Kurrilino Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 (edited) On 7/17/2020 at 6:30 PM, Tizianolol said: I was reading past diacussions. Immagine in this scenario. If you got a unit that can pile in 6" ( varguard of empty throne) if opponent has not unit that can pile to fight 3" , you pile in 6", you attack that unit but im pretty sure opponent cant strike back. I think opponent unit "lost" his pile in opportunity and when you pile 6 it cant attack anymore! This discussion is interesting! Sorry, your base assumption is already wrong. You can only pile in if one of following two conditions are fulfilled: A - Successful charge (1st model within 1/2 inch) B - Being already within 3 inches. The point of the rule is to get more units into combat range, not denying you opponent a combat phase Edited July 19, 2020 by Kurrilino 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurrilino Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 (edited) 20 hours ago, The World Tree said: Played another game with the Slaves to Darkness last night. Great fun as always on the Blade's Edge. I do think we have a really fun book with a huge variety of effective army archetypes. It is just weird that the most iconic units are a bit rubbish. Warshrines are so annoying - rolled a 1 every time for their blessing... - I do think we have a really fun book - It is just weird that the most iconic units are rubbish May i ask how you combine those 2 things ???????? I want to have fun too but garbage units and fun somehow doesn't work for me Edited July 19, 2020 by Kurrilino Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldarain Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 @Kurrilino They gave the Varanguard item the exception to do so outside of 3". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurrilino Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 12 minutes ago, Eldarain said: @Kurrilino They gave the Varanguard item the exception to do so outside of 3". You are absolutely right. I missed the grasping plate Please ignore everything i said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The World Tree Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 4 hours ago, Kurrilino said: - I do think we have a really fun book - It is just weird that the most iconic units are rubbish May i ask how you combine those 2 things ???????? I want to have fun too but garbage units and fun somehow doesn't work for me Because many of the other units are fun to use? When I say iconic units I mean knights (which are tolerable) and warriors (which are atrocious). That is why I specified weird. In terms of design it has several good sub-allegiances and there tends to be high variety in lists. Both of those are good things. The problem is a few warscrolls are strange; Warriors need rend 1, Knights should have both weapon options; Warshrine is too variable (the secondary effect should happen on the 3+). Plus the army's allegiance abilities are too conditional (EOTG is a bonus, not an ability, aura of chaos is too restrictive). There are lots of phenomenal warscrolls in the list and the interaction of the different unit is really interesting and creates a high amount of depth when using the army. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cplhicks Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 Yes the army is quite chaotic in design isn't it? I too wish that Warriors and Knights were better as I love the models and "feel" like what the army is all about to me imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charleston Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 Well, Chaos Warriors go toe to toe with Liberators, offering even more deffensive capabilities and can be easily buffed. Also, Warriors have more weapon options to offer. All on a base with a smaller footprint. I guess they lack that one special weapon per unit but are still a unit in an overall okay shape. Knights meanwhile offer an mix of anvil and hammer. While on their own their damage seems rather small, 3 of 4 gods- auras improve them to formidable damage dealers. Also, we have two dedicated CA´s to bring them in form. Nurgle Knights with the Warshrine Buff and with Enscrolled Weapons, Khorne Knights with Lances and the Karkadrak Buff, Slaaneshi-Knights with the Aura. Althrough I have to admit, that I would like to see Knights drop 10 pts and I also miss the super cheap Chariots that we had before and tend to call some of our Heroes (like the Lord on Manticore) a bit overpriced. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimbok Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 (edited) Lets make a new start collecting box with iconic and beautiful chaos warriors, knights and an awesome chaos lord. Then make them really really bad, while making butt ugly marauders godlike powerful, while our new pretty warcry warbands are not battleline...classic GW... It’s really really weird...ok, the karkadrak is a good warscroll design. A bit expensive, but good warsroll. Knights hitting on 4’s...come on. They need to hit harder on the warscroll and stay expensive. Chaos warriors make no sense, defensive buff in large squads of killer elite psychos...ehhh..what. So we have three basic and classic units that should be the building blocks of the army, chaos warriors, marauders and knights. And they are terribly designed warscrolls. Oh and Varanguard at 280...not. Grimbok Edited July 19, 2020 by Grimbok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tizianolol Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 12 hours ago, Kurrilino said: Sorry, your base assumption is already wrong. You can only pile in if one of following two conditions are fulfilled: A - Successful charge (1st model within 1/2 inch) B - Being already within 3 inches. The point of the rule is to get more units into combat range, not denying you opponent a combat phase O nice, basically i can pile 6"but i have to stay within 3". If im far i cant pile in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The World Tree Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 47 minutes ago, Charleston said: Well, Chaos Warriors go toe to toe with Liberators, offering even more deffensive capabilities and can be easily buffed. Also, Warriors have more weapon options to offer. All on a base with a smaller footprint. I guess they lack that one special weapon per unit but are still a unit in an overall okay shape. They are really bad. Yes they can be made durable with relatively high investment (min. 270 for the unit, warshrine and nurgle). But to what end? They'll get whittled down and those buffs are better placed on units that will have offensive value. The reason people dislike them is because they do nothing. They don't play like the background. Chaos Knights aren't great but they can basically function in that way (o' how I wish for them to be better!). Warriors just stand there and are killed. Marauders* have rend! Namarti thralls have rend! