AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion

[Eldarain]

2 minutes ago, BaylorCorvette said:

What is this supplement people are talking about? Some change coming to AoS? All I know are the two major updates they do per year. Generals Handbook in summer and then again in Winter.

There's a S2D vs Bonereapers supplement coming. Expect randomised condition filled jank for Chaos and over the top craziness for the already oppressive Skeletor army.

[BaylorCorvette]

Oh joy, should be interesting.

[Cambot1231]

I've been hearing a lot of groans about Darkfire demonrift being bent from podcasts, forums, etc.  People saying that this spell takes entire ARMIES off the table. is this really justified?  I look at it on paper and think okay on the higher average  you have 4 wizards in range? The spell moves over one enemy unit and ends within an inch of another enemy unit.  So Bam two unit take 6 mortal wounds. That is powerful but not unlike other tzeentch mortal wound spells.    

[Petroos]

23 minutes ago, Cambot1231 said:

I've been hearing a lot of groans about Darkfire demonrift being bent from podcasts, forums, etc.  People saying that this spell takes entire ARMIES off the table. is this really justified?  I look at it on paper and think okay on the higher average  you have 4 wizards in range? The spell moves over one enemy unit and ends within an inch of another enemy unit.  So Bam two unit take 6 mortal wounds. That is powerful but not unlike other tzeentch mortal wound spells.    

Yeah this has been my take on it too. In the absolute most perfect circumstances it could do a boatload of mortal wounds to multiple targets, but in reality I think it's going to be about the same as if the warscroll just said d6 mortal wounds. Which is definitely not bad, but not game breaking. 

[Aelfric]

1 hour ago, Eldarain said:

There's a S2D vs Bonereapers supplement coming. Expect randomised condition filled jank for Chaos and over the top craziness for the already oppressive Skeletor army.

Does that mean the Varanspire is Castle Greyskull?

[The World Tree]

1 hour ago, Cambot1231 said:

I've been hearing a lot of groans about Darkfire demonrift being bent from podcasts, forums, etc.  People saying that this spell takes entire ARMIES off the table. is this really justified?  I look at it on paper and think okay on the higher average  you have 4 wizards in range? The spell moves over one enemy unit and ends within an inch of another enemy unit.  So Bam two unit take 6 mortal wounds. That is powerful but not unlike other tzeentch mortal wound spells.    

Having used it, it is good. In the army we have it is fine, with our limited casting. We struggle for damage outside of Archao, so....

[Saturmorn Carvilli]

31 minutes ago, Aelfric said:

Does that mean the Varanspire is Castle Greyskull?

Considering that the teasers mention that the Bonereapers are laying siege (with included siege rules) to it, yes?

[Roark]

So Varanguard are no longer mixed weapon units despite having been (fairly uniquely) thus for years - since their release. That's a pretty nasty kick in the face to people who have bought and modelled these $100 kits in a particular way...

[Smooth criminal]

4 hours ago, Frowny said:

It would've been very useful to give the circle abilities outside of that single faction which already gets it. I thought initially that that was the intent, but yes, as is it's pretty lackluster.

Im still glad they nerfed the nurgle do ability though......coulda been on 6s to save or something to make it still somewhat useful but the previous was too strong by a mile. 

Marauders with that buff alone would mathatically beat every unit in the game on a point for point trade. It was horrifying. No army should have  1cp: you win target fight. It sucks now but will be better for balance down the road.

Yeah, nurgle's DP ability should've been on a 6 save deal 1 mw. If only for uniformity with the rest of the game.

[WargamerRyguy]

Hey all, really enjoying the new battletome. I did have a question about the Chaos Sorc lord on steed? Warscroll builder still says you can take one but the actual warscroll doesnt have any mention of it and there are no movement values for it. I have the old metal one, is it still an option?

[Bloodmoon]

@WargamerRyguyit is not, sadly

[Maddpainting]

Yeah... IDk what i'm going to do with my old one lol. I guess cut the arms off for a chaos knight?

[Kurrilino]

7 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

It's funny. All the posters that got on my back when I said the book was poor are gone. And, I'm still sitting here with a pile of warscroll cards and notes on allegiance abilities trying to figure it out. 

The tome is so disjointed, they even significantly nerfed the most unique subfaction in the game (Everchosen) into 3rd quartile mediocrity. 

I think we can safely call Slaves to Darkness a failure.

You have such a polite way to say how it is.

Was it really necessary to create a battletome to move a lowest tier army to unplayable?

What a disappointment. What a garbage book

 

Well, we had some really good books released and were up for a stinker.

Sadly it hit us.

 

Edited January 14, 2020 by Kurrilino

[Bloodmoon]

I really dont feel like the book is bad at all. Things are expensive, sure, but the buffs are very good(reroll all hits/wounds/saves is common) and units tend to be tanky or damaging, and compared to other books we are much better off. 

