AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion

[michu]

4 minutes ago, DarrinTheOccult said:

The rule says that a unit that carries chaos runeshields can save mortal wounds. First you calculate the damage, next you allocate wounds, so you don't have to kill shield guys (althought you can)

And in-universe you could say that Chaos Warrior with shield tried to protect their comrade not themself.

[Mcthew]

29 minutes ago, PALFORLIFE said:

It's not even like that's unique. You can mix saves you just remove the models that take the save if its mixed. See Ard Boyz with shields..

Didn't know that. Fair point.

[readercolin]

28 minutes ago, Mcthew said:

True - its never been needed before. But you're mixing save abilities here by saying you have half a unit that can save mortal wounds and half that don't. But you can pick which models your opponent can spell cast against? Sorry, but if someone tried that on me I'd think they were cheating.

This is already done if you are playing stormcast sequitors (you remove the shields before the grandhammers, and if you have no shields left in the unit then you can't re-roll saves anymore).  It is also done if you are playing Orruk Ardboys, where 2/5 models in the units can be given a shield that gives them a 6+ save after save.  These are just the first two other cases that I can think of off the top of my head because I've played with them/against them recently.  However, I'm sure that if I did some more digging I would find a few other units that have mixed saves.

Additionally, you can look at other units where there is a mixture of weapons used.  The most standout one is KO's Arkanaut company, where 3 out of every 10 models can be armed with another weapon (skyhook), and when the unit gets damaged, you take the non-special weapons out of the unit before you start taking the special ones.  However, there are PLENTY of other examples of similar units, and almost every unit also has a unit leader, while many have a banner/musician that you can choose to pull whenever you want as well.

[mmimzie]

38 minutes ago, Mcthew said:

True - its never been needed before. But you're mixing save abilities here by saying you have half a unit that can save mortal wounds and half that don't. But you can pick which models your opponent can spell cast against? Sorry, but if someone tried that on me I'd think they were cheating.

Kairic acolyte's already work this way. One shield buffs the whole unit with a mortal wound save.  It's a game of magic trying to perscribe any sort of logic is a mistake. There are about a 100 excuses you can make for any direction you like. 

For instance in this case I could say that you fire an arcane bolt at me and my warrior trys to blot the bolt with his save, but doesn't get it up in time, and thus is slain. 

 

Or I could say my warrior walk in shield wall formation with shield raise against enemy magic's. An arcane bolt flys through a gab in the Shield's, nailing a member of the back rank. 

 

I could also say your arcane bolt kills my shield weilding model, but to keep up the formation the warrior behind him drops his weapon and make the shield. Mind you this is how the game worked in warhammer fantasy battle. 

 

It's a game, basic in a magical fantasy land, and the second you try to apply common sense over some one else's common sense, you are wrong. 

41 minutes ago, DarrinTheOccult said:

The rule says that a unit that carries chaos runeshields can save mortal wounds. First you calculate the damage, next you allocate wounds, so you don't have to kill shield guys (althought you can)

I will note that mortal wound saves and any none army save specifically happens after the entire the attacks sequence and after allocating wounds.  This is specified in the chaos warrior war scroll and in every other special save.  The attack sequence is only for ranged and melee weapon attacks, and that feeds into wounds.

 

[zedatkinszed]

1 hour ago, PALFORLIFE said:

Each can be used as a pronoun when the subjects are already clear. In this case, the subject is "the unit consisting of any number of models".

The usage of "each" here after the comma implies that each person may have their own subject (models) different from the others.

Sorry dude, but no. The grammatical class of "each" is not the issue. The fact is that each and every are used synonymously in British English. In this case "each" is "all".  Using each to describe a group of models (each with their own individual profile) is more correct than saying "every" or "all".  

[The Cranky Dwarf]

What is people's read on chaos chosen? To me they seem like marginally better warriors. Am I missing something?

[Cauthon]

In Azyr, when you add a unit of chaos warriors to a list, you have the ability to select great blades, halberds AND chaos handweapons. In the same unit, at the same time. 

So if in the OFFICIAL list building app you can have mixed weapons.. that seems conclusive.

Gw are are the kings of copy/paste.  IMO if they wanted chaos warriors to not be able to mix weapons like before this army book, they’d have copy pasted their weapons blurb and there would have been no change.  

