AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion

[Kramer]

On 4/17/2020 at 4:37 AM, readercolin said:

So you go through this list and  you ask yourself - am I actually gaining/losing something by going Slaanesh instead of StD or StD instead of Slaanesh?  Lets be honest - in most of these cases, Slaanesh allegience is better than StD allegience.  The real attraction to StD would probably actually be the ease with which you could play some Tzeentch or Khorne units alongside your slaanesh units.  But if you are specifically looking at it as a solely Slaanesh army, the Slaanesh battletome is probably going to win every time.

Thanks for the write up! have mulled it over for a day... but honestly your comparisons aren't what bothers me. It did help me figure out what bothers me though! 

Regarding your points. That's way too much from a gameplay/competitive perspective for me with this army. If I want to win I take my Ogors, if I want a tactical challenge my KO. So that the allegiance abilities are better in Slaanesh... meh. 

But your point, and that of @JackStreicher, I should leave the full Slaanesh idea a bit more and mix things in. I'm going to look over the ranges and see if something sparks 👍

Regarding what bothers me... I agree with you on the battalions so I might just skip one of those all together. But also none of the allegiance abilities really excite me yet. They are so demanding in what to take.  As soon as I start writing a list I end up with Despoilers and the mounted battalion. All together i'm already 1K into my list by the time i've filled all that. Not liking the marauder models really forces me away from Ravagers, so I should find a conversion or something for that. 

So I'm going to write a list for every subfaction until I have one that I like for all off them. So in the wise words of Arnie; 'I'll be back'.

On 4/17/2020 at 6:38 AM, JackStreicher said:

So why should you play S2D? For the style and fun, if you want to win you should avoid fights and play the deny game however

Good summary, and i'll build for that playstyle  

Edited April 18, 2020 by Kramer

[Infernalslayer]

10 hours ago, begleysm said:

I also just got excited about the Legion of Azgorh Forgeworld model Shar'tor the Executioner and just want to paint him because he's so cool! (reminds me of a Warcraft Pit Lord).

Started considering how I could use him and noticed we can't ally in Legion of Azgorh (but they can ally in StD!) (Edit: I learned that basically nobody can ally in LoA)  Lame (even though he probably wouldn't synergize that well).

I'm thinking about trying to mount him on a 120mm base and running him as a Slaughterbrute or putting him on a 120mm base and adding big wings and running him as a Chaos Lord on Manticore.  Maybe seeing it he'll fit on a 75mm base and running him as a Chaos Lord on Karkadrak (but I doubt he'll fit).

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Shartor-the-Executioner-FW

The Lord on Karkadrak is on a 90mm oval base so you might be able to squeeze Shar'tor on that one. Manticore with some added wings is a good idea as well!

[begleysm]

20 minutes ago, Infernalslayer said:

The Lord on Karkadrak is on a 90mm oval base so you might be able to squeeze Shar'tor on that one. Manticore with some added wings is a good idea as well!

Duh yeah.  I meant 90mm base.  Thanks for the reminder.

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

Random thought--does anyone else feel the biggest weakness for Chaos Knights is actually their base size, not their cost? I was comparing them to various other faction's similar units, and they actually don't come out that short, except they have difficulty concentrating their force on a single target. For example, I've seen posts by Cities of Sigmar players praising Demigryph Knights, which are similarly costed. They have less wounds per point, the same save, and their total attacks per point is barely above what ensorcelled blades alone put out, before the horse attacks (which are, admittedly, pretty bad, but dice are dice, and rolling more of them can be useful). The biggest differences to my eyes are the mortal wounds from the demigryphs, which are admittedly pretty useful, but not reliable, and the fact that three models can concentrate those attacks much more easily than five given the same base size. Similarly, Kavalos Deathriders might be a little better for points, but their smaller base size makes using them much, much easier, leading to a far larger disparity.

Am I totally off-base in thinking this? On the one hand, it's nice to think that Chaos Knights are not actually overpriced. On the other, it does mean decreasing their cost is at most a partial fix to their real issues.