 

I think everyone might be a bit overreacting to the nerfs here, the army isnt unplayable at all, much less terrible. 

[whispersofblood]

1 hour ago, Bloodmoon said:

I really dont feel like the book is bad at all. Things are expensive, sure, but the buffs are very good(reroll all hits/wounds/saves is common) and units tend to be tanky or damaging, and compared to other books we are much better off. 

 

I think everyone might be a bit overreacting to the nerfs here, the army isnt unplayable at all, much less terrible. 

So here is my problem with the book, its neither tanky and doesn't do much damage. Mixed weapons barely made Chaos Warriors worth mentioning, barely. The buffs in the book are heavily repeated, how many sources ofsome variation of  rr hit/wound does one faction need? Given that the quality of attacks available are so paltry. The book gives you two strategic options specialize or generalize. IF you specialize you are swamped by similarish buffs and auras, the aura should be free without needing a hero no by and the general buffing the aura. The army would still be mid tier but it wouldn't feel like I was being straight jacketed the whole game. So you get stuck between your army having an allegiance ability or you know, having a movement phase. Ironically Big Waagh probably play more like a Slaves to Darkness army then S2D, a force of nature, the units are elite and decentralized, heroes push the units to heights beyond their base impressive abilities *in melee*. 

 Secondly plague touched and bloated blessing, were so easy to bypass it was actually sad watching people holding on to it.

The real problem is... this will be the basis of every S2D tome in the future. The individual rules may change but the design space has basically been defined... and its legitimately a terrible play experience, and not intuitive.  

[mmimzie]

7 hours ago, Cambot1231 said:

I've been hearing a lot of groans about Darkfire demonrift being bent from podcasts, forums, etc.  People saying that this spell takes entire ARMIES off the table. is this really justified?  I look at it on paper and think okay on the higher average  you have 4 wizards in range? The spell moves over one enemy unit and ends within an inch of another enemy unit.  So Bam two unit take 6 mortal wounds. That is powerful but not unlike other tzeentch mortal wound spells.    

Endless spells also exist. YOu can pretty reasonably get up to maybe 10 mortal wounds kill like most small characters and dramatically injurying others. using this in DoT can be worse as you can even take battleline wizards for 100 pts a pop.

Gaunt summonerr also make this worse as each gaunt themselve spawn another wizard unit each in the form of pink horrors.  

here is a easy slaves version:

4x Gaunt summoner One as general with master ritualist or whatever
Lord of change allie
5x marauder horsemen
5x marauder horsemen
5x marauder horsemen

Splinter fang
Untamed

Geminids
Prismatic palisade
suffocating gravetide
Umbral spell portal 
Rift

The lord of change uses CP to give +1 to cast and then you sac splintered fang for the cabal and heal a snake back later.  The unmade because you can screen up another 6" out to be all tactical or whatever. 

Rift can do 14 damage per unit, and thats on top of access to a spell portaled tzneetch's inferno, geminids, gaunt sumoner anti horde, 40 shooting pinks, and whatever else. List could be made better with min maurder squads charging from teleport. 

[KoalaSnok]

50 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

Rift can do 14 damage per unit, and thats on top of access to a spell portaled tzneetch's inferno, geminids, gaunt sumoner anti horde, 40 shooting pinks, and whatever else. List could be made better with min maurder squads charging from teleport. 

Soooo, if it's too oppressive in the meta, the next FAQ update will probably limit the bonus to something like 3 extra mw.

[Maddpainting]

We are talking about getting 3-4 endless spells, 3-4 horrors and a couple gaunt summoners near it. Its not going to be nerf, remember its only +1 MW for each extra not +D3 more.

On average in a list like this its going to be 3-5+D3 MW's which isn't to bad.

I had a similar idea, but i was 3 Gaunt summoners, Be'lakor and a Tzeentch DP, Gemini's + Purple sun + Rift, and the rest as marauders/horses.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Maddpainting

[TheVenerableBede]

26 minutes ago, KoalaSnok said:

Soooo, if it's too oppressive in the meta, the next FAQ update will probably limit the bonus to something like 3 extra mw.

3MW ... On a 6up, if this FAQ is any guideline 😀

[Oldshrimpeyes]

This book really has turned out to be a dissapointment and the FAQ just seemed to hammer it even harder. 

[Smooth criminal]

2 hours ago, Oldshrimpeyes said:

This book really has turned out to be a dissapointment and the FAQ just seemed to hammer it even harder. 

Really now, it nerfed the things everyone expected to get nerfed and clarified things that urgently needed to be clarified. It was a good faq.

[Kasper]

4 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

We are talking about getting 3-4 endless spells, 3-4 horrors and a couple gaunt summoners near it. Its not going to be nerf, remember its only +1 MW for each extra not +D3 more.

On average in a list like this its going to be 3-5+D3 MW's which isn't to bad.