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutton Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 It is a bit insulting that 'Ardboyz are better elite troops than Chaos Warriors. Seriously, all they needed was some rend. I think GW continues to forget that just because it's on a 32mm base with 2 wounds, doesn't mean it's automatically good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Mutton said: It is a bit insulting that 'Ardboyz are better elite troops than Chaos Warriors. Seriously, all they needed was some rend. I think GW continues to forget that just because it's on a 32mm base with 2 wounds, doesn't mean it's automatically good. Feels more like a trend with GW really: 40K Chaos is rubbish and Marines are a joke and it‘s the same for AoS 🤣 But remember: The promo-Battle in White Dwarf (StD VS Lumineth) was a draw... in truth it would be a massacre for the aelves. Edited July 19, 2020 by JackStreicher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The World Tree Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 20 minutes ago, JackStreicher said: Feels more like a trend with GW really: 40K Chaos is rubbish and Marines are a joke and it‘s the same for AoS 🤣 But remember: The promo-Battle in White Dwarf (StD VS Lumineth) was a draw... in truth it would be a massacre for the aelves. This is simply not accurate. The Slaves to Darkness book can have several strong builds. Chaos Warriors as a warscroll are diabolical. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 39 minutes ago, The World Tree said: Chaos Warriors as a warscroll are diabolical. Simply not caring. they don‘t play as they should do lore-wise. And the builds are too narrow and focused on a Single god I personally dislike. thx no thx. Pretty bad book Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJohansson Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 1 hour ago, JackStreicher said: Simply not caring. they don‘t play as they should do lore-wise. And the builds are too narrow and focused on a Single god I personally dislike. thx no thx. Pretty bad book Every 10th page or so we return to “bad book - the sky is falling”. Despite the relatively good success rate of various StD builds and high placings at tournament (before Covid) still the same argument comes back. The lore (or ones opinion of it) is highly subjective. If you don’t like the book - there are many others that may give you a better feeling for fluff, lore, right good etc. Does not make the book bad, just not right for you. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dressedspring1 Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 Honestly the book has some design decisions that are questionable but I really don’t think things are as dire as it would seem given the never ending negativity of some of the regulars in this thread. If you want to win tournaments this is probably not going to be the book you do it with, but honestly the “armies that you can win a tournament with” list is exceptionally small and if that’s all you’re after you should just buy the tzeentch tome and get over it. The never ending stream of complaints and negativity whenever someone tries to discuss this army is not helpful or even interesting at this point. Yes, you are unhappy with this book, no we are not your support group that is here to listen to you rehash your feelings on this Battletome every time someone says something positive. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitGas Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 (edited) Funny, wouldn't have thought I'd see a single person outside of the writer of this pathetic battletome that would argue that Chaos Warriors are at a good spot. They are neither well written compared to other, similar units nor from a fluff perspective (they should be stronger than ardboys and tear other elites like puny Aelfs limb from limb). As long as that (and a couple of other) warscroll doesn't get fixed, this BT will stay a failure. Edited July 19, 2020 by MitGas 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurrilino Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 9 hours ago, Tizianolol said: O nice, basically i can pile 6"but i have to stay within 3". If im far i cant pile in? Exactly. Either being withing 3" or having done a successful charge. Let's assume you successfully charge with 2 units of vanguards. The 1st units wipes the enemy out. The 2nd Unit can pile in 6" since they did a successful charge as well. The Vanguard Throne Battalion is one of the very few exceptions having a direct rule overwriting the regular pile in. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinfullyvannila Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, MitGas said: Funny, wouldn't have thought I'd see a single person outside of the writer of this pathetic battletome that would argue that Chaos Warriors are at a good spot. They are neither well written compared to other, similar units nor from a fluff perspective (they should be stronger than ardboys and tear other elites like puny Aelfs limb from limb). As long as that (and a couple of other) warscroll doesn't get fixed, this BT will stay a failure. The BT lifted the literal worst army in the game squarely into the fat middle. My only issues are the extremely poor wording on Knights and Warriors weapons, and in a perfect world I’d rather Have the option not to run a subfaction. That’s about a 98% success rate in my book. Everything can be fixed with points adjustments but with the exception of Marauders being obscenely undercosted; the rest of the points are fine in a vacuum. Massively overpowered and internally garbage balanced Books like OBR, Slaanesh and Tzeentch should be considered failures. Especially Slaanesh as it was just obscene when it came out. Tzeentch is my main army, and that book was a massive disappointment. No internal balance. Balance benefiting mutual NPE. Broken and convoluted warscrolls. Extremely poorly worded rules that made it almost impossible to adjudicate how they work with your opponent. Reinterpretation of old rules completely out of left field in FAQs. Even the non-rules sections were terrible. Overhyped