[Hannibal]

11 minutes ago, RocketPropelledGrenade said:

Random thought--does anyone else feel the biggest weakness for Chaos Knights is actually their base size, not their cost? I was comparing them to various other faction's similar units, and they actually don't come out that short, except they have difficulty concentrating their force on a single target. For example, I've seen posts by Cities of Sigmar players praising Demigryph Knights, which are similarly costed. They have less wounds per point, the same save, and their total attacks per point is barely above what ensorcelled blades alone put out, before the horse attacks (which are, admittedly, pretty bad, but dice are dice, and rolling more of them can be useful). The biggest differences to my eyes are the mortal wounds from the demigryphs, which are admittedly pretty useful, but not reliable, and the fact that three models can concentrate those attacks much more easily than five given the same base size. Similarly, Kavalos Deathriders might be a little better for points, but their smaller base size makes using them much, much easier, leading to a far larger disparity.

Am I totally off-base in thinking this? On the one hand, it's nice to think that Chaos Knights are not actually overpriced. On the other, it does mean decreasing their cost is at most a partial fix to their real issues.

IMO Warhammer has never been a game of cavalry war. There was not a single edition I can think of that favoured cavalry strikes. It was way too easy to negate their charge, they could only ever eat a full unit if charging the flanks (what was even easier to avoid). Fantasy was, is and will ever be a game of infantry. Infantry equals in more models which equals in more money. I guess that´s the reason.

[readercolin]

32 minutes ago, RocketPropelledGrenade said:

Random thought--does anyone else feel the biggest weakness for Chaos Knights is actually their base size, not their cost? I was comparing them to various other faction's similar units, and they actually don't come out that short, except they have difficulty concentrating their force on a single target. For example, I've seen posts by Cities of Sigmar players praising Demigryph Knights, which are similarly costed. They have less wounds per point, the same save, and their total attacks per point is barely above what ensorcelled blades alone put out, before the horse attacks (which are, admittedly, pretty bad, but dice are dice, and rolling more of them can be useful). The biggest differences to my eyes are the mortal wounds from the demigryphs, which are admittedly pretty useful, but not reliable, and the fact that three models can concentrate those attacks much more easily than five given the same base size. Similarly, Kavalos Deathriders might be a little better for points, but their smaller base size makes using them much, much easier, leading to a far larger disparity.

Am I totally off-base in thinking this? On the one hand, it's nice to think that Chaos Knights are not actually overpriced. On the other, it does mean decreasing their cost is at most a partial fix to their real issues.

While Chaos knights do have a large base size, I don't find them especially hard to get a unit of 5 into combat.  10 is usually a struggle though, unless they can engage multiple units.  On the other hand, getting 6 demi's into combat isn't exactly difficult, so in larger unit sizes the base size does make a difference.  As for damage wise, the two units are pretty similar from just the base warscroll abilities.  While the Demi's can get a +1 to hit from a variety of sources, either as static abilities, command points, or their battalion, Chaos Knights can get bonuses pretty easily from spells, warshrines, and mark buffs.  That being said, a unit of Demi's with lances isn't quite as pitiful off the charge as a unit of knights with lances.  Also, fully buffed from their Battalion, a unit of Demi's with lances on the charge to slightly less than a unit of Chaos Knights with lances that got full re-rolls (and without any mark buffs). 

However, Demi's do have a 3+ save, not a 4+ save, so they are slightly more durable than the Knights unless the Knights get to re-roll their saves, but on the other hand the knights have a 5+ save vs mortals that the demi's don't have, and a unit has 3 more wounds for the points.

So they are a fairly good comparison.  However, when you look at meta play, the Demi-gryph knights don't see competitive play.  They have a fun battalion that is great for casual play, but when you look at the cities and you look at their competitive lists, Demi's just straight up don't show up.  All the competitive lists are focused on either leveraging the cities shooting power (which if you look at the raw numbers is the best in the game) or are leveraging the sheer magical power that comes from Hallowheart.

It can clearly be argued that Demigryph Knights are overcosted and need a points drop.  It can also be clearly argued that Chaos knights are overcosted and need a points drop.  I would say that both knights can be fixed with a points drop, and they don't really need a rules change.  But I would say that both units are overcosted for what they do at the moment.

