NJohansson Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 If trying to be objective (I like the Book so I am biased) the biggest problem of the argument is that people mix freely between: 1) The competitive strength of the Book; 2) Internal balance in the Book; and 3) How the fluff fits the various units. 1) If looking at competitive strength - my opinion is that it is really good. The book has several strong builds and has placed high in several tournaments. No it is not top three on the power curve. IMHO (there are other contenders but these are mine) right now those books are OBR, Tzeentch and Slaanesh (although this is pre point changes and not taking into account Lumineth) but I would argue that no book should be on the same power level as those books. The winning builds (of said books) are not good for the game (very few armies can offer resistance, a new player does not stand a chance etc) and thus it is those books that should be modified and not StD that should become stronger. 2) Internal balance - the internal balance is not super. Both MoT and MoS are close to worthless compared to the other two marks and there are clear winners (from a point efficiency viewpoint) such as marauders. On the other hand show me one book with great internal balance? Even the top books have half of their entries at “you will never see this unit unless I like the models and don’t care for efficiency”. So asking for “I want all my models to be balanced” is really asking to play checkers since even in chess the Queen is far more valuable than everything else. If you must play with unit X - either accept that you will not build an optimal army or change unit X/army. 3) The fluff changes constantly and really is up to the artist and you as a reader. I have followed GW fluff for 20+ years. I have probably read more than 100 Black library books, I have read all army books of all armies from 4th edition WFB and onwards but regardless of my very personal and subjective feel on the matter - it is mine opinion and mine alone. I personally hate that MoT does not make you a wizard any longer. I find it irritating that my DP of Tzeentch no longer is a mage - but those are the rules and because of that my DP has become enraged, cursed his old master and is now a DP of Khorne (although very much more glittering and feathery than most Khorne DP). Fluff is fluff - and we have both Open play and Narrative play to cater to eventual fluff needs. Saying that the book is worthless because X (usually warriors) are not competitive/fluffy is like saying that DoT are worthless due to chariots and Spawn not making the cut. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The World Tree Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 1 hour ago, NJohansson said: If trying to be objective (I like the Book so I am biased) the biggest problem of the argument is that people mix freely between: 1) The competitive strength of the Book; 2) Internal balance in the Book; and 3) How the fluff fits the various units. 2) Internal balance - the internal balance is not super. Both MoT and MoS are close to worthless compared to the other two marks and there are clear winners (from a point efficiency viewpoint) such as marauders. On the other hand show me one book with great internal balance? Even the top books have half of their entries at “you will never see this unit unless I like the models and don’t care for efficiency”. So asking for “I want all my models to be balanced” is really asking to play checkers since even in chess the Queen is far more valuable than everything else. If you must play with unit X - either accept that you will not build an optimal army or change unit X/army. I don't disagree with your general point but Mark of Slaanesh is excellent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 (edited) The parts of the book that I really dislike and that need changing in my opionion are the following: - Auras: So a Chaos mark without a hero nearbly is worthless, this is quite against the lore. - Chaos Warriors and Knights: a.k.a. feared masters of pillowfighting. They need to be scary, yet they're the opposite. - Point costs: Units are pointed as if they were the best of the best, yet they're not. - The implementation of the Warcry warbands - Half-God Marauders: The disparity between these and chaos warriors is mind boggling. Marauders rise up to become warriors just to be worse after their rise to greatness? I won't talk about possible fixes since those have been discussed on this Thread thoroughly. - The "benefits" of being undivided In general there are some things I like about the rules, but by far not enough to heal the ever-occuring blow to the gut the missed chances and bad implementations cause. What I like: - The Aura System has potential, it simply wasn't harnessed. - Subfactions: These are really flavourful and can be cool. - Chaos War Mammoth! (<3) - Endless Spells 29 minutes ago, The World Tree said: show me one book with great internal balance? Exactly -> Sloppy product. DoK are actually rather neat concerning internal balance (esp. considering the amount of army choices). LoN (imo) is also rather good. Edited July 20, 2020 by JackStreicher 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dressedspring1 Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 Anyway, I finished up some stuff that embarrassingly I’d been bringing to the table top half painted for months before the ‘rona. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasman Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 11 hours ago, Sinfullyvannila said: And look what they did to my poor Thaumaturge. What's wrong with him? He looks solid, although I've never put him on the table....yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dressedspring1 Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 FAQ with points adjustments are out, we did pretty good chaos lord on crackerjack down 20 to 230 warriors down 10 to 90 knights down 20 to 160 And the nerfs are marauders up to 160 and marauder horsemen inexplicably up to 110 gaunt summoner got hit hard with the nerf bat and only summons 5 horrors now overall I think this makes knights a lot more attractive and my list with karkadrak and knights just opened up a bunch more points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimrock Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 (edited) Well, I guess I was wrong about the leaked FAQ points. I absolutely disagree that marauder horsemen needed to go up but what can you do. That along with the loss of the thermalrider cloak has killed my Corona painting project before I ever got to put it on the table. Guess I'll have to rework the list and see if I can make something fit. Edit: I'd probably say that I'm very unlikely to pay points for the horsemen now, don't seem worth it. They can do a lot of things but a 23% hike for models that do essentially 0 damage all game is too steep. Summoning them is still fine, but even in a ruinbringer I don't think there's much point since they just die after they cause their d3 damage. Knights seem fine at 160 so they can probably fill in but I probably won't buy any more of those unless we see a full resculpt with standard and musician. Warriors still need a specific build to make them useful but I guess it's a little less punishing to use big units now. Edited July 20, 2020 by Grimrock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dressedspring1 Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 Yeah the clobbering marauder horsemen got is really heavy handed and didn’t seem necessary. knights at 160 are reaaallly interesting though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 43 minutes ago, Dressedspring1 said: Anyway, I finished up some stuff that embarrassingly I’d been bringing to the table top half painted for months before the ‘rona. By Sigmar, that Karksdrak is Sweet! Do you have some close-ups? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 6 minutes ago, Dressedspring1 said: knights at 160 are reaaallly interesting though They need an faq that they can use swords and lances (declared at the start of the CC phase) 😕 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gistradagis Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 (edited) I'm a bit sad that the FAQ just changes few points, which mostly hurts the non-Archaon lists, and nothing else. Chaos Knights being 160 is great, they are finally priced fairly (even if the weapons thing is still nonsense), Chaos Warriors at 90 is negligible, but the changes to Marauders hurt. It makes sense, I get it, they were too good, but the reason they were used so much is that we don't really have anything else in their place that does the same thing. Monsters are still unusable in Despoilers, the Warcry units still don't get Mark. Edited July 20, 2020 by Gistradagis 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedMax Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 7 minutes ago, JackStreicher said: By Sigmar, that Karksdrak is Sweet! What surprise me more is that this Daemon Prince look... good ! I never bought it because he always look ugly on picture. This is first time I see him looking great! @Dressedspring1 good job man! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charleston Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 I like the changes, many as I´ve expected. Knights back at 160pts are good news, Karkadrak at 230 is now a must have, althrough I guess the bigger points decrease already concidered the missing ulgu shadowblade for matched play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The World Tree Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 7 minutes ago, Charleston said: I like the changes, many as I´ve expected. Knights back at 160pts are good news, Karkadrak at 230 is now a must have, althrough I guess the bigger points decrease already concidered the missing ulgu shadowblade for matched play. The Chamon artefact works nicely on him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimrock Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 3 minutes ago, Charleston said: I like the changes, many as I´ve expected. Knights back at 160pts are good news, Karkadrak at 230 is now a must have, althrough I guess the bigger points decrease already concidered the missing ulgu shadowblade for matched play. Yeah if the shadowblade still existed I'd say that the Karkadrak discount was amazing, but without it I really don't think he has any place. Without any rend on the halberd his average damage is absolutely abysmal for his points, even as a general with the mark of Khorne. The only way I can see him working is in ruinbringer but even then I don't think he'll put in enough work to make up for his cost. Too bad since I love the model, but I don't think I'll be using him again outside of the Khorne alleigance where he can still get some functional command traits and artifacts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dressedspring1 Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 @JackStreicher sure do! As you can see I’m not a super technical painter but I’ve come up with a style that kind of works more based on visual impact than skill I suppose, I’m really happy with it at any rate thanks @RedMax! It’s a pretty ugly model but the pose is cool and menacing at least. It also helps a lot to take the included 40K head that looks like