I had a similar idea, but i was 3 Gaunt summoners, Be'lakor and a Tzeentch DP, Gemini's + Purple sun + Rift, and the rest as marauders/horses.

Well the issue is in DoT where you have to get up in their face or you will be overwhelmed by horrors and taken apart by MW/endless spells. It's quite easy for them to throw down multiple endless spells and have loads of casters within 12", especially when Gaunt Summoners basically count as 2. It is beyond me they didn't make a hard cap on the additional MW it will do.

[annarborhawk]

13 hours ago, Roark said:

So Varanguard are no longer mixed weapon units despite having been (fairly uniquely) thus for years - since their release. That's a pretty nasty kick in the face to people who have bought and modelled these $100 kits in a particular way...

Let me tell you, snipping and pining those narrow hafts to convert everything to ensorcelled weapons was NOT fun. I'm glad I saved all my bits. 

[Rod]

my take on S2D, at leat without archaon,

MW galore.

 

Allegiance: Slaves to Darkness
- Damned Legion: Despoilers

Leaders
Chaos Lord on Daemonic Mount (170)
- Mark of Chaos: Slaanesh
Slaves to Darkness Daemon Prince (210)
- General
- Axe
- Trait: Paragon of Ruin
- Artefact: Diabolic Mantle
- Mark of Chaos: Slaanesh

Battleline
5 x Chaos Knights (180)
- Ensorcelled Weapons
- Mark of Chaos: Slaanesh
5 x Chaos Knights (180)
- Ensorcelled Weapons
- Mark of Chaos: Slaanesh
5 x Chaos Knights (180)
- Ensorcelled Weapons
- Mark of Chaos: Slaanesh
5 x Chaos Knights (180)
- Ensorcelled Weapons
- Mark of Chaos: Slaanesh
1 x Chaos Chariots (120)
- Greatblades
- Mark of Chaos: Slaanesh
1 x Chaos Chariots (120)
- Greatblades
- Mark of Chaos: Slaanesh

Battalions
Ruinbringer Warband (140)

Total: 1480 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 89
 

[Saturmorn Carvilli]

I can agree with a lot of whispersofblood is saying.  When I decided to play Age of Sigmar a few months ago I was very surprised to how they actually played compared to how I thought an army of elite Chaos mortals would play.  I figured some of that was just not having a battletome though.  With the battletome the army plays better but still isn't what I think of mortals devoted to Chaos.

In some respects they feel too tanky.  I go with large blocks of Warriors and Knights with an Undivided leader buff on them.  I got re-roll Saves for days (I have no less than 3 ways in my army) and those near my General have 6+ FNP.  Of course any Rend -2 attack makes those re-rolls pretty worthless though.  I have a better chance with Mortal Wounds at that point. 

Offensively, I haven't seen any of my units perform extraordinarily well.  The best was versus Maggotkin where my Daemonically Powered Warriors hit and wounded with nearly everything only to have the Nurgle player save nearly all it anyways (good rolls/re-rolls canceled by amazing rolls I guess).  My last game had seven knights (I couldn't get the other 3 in combat range which is common) charge a Dankhold Troll and only managed to bring it to 3 wounds remaining.  I can't remember if that was me rolling poorly or the troll soaking a lot of the damage or a combination of it, but I can stay my army constantly feel like it is under-performing when it causes damage.

As for the Errata, nothing within it changed my army.  I already keep my warriors and knights with same weapons and didn't use Nurgle anything.  I haven't managed to get Archaon or Varanguard onto the table yet.  I am as confused my the Overlords of Chaos change as much as I am about GW thinking the Varangaurd Circle abilities are remotely on the same power level as each other.

I completely agree with about the stacking on the same special ability which was one of my first criticisms of the new Slaves to Darkness battletome.  If I wanted to make a fluffy Khorne S2D army I would probably start with warriors with double hand weapons since Khorne is all about slaughter and blood and such.  But the nature of Slaves to Darkness is they want to have a Leader basically attached to the unit to activate the unit's Mark as well as whatever buff the Leader hands out.  So I have a Chaos Lord on foot hangout with my Warriors.  I now have redundancy in re-rolling hit rolls which isn't entirely useless, but it isn't useful most of the time.  Tzeetch marked are even worse as it would be hard for a unit to not have a couple/three ways re-rolls Saves.

I feel that the new Slaves to Darkness has given my army a fighting chance.  Which is a heck of a lot better than they had before.  I do think almost everything in the army feels too expensive unless you consider it having some sort of buff on it.  Which certainly isn't going to be possible all the time.  I have won at least one a game with them, but even then I think that was more to exploiting the fact I two opponents trying to work together to fight me and weren't on the same page the first couple of rounds.  I don't play in the most competitive of games, but I do think I am going to have my work cut out for me if I want to ever taste victory again.