[Salyx]

1 hour ago, Hannibal said:

IMO Warhammer has never been a game of cavalry war. There was not a single edition I can think of that favoured cavalry strikes. It was way too easy to negate their charge, they could only ever eat a full unit if charging the flanks (what was even easier to avoid). Fantasy was, is and will ever be a game of infantry. Infantry equals in more models which equals in more money. I guess that´s the reason.

 

I would strongly disagree regarding WHFB 8th Edition. Ranks were 4 wide, Attacke striktes First and all models killed in base to base could not fight anymore. Everyone was playing those 5-man cavalry units and redirecting units which were cheap cavalry units. Infantery was only good when it was stubborn or unbreakable. 

Shooting only served for killing redirectors. Bretonnia s were one of the power house armies back then. However, the friends who recruited me for WHFB played Bretonnians, so I never had a Problem with them once I learned playing against them... with a Chaos Cavalry srmy mixed with monsters from BoC... 

[deumosd]

Sorry to post this sort of question but I can not find the answer in the FAQ- I might just be missing it, but I have tried.

can anyone please just confirm the base size of the chaos lord on foot please?

[The World Tree]

40 minutes ago, deumosd said:

Sorry to post this sort of question but I can not find the answer in the FAQ- I might just be missing it, but I have tried.

can anyone please just confirm the base size of the chaos lord on foot please?

40mm

[deumosd]

Thank you so much for that 

[JackStreicher]

12 hours ago, Salyx said:

I would strongly disagree regarding WHFB 7th Edition.

Corrected that for you

[Salyx]

32 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Corrected that for you

Thank you. Got too big Fingers

I originally meant the 6th Edition, when I started the game. 

[Sonnenspeer]

1 hour ago, The World Tree said:

40mm

Source?

P.S.: "Warhammer Age of Sigmar - Base Sizes" doc only has a Lord of Chaos with 32mm

Edited April 21, 2020 by Sonnenspeer

[JackStreicher]

3 hours ago, Sonnenspeer said:

Source?

P.S.: "Warhammer Age of Sigmar - Base Sizes" doc only has a Lord of Chaos with 32mm

It is 32mm

@deumosd

[deumosd]

Ok great- thanks for the correction. You are stars.

[The World Tree]

My mistake. Man, it will look stupid on a 32mm. 

[Sonnenspeer]

7 hours ago, The World Tree said:

My mistake. Man, it will look stupid on a 32mm. 

Thats true 

[Vitch_EGS]

Hi everyone I have been plotting away for a long time now in how I'n going to expand my Ravager army. Bounced between having allies such as some blightkings or followers of khorne, blobs of marauders using my cults as stand in.. but finally settled on an idea which gives me a good (I think) hammer/anvil look.

A lot of things are for aesthetic to make it look like a rambling horde of everything  but a part of me still always hopes that it will be playable and not a total disaster so any feedback or thoughts would be greatly appreciated. For example I'm so terrible at trying to do Battalions for some reason, but here is the list:

 

Allegiance: Slaves to Darkness
- Damned Legion: Ravagers
Mortal Realm: Chamon

Leaders
Chaos Lord on Karkadrak (250)     -  With the leaders and Sorceror I cant decide on gear and spells for now.
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne                                     
Ogroid Myrmidon (140)
- Mark of Chaos: Undivided
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (110)
- Mark of Chaos: Nurgle

Battleline
1 x Chaos Chariots (120)
- Greatblades
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
5 x Chaos Knights (180)
- Cursed Lance
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
10 x Chaos Warriors (200)
- Hand Weapon & Shield
- Mark of Chaos: Nurgle

Units
3 x Varanguard (300)
- 3x Daemonforged Blades
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
24 x Iron Golems (210)
6 x Furies (100)
1 x Fomoroid Crusher (100)
8 x Cypher Lords (70)

Behemoths
Chaos Warshrine (170)
- Mark of Chaos: Nurgle

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Darkfire Daemonrift (50)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 145
 

So plan is to have my "Castle" of Sorceror and Ogroid surronded by their cults, elite warriors and enslaved beasts pushing slow with the Warshrine. The Khorne aspect then of the mounted forces just push in as hard as they can. Thanks to being Ravagers I will have my two units of Marauder horsemen come in with javelins and start threatening lazy heroes or unguarded objectives. as well as the third rally call for some Spire Tyrants for flavour.