a mutated space marine helmet and then shave off the top vent so it looks more natural, it’s definitely a much nicer head model than the other two options IMO 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midjithero Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 A lot of great comments about the point changes, but here’s my take: Marauders are still king - there is still almost zero incentive to take something else over marauder unless you need to squeeze something in due to points. marauder horsemen (my favorite unit mind you) will now very rarely see game play... Karkadrak - yes it dropped in points, but it didn’t need to because of access to a rend -3 artifacts. Helm of Many Eyes is “descent”...but not enough to make him worth taking. Gaunt Summoner- I’m happy with the nerf, it was way too strong and now we are more apt to summon furies for board control, plaguebeareres for defense, pinks for Cabalist lists, and daemonettes/bloodletters for offense Varanguard- honestly doesn’t change my views on them other than it’s still balanced with a unit of marauders. 260 will start to make them competitive, 250 I think ya the sweet spot Daemonfire Rift - needed to increase for sure, but is still an auto include. LRL still laugh at it, and it’ll be the go-to bottled spell for KO. they didn’t address any of the books “issues” - marauder spam, warcry not having marks, aura system, DPs not having Mortal keyword and not working with 90% of the book. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonko Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 24 minutes ago, Grimrock said: Yeah if the shadowblade still existed I'd say that the Karkadrak discount was amazing, but without it I really don't think he has any place. Without any rend on the halberd his average damage is absolutely abysmal for his points, even as a general with the mark of Khorne. The only way I can see him working is in ruinbringer but even then I don't think he'll put in enough work to make up for his cost. Too bad since I love the model, but I don't think I'll be using him again outside of the Khorne alleigance where he can still get some functional command traits and artifacts. He is actualy realy good in nurgle, they have a artifact that gives him -1 rend extra on all his weapons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gistradagis Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 3 minutes ago, Jonko said: He is actualy realy good in nurgle, they have a artifact that gives him -1 rend extra on all his weapons What? What artefact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dressedspring1 Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 He’s also great in Khorne with gorecleaver and hew the foe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 7 minutes ago, Jonko said: He is actualy realy good in nurgle Why is it always Nurgle!? 😭 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimrock Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 5 minutes ago, Gistradagis said: What? What artefact. Rustfang. Not quite -1 rend, it reduces the saves of one unit within 3" for the rest of the game at the start of every combat phase. Can't do it to the same unit more than once, but you can use it on different units in later turns. It's good on him for sure, but the problem is that you're still relying on his base stats for hitting/wounding which are only so so. Certainly an option but not great, I still think Khorne is the only way to use him now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gistradagis Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 Just now, Grimrock said: Rustfang. Not quite -1 rend, it reduces the saves of one unit within 3" for the rest of the game at the start of every combat phase. Can't do it to the same unit more than once, but you can use it on different units in later turns. It's good on him for sure, but the problem is that you're still relying on his base stats for hitting/wounding which are only so so. Certainly an option but not great, I still think Khorne is the only way to use him now. Ah, I was pretty confused cuz no such artefact exists lol. I wish. And I agree. Chaos Lord on Karkadrak does pretty much nothing in a Maggotkin list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smooth criminal Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 (edited) Knights at 160 are very good. The question is why would anyone use other units now. Don't like karkadrak over mounted lord or DP. Rip marauder ponies and gaunt. Furies are probably strictly better choice than marauder ponies now. I also think Varanguard in Empty throne host are a sleeper. They are your best "hero" deal in the book and the CP ability to deny scoring seems nuts. Edited July 21, 2020 by Smooth criminal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midjithero Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 1 hour ago, Smooth criminal said: Knights at 160 are very good. The question is why would anyone use other units now. Don't like karkadrak over mounted lord or DP. Rip marauder ponies and gaunt. Furies are probably strictly better choice than marauder ponies now. I also think Varanguard in Empty throne host are a sleeper. They are your best "hero" deal in the book and the CP ability to deny scoring seems nuts. Knights are meh...I had fun with a 10 block w/ Lances and buffed by Karkadrak, but unless they killed their target in 1 turn, they fought with pool noodles afterwards. i do agree that Varanguard as a leader unit is good, especially considering they get Leader and can cap objectives in the new battle plans. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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