Summoner could go up a bit. In my mind Chaos Warriors are the unit most in need of a price drop, say 80 points for 5 and possibly a horde discount on top of that. Also Marauders should go up slightly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grucha Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Is anyone playing Host of Everchosen? I've been thinking about something like Archaon, 2x3 Varanguard with glaives Khorne marked (double activation 3 attacks per each model with 2+ 2+ , rerolling 1 to hit and wound and damage 4 on charge seems crazy good) and 2x40 Khorne marked marauders (that BS immunity and attack after death is exactly what I needed!). I'm just thinking if I shouldn't get Warshrine and Sorcerer instead of 40 marauders. Warshrine praying nurgle chant for Archaon to give him +1 to save, also providing 6+ fnp, and a sorcerer to buff marauders seems promising. What do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
readercolin Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 5 hours ago, grucha said: Is anyone playing Host of Everchosen? I've been thinking about something like Archaon, 2x3 Varanguard with glaives Khorne marked (double activation 3 attacks per each model with 2+ 2+ , rerolling 1 to hit and wound and damage 4 on charge seems crazy good) and 2x40 Khorne marked marauders (that BS immunity and attack after death is exactly what I needed!). I'm just thinking if I shouldn't get Warshrine and Sorcerer instead of 40 marauders. Warshrine praying nurgle chant for Archaon to give him +1 to save, also providing 6+ fnp, and a sorcerer to buff marauders seems promising. What do you think? The standard build for host is the following: Archaon Chaos Lord on Foot or Sorcerer 3 Varanguard (blades + 6th circle) 3 Varanguard (blades + 6th circle) 40 Marauders Warshrine (or sorcerer + command point) I would go read back a few pages and you will find more detail about this build and how it plays out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, Charleston said: What sorts of point reductions would you guys see as needed to make StD work better? Some things I would say by guts: Chaos Knights from 180 to 160 Choosen to 120 Soul Grinder to 200 Slaughterbrute 140 Chaos Lord on Manticore 210 Chaos Sorcerer Lord on Manticore 210 Daemon Prince 200 Gaunt Summoner 220 Almost all the range needs a 20%-30% points drop to be on par with the majority of other factions. (Except obvious choices like Marauders and the Sorcerer Lord) tbh we‘d also need just a few rules rewrites. Edited March 31, 2020 by JackStreicher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimrock Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 6 hours ago, grucha said: Is anyone playing Host of Everchosen? I've been thinking about something like Archaon, 2x3 Varanguard with glaives Khorne marked (double activation 3 attacks per each model with 2+ 2+ , rerolling 1 to hit and wound and damage 4 on charge seems crazy good) and 2x40 Khorne marked marauders (that BS immunity and attack after death is exactly what I needed!). I'm just thinking if I shouldn't get Warshrine and Sorcerer instead of 40 marauders. Warshrine praying nurgle chant for Archaon to give him +1 to save, also providing 6+ fnp, and a sorcerer to buff marauders seems promising. What do you think? I definitely think that Archaon always wants a chaos sorcerer following him around. The warshrine is really solid too, and even if it doesn't get the buffs off it can hit fairly hard in combat. I can't say that I've been playing it a ton, just proxy for now since I don't have the varanguard, but this is the list I'm looking at: Archaon Chaos Sorcerer Chaos Lord 40 Marauders 3 Varanguard 2x5 Marauder Horsemen Warshrine It certainly loses out on the combat capability of the second unit of varanguard, but the marauder horsemen give a lot more flexibility. They can screen the more important units from an alpha strike if needed or grab objectives. The chaos lord also works well with archaon and you can stick a thermalrider cloak on him to keep up. I'm not expecting it to be a tournament winning list or anything, but it should be a decent all comers list. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red_moo Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 On 3/30/2020 at 11:40 AM, shadowgra said: hey no problem. kotet list was: 6 varanguard, plate, doom sorcerer lord 40 marauders 5 warriors 10 knights 2 warshrines all nurgle marked khorne despoiler list was: DP, paragon, ethereal/soj/diabolic mantle karkadrak, dimensional blade lord bloodsecretor 10 chosen 40 marauders 20 marauders warshrine 5 knights godsworn champion of ruin Thank you!! I have to say this look much different than what I was expecting. Have more questions than answers almost hah What would you put in the first one instead of varanguard (purely because I dont have them :D)? And isn't two warshrines overkill? And in second one having karkadrak with just 5 knights. How come? Why not more cuz of his buff? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 9 hours ago, grucha said: Is anyone playing Host of Everchosen? I've been thinking about something like Archaon, 2x3 Varanguard with glaives Khorne marked (double activation 3 attacks per each model with 2+ 2+ , rerolling 1 to hit and wound and damage 4 on charge seems crazy good) and 2x40 Khorne marked marauders (that BS immunity and attack after death is exactly what I needed!). I'm just thinking if I shouldn't get Warshrine and Sorcerer instead of 40 marauders. Warshrine praying nurgle chant for Archaon to give him +1 to save, also providing 6+ fnp, and a sorcerer to buff marauders seems promising. What do you think? Where are you getting damage four from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red_moo Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Oh and I forgot to ask what the second list looks like with just 40 marauders. I'm trying to keep it interesting hobby wise too... Plus it's more fun operating with different units than one big blob. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowgra Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 2 hours ago, red_moo said: Thank you!! I have to say this look much different than what I was expecting. Have more questions than answers almost hah What would you put in the first one instead of varanguard (purely because I dont have them :D)? And isn't two warshrines overkill? And in second one having karkadrak with just 5 knights. How come? Why not more cuz of his buff? Well knight of the empty throne isn't really playable without varanguards. Tho it isn't the most competitive build around. About the second list i don't really think that the karkadrak's command makes knight worth expecially if you run them with one Hand weapons. Also knights are pretty meh for their point Cost, so i wouldn't run more than 5 unless you really want to play 10. Warshrine is a must, 2 just have more reliability than one and in a list that wants to buff a 600 point unit i want more chance to get the +1 save Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldarain Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 The Everchosen is complete! 5 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decker_cky Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 On 3/27/2020 at 6:21 AM, GeneralZero said: Is it me or Bel'akor daemon prince miniature (failcast) seems really tiny compared to a classic daemon prince (plastic)? Any picture for a comparison? I can't find one. I don't like that a nice char/hero badass is so little on the battlefield. Belakor is 6 years older than the plastic daemon prince, and 16 years old. There's been significant scale creep since belakor's release. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red_moo Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 3 hours ago, shadowgra said: Well knight of the empty throne isn't really playable without varanguards. Tho it isn't the most competitive build around. About the second list i don't really think that the karkadrak's command makes knight worth expecially if you run them with one Hand weapons. Also knights are pretty meh for their point Cost, so i wouldn't run more than 5 unless you really want to play 10. Warshrine is a must, 2 just have more reliability than one and in a list that wants to buff a 600 point unit i want more chance to get the +1 save Heh, I have 3 armies in the works so the most expensive units may not be a very wallet friendly choice. Otherwise of course I would like to rock vararchaon army sometimes. Ok, noted. I always thought they just rely on buffs a lot and then they are able to do nice work. Everything funneled into those varanguard I see. Kind of a fun one tick pony army I gotta say. Either they get the buffs and pillage the table or you are done. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent of Chaos Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 16 hours ago, Charleston said: What sorts of point reductions would you guys see as needed to make StD work better? Some things I would say by guts: Chaos Knights from 180 to 160 Choosen to 120 Soul Grinder to 200 Slaughterbrute 140 Chaos Lord on Manticore 210 Chaos Sorcerer Lord on Manticore 210 Daemon Prince 200 Gaunt Summoner 220 No Way can Gaunt Summoner go down given he auto summons a 200 point unit of Horrors. Everything else on the list looks fair. Chariots need to come way down to be remotely worth taking. Warriors down to 80 seems right, or give them -1 rend for hand weapons and they can prob stay at 100. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJohansson Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 21 hours ago, Magnus The Blue said: I agree with most of that but Guant Summoner and Manticore Sorcerer options are fine the way they are, if anything Guant Summoner could go up a bit. In my mind Chaos Warriors are the unit most in need of a price drop, say 80 points for 5 and possibly a horde discount on top of that. Also Marauders should go up slightly. Increasing the cost for Marauders is not a great (IMHO) idea - we don’t have that many top competitive choices and definitely not any unit at the absolute top of point efficiency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJohansson Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 21 hours ago, Charleston said: What sorts of point reductions would you guys see as needed to make StD work better? Some things I would say by guts: Chaos Knights from 180 to 160 Choosen to 120 Soul Grinder to 200 Slaughterbrute 140 Chaos Lord on Manticore 210 Chaos Sorcerer Lord on Manticore 210 Daemon Prince 200 Gaunt Summoner 220 I agree with most suggestions, but I think that the Manticores (especially the sorcerer) is probably about right and the Gaunt is to low costed. As to the Prince, the problem is that it is mark dependent- Tzeentch and Slaanesh need a point decrease - Khorne and maybe Nurgle are fine as is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The World Tree Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 (edited) The Gaunt isn't too cheap*, the Pink Horrors it can summon are just too much. A better fix is to keep it as is but to just make it summon blues rather than pinks. Voila, fixed. *or rather, increasing the price further disincentivises summoning anything but pink horrors. Edited April 1, 2020 by The World Tree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurrilino Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 On 3/30/2020 at 3:24 PM, sabres1226 said: Hello all, First time poster. I have been deliberating back and forth on whether or not I should start a STD army. I began reading through this forum and saw some pretty mixed opinions on the army and wanted to get a little bit better of an idea of how this army performs in different metas. I would consider myself a pretty casual player but I also like doing local FLGS tournies. Anyway, what are your guys experiences with STD and also why do they seem to receive such negative press? Anything else you guys want to add relating to these things would be awesome too. Thanks! The main reason for the bad review is that they are priced like an ultra elite army point wise but perform way below mediocre units. Also the limited selections of units that are playable is very annoying. Either you play a blob of 40 marauders with your beam around gimmick or you go home. Having a huge chunk of the featured units unplayable is not well received. That brings me to the next topic. Most of the even remotely useful skills are randomly applied or connected to very high casting values. If you meet a magic heavy army, you can forget about your one trick pony marauder beaming and you are toast. And there are people who care about the lore and highly question the unit strength. By lore, the guys getting stronger as much they raise in the ranks. For any reason, Marauders are the strongest and as more you move up, as weaker the units get. IMO they are perfect for non competitive, themed role play. If you create god sworn warbands rampaging the country you will love them. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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