So thats the plan. Not too much to add to my to do list paint wise and look forward to it. Any advice before I fully commit will be great too. Cheers in advance! 

[JackStreicher]

19 hours ago, The World Tree said:

My mistake. Man, it will look stupid on a 32mm. 

Imo it looks super ok.

[Da Bid Dabid]

12 minutes ago, Vitch_EGS said:

Hi everyone I have been plotting away for a long time now in how I'n going to expand my Ravager army. Bounced between having allies such as some blightkings or followers of khorne, blobs of marauders using my cults as stand in.. but finally settled on an idea which gives me a good (I think) hammer/anvil look.

A lot of things are for aesthetic to make it look like a rambling horde of everything  but a part of me still always hopes that it will be playable and not a total disaster so any feedback or thoughts would be greatly appreciated. For example I'm so terrible at trying to do Battalions for some reason, but here is the list:

 

Allegiance: Slaves to Darkness
- Damned Legion: Ravagers
Mortal Realm: Chamon

Leaders
Chaos Lord on Karkadrak (250)     -  With the leaders and Sorceror I cant decide on gear and spells for now.
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne                                     
Ogroid Myrmidon (140)
- Mark of Chaos: Undivided
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (110)
- Mark of Chaos: Nurgle

Battleline
1 x Chaos Chariots (120)
- Greatblades
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
5 x Chaos Knights (180)
- Cursed Lance
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
10 x Chaos Warriors (200)
- Hand Weapon & Shield
- Mark of Chaos: Nurgle

Units
3 x Varanguard (300)
- 3x Daemonforged Blades
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
24 x Iron Golems (210)
6 x Furies (100)
1 x Fomoroid Crusher (100)
8 x Cypher Lords (70)

Behemoths
Chaos Warshrine (170)
- Mark of Chaos: Nurgle

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Darkfire Daemonrift (50)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 145
 

So plan is to have my "Castle" of Sorceror and Ogroid surronded by their cults, elite warriors and enslaved beasts pushing slow with the Warshrine. The Khorne aspect then of the mounted forces just push in as hard as they can. Thanks to being Ravagers I will have my two units of Marauder horsemen come in with javelins and start threatening lazy heroes or unguarded objectives. as well as the third rally call for some Spire Tyrants for flavour.

So thats the plan. Not too much to add to my to do list paint wise and look forward to it. Any advice before I fully commit will be great too. Cheers in advance! 

Overall I think the army will look great on the table. I don't have very many games under my belt so take this advice with that in mind. Chaos Warriors really want to be 15 strong not 10 from my limited experience. They will take a bit of a punch before losing their armor rerolls this way and you can save visions spell for other units. I would likely drop the Furies, since you mention the horsemen coming in to be a little bit of a mobile threat. The only easy and clean points to drop are Furies and Crusher.

[The World Tree]

10 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Imo it looks super ok.

 

It needs more space to breath imo - it feels cramped and top heavy. But I've seen your models on one of your blogs so I'm sure it will look great

[Vitch_EGS]

 

26 minutes ago, Da Bid Dabid said:

Overall I think the army will look great on the table. I don't have very many games under my belt so take this advice with that in mind. Chaos Warriors really want to be 15 strong not 10 from my limited experience. They will take a bit of a punch before losing their armor rerolls this way and you can save visions spell for other units. I would likely drop the Furies, since you mention the horsemen coming in to be a little bit of a mobile threat. The only easy and clean points to drop are Furies and Crusher.

Hmm I think furies wise I don't mind dropping at all so could be a way to squeeze in 5 more warriors for sure. Not overly invested in the Cypher lords too. So might take them out and see what change I would have leftover for maybe another character or something. Thanks for the advice!

[Browncoat89]

Hey guys, I'm new to this thread. I actually have a Chaos Dwarf army but, seeing as how we have been compendium for a while and may get discontinued, I have been working on builiding a Slaves to Darkness army with them to still be able to use my army. I have a lot of great substitutions in the army, but basically I'll be running my heavily armored dwarves and black orcs as chaos warriors and chosen with all of my mauraders  being represented by hobgoblin slaves. I want to run either Cabalists or Ravagers but it seems like the general consensus is that the Ravagers are going to be must stronger in the meta, is that correct? What are some of the big synergies in both of those armies I should look out for as I am building my list? Thanks for the help, the chaos dwarf army is so outdated they have hardly had any allegience abilities, no endless spells, etc so I'm having to catch up on some of that.