and massively under delivered how-to-paint section(No Kairos? Arbitrary Lord of Change color scheme change. Over focus on trivially easy units like Horrors? Actually taking out the two page Arcanite Cult spread from the first one? WHYYYY!?) although I blame that on influencers. Like; 1 paragraph added to lore and weird references to older warscrolls abilities. And look what they did to my poor Thaumaturge. Edited July 20, 2020 by Sinfullyvannila 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dressedspring1 Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Sinfullyvannila said: 5 hours ago, MitGas said: The BT lifted the literal worst army in the game squarely into the fat middle. and really, this is a pretty good place to be. People at my shop play beasts of chaos, mawtribes, Stormcast, FEC, Sylvaneth, fireslayers, tzeentch, DoK and OBR, I tend to have good games with all of them. My friend who plays tzeentch showed up with flamers and horrors you couldn’t retreat from when the tome was new and changed his army before coming back to the shop A second time because literally nobody had a good time or was interested in playing with him again. I’ve shown up with ravagers, cabalists and despoilers and had fun games trying new stuff out, winning around 50% of the games I’m playing, which is an excellent place to be when you’re playing pick-up games or friendly leagues. We have a LOT of good units to experiment with in the book. Marauders are ridiculously good, marauder horsemen are excellent screens, Khorne demon prince CA is fantastic, Chaos Lord on Karkadrak is a decent blender, Sorceror on Manticore gives us a ton of value on a flying mount that can do damage in combat, gaunt summoners can drop a tarpit of horrors and provide spell casting in a very efficient points cost, Be’lakor ability is one of the most disruptive abilities in the game, Chosen provide good combat damage output, warshrine is an awesome model with powerful but inconsistent buffs, there is a TON of stuff to experiment with in the book and even varanguard and Archaon builds were doing well pre COVID. Chaos warriors are below average to average for a battleline choice. Whatever 🤷♂️ Edited July 20, 2020 by Dressedspring1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 (edited) 8 hours ago, NJohansson said: there are many others that may give you a better feeling for fluff, lore, right good etc. Does not make the book bad, just not right for you. That my friend is ignorant and short sighted 🙃 I have the minis, I want to play them but the book does not deliver the proper feeling (or power level of the most iconic warscrolls) - that is a bad, sloppy product. Yet let‘s await the FAQ, perhaps the army will be „right for me then“ 😉 Edited July 20, 2020 by JackStreicher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimrock Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 1 hour ago, JackStreicher said: That my friend is ignorant and short sighted 🙃 I have the minis, I want to play them but the book does not deliver the proper feeling (or power level of the most iconic warscrolls) - that is a bad, sloppy product. Yet let‘s await the FAQ, perhaps the army will be „right for me then“ 😉 Well I play all of the chaos god factions and they've all got at least one unit that's sub optimal or massively disappointing. I'd wager a guess that's consistent for every single book in the game. So I guess they're all bad and sloppy? Just because a book has a sub optimal choice doesn't immediately mean it's bad. I get that chaos warriors are iconic, but they aren't critical to the success of the tome or the faction. Would I love them to be amazing and match their lore? Absolutely. I feel the same way about skull cannons or blood warriors or plaguebearers or screamers or fiends, but that's not how the game works unfortunately. We either make due with what we have or give it a pass and don't spend our money on it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz Taylor Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 +++ Mod Hat On +++ Just a nudge but can I ask some of you to think about your phrasing. We try not to have things too negative on this forum as it’s not a pleasant thing to read when you just want to relax (especially how things are now). I’m not saying you can’t say things are bad, but try to keep it constructive. If you aren’t happy with a Battletome, let GW know. Try to go to events (when they happen) where you can chat to the designers. Give constructive feedback if they ask for it. Email stuff to them. They do lurk on this forum from time to time and will read stuff 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonko Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 I haven't said a bad thing about our battletome so far. I like the book but i agree it's not 100% there yet and need a little fixing. I can especialy feel with the whole topic about chaos warrios, they just dont feel great bringing them along, but they are battleline, iconic and should feel better. i feel like giving them reroll save rolls from the start whould make them feel a bit more usefull, instead having to have 300 points for 15 in a unit that feels bad. Or atleast, give them rerolls from the start if they are in 18/12 range of a hero for example. All we can hope for is that the devs are reading these posts and bring some love to our most elite units, which let's be honnest we all like to bring to the table without having regrets. That being said, i also think becouse of the corona crisis most things got delayed.. aswell as warhammer stuff. they measure the strenght of armies with tournaments, those were on a halt. so let's just wait a little longer and see how we wil end up when a FAQ comes out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikeymajq Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 (edited) Played a 1250 game with my list being mostly knights and chariots in a ravager subfaction with the nurgle keyword. I had two lords on daemon pony and boy did they carry my army. My 5 knights with lances did like 3 wounds on the charge even with the +1 to hit CA and then 3 of them died. Getting two 5man extra marauder horsemen in evened it out if anything. And I used my chariots to tie up units and managed to win (just barely) on pts, but I had sooo little left that some bad dice rolling would probably see me tabled quickly. I think I just got lucky and managed to position well, for once 😆 Edited July 20, 2020 by Mikeymajq Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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