[Salyx]

3 hours ago, Vitch_EGS said:

Hi everyone I have been plotting away for a long time now in how I'n going to expand my Ravager army. Bounced between having allies such as some blightkings or followers of khorne, blobs of marauders using my cults as stand in.. but finally settled on an idea which gives me a good (I think) hammer/anvil look.

A lot of things are for aesthetic to make it look like a rambling horde of everything  but a part of me still always hopes that it will be playable and not a total disaster so any feedback or thoughts would be greatly appreciated. For example I'm so terrible at trying to do Battalions for some reason, but here is the list:

 

Allegiance: Slaves to Darkness
- Damned Legion: Ravagers
Mortal Realm: Chamon

Leaders
Chaos Lord on Karkadrak (250)     -  With the leaders and Sorceror I cant decide on gear and spells for now.
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne                                     
Ogroid Myrmidon (140)
- Mark of Chaos: Undivided
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (110)
- Mark of Chaos: Nurgle

Battleline
1 x Chaos Chariots (120)
- Greatblades
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
5 x Chaos Knights (180)
- Cursed Lance
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
10 x Chaos Warriors (200)
- Hand Weapon & Shield
- Mark of Chaos: Nurgle

Units
3 x Varanguard (300)
- 3x Daemonforged Blades
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
24 x Iron Golems (210)
6 x Furies (100)
1 x Fomoroid Crusher (100)
8 x Cypher Lords (70)

Behemoths
Chaos Warshrine (170)
- Mark of Chaos: Nurgle

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Darkfire Daemonrift (50)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 145
 

So plan is to have my "Castle" of Sorceror and Ogroid surronded by their cults, elite warriors and enslaved beasts pushing slow with the Warshrine. The Khorne aspect then of the mounted forces just push in as hard as they can. Thanks to being Ravagers I will have my two units of Marauder horsemen come in with javelins and start threatening lazy heroes or unguarded objectives. as well as the third rally call for some Spire Tyrants for flavour.

So thats the plan. Not too much to add to my to do list paint wise and look forward to it. Any advice before I fully commit will be great too. Cheers in advance! 

If you want to make your Warriors really resilient, you should make them at least 15.

Outside of an Archaon list, Varanguard are not really worth their points. For these points you could get 40 Marauders, who will fare much better. 

The Crusher, the Cypher Lords and the Iron Golems are not really worth it as well. Either they hit like a wet handkerchief or they die in droves. 

I do not think an endless spell for just one sorcerer, who already has one of the best spells in this faction, is worth it. 

The Ogroid is really only for lovers of this miniature. From the point of view of effectiveness, other options are better. I think that going with Khorne is not that good of an idea if you want Ravager summons, because the Sorcerer will not be able to get the mark of Khorne and emit the General`s aura. You should rather got with Nurgle, as you already have Units with this mark.

Chariots are only really worth it in the fitting Bataillon improving their impact hits. 

 

The more efficient units in the StD book are Marauders, Chaos Sorcerer Lord (on foot and Manticore), Chaos Lord on Foot and Karkadrak, Demon Prince and Warshrine.

However, if you have models that you love and want to play, go for it. If you want to make your own experiences with the StD Units, go for it. If you do not think that a list according to my advice will make your games fun, it is completely ok to play what you like.

I only gave you advice on how to make the list stronger. Play what you like and what is fun for you That is what the game is about after all 😃

[Vitch_EGS]

@Salyx Great advice and thank you a lot.

Sad to hear that about the Varanguard but it was being silly with them or even a Giant instead just to have everything look so random. The maruaders advice too I will definitely follow in later games by combining all my cults into mixed blobs for a more serious punch.  Chariot I might keep in just for looks sake and try and squeeze in the battalion when I start using marauders and all.

Hmm your Nurgle points good too I'm more than happy to go either or with these two gods and any extra range defense is always good. The endless spell too I will probably mess around with each one at least once as they are finished but I do get what you mean. Maybe if I had a Prince down the road it would begin seeing more use again then. 

Cheers again for the help!