They intended for chaos warriors to mix weapons and it is also written that way. 

 

Boom!

 

 

 

[Grimrock]

Honestly it's pointless for people to argue the weapons at this point. The rules can be read either way and people are only going to be convinced when the FAQ drops. Send an email to the FAQ team and just don't build any models until they give a conclusive answer. There should be lots of other stuff to work on in the meantime. 

[Sedraxis]

20 minutes ago, Cauthon said:

In Azyr, when you add a unit of chaos warriors to a list, you have the ability to select great blades, halberds AND chaos handweapons. In the same unit, at the same time. 

So if in the OFFICIAL list building app you can have mixed weapons.. that seems conclusive.

This goes for every unit in the game with multiple weapon options.

[PALFORLIFE]

1 hour ago, zedatkinszed said:

Sorry dude, but no. The grammatical class of "each" is not the issue. The fact is that each and every are used synonymously in British English. In this case "each" is "all".  Using each to describe a group of models (each with their own individual profile) is more correct than saying "every" or "all".  

Yes each and every can be used synonymously but guess what it would still mean the same thing. That every model is armed with one of the following. Meaning you make a choice for EVERY model individually still. You simply proved a point I already made. Until the FAQ comes out I will play this RAW and continue to mix weapons. 

Edited December 15, 2019 by PALFORLIFE

[JonnyTheKing]

Getting back on topic... what do people think would make a good 1K list?

[Gibs]

1 hour ago, Cauthon said:

In Azyr, when you add a unit of chaos warriors to a list, you have the ability to select great blades, halberds AND chaos handweapons. In the same unit, at the same time. 

So if in the OFFICIAL list building app you can have mixed weapons.. that seems conclusive.

Gw are are the kings of copy/paste.  IMO if they wanted chaos warriors to not be able to mix weapons like before this army book, they’d have copy pasted their weapons blurb and there would have been no change.  

They intended for chaos warriors to mix weapons and it is also written that way. 

 

Boom!

 

 

 

 Nice!

1) Interpretation of the written rules says you can have mixed weapons

2) Battles in the book have units with mixed weapons

3) The offical app lets you mix weapons in the same unit 

That is more than enough to go ahead and run mixed weapons in the army.  If it gets an FAQ so be it but at this point nothing is hinting it was anything other than intended. Quite frankly, it’s a good change and adds flavour to the army and list building. 

Edited December 15, 2019 by Gibs

[BaronBanana]

I haven't played with mixed armies much, mostly just playing with a friend's BCR army, so I have a few questions. 

 

When choosing the mark of chaos for a specific God, can you then declare your allegiance to be that God and choose any warscroll between the StD and the god you picked book? 

 

If the previous answer is yes, can I then choose spells from the god lore for my StD wizards? 

[mmimzie]

I mean azyr also says the gaunt summoner on disc is 200pts.

Edited December 15, 2019 by mmimzie

[CeleFAZE]

48 minutes ago, JonnyTheKing said:

Getting back on topic... what do people think would make a good 1K list?

I'm looking at despoilers currently:

Daemon Prince (Sword, General: Radiance of Dark Glory, Armor of Tormented Souls, Slaanesh)

Sorceror Lord on Manticore (Whispers of Chaos, Slaanesh)

5 Chaos Warriors (HW+Sh, Slaanesh)

5 Chaos Knights (Lances, Slaanesh)

Soulgrinder (Slaanesh)

Eightfold Doom-Sigil (point filler)

[Filie]

What weapons do you guys think are the best on Chaos Knights?

The swords seem superior if the combat lasts more than one round, but i'm unsure if I should be planning for longer engagements with the knights. I'm also curious if  the flail is worth it.

[CeleFAZE]

8 minutes ago, BaronBanana said:

I haven't played with mixed armies much, mostly just playing with a friend's BCR army, so I have a few questions. 

 

When choosing the mark of chaos for a specific God, can you then declare your allegiance to be that God and choose any warscroll between the StD and the god you picked book? 

 

If the previous answer is yes, can I then choose spells from the god lore for my StD wizards? 

If you pick the god-specific allegiance you can include any S2D units that can be marked for that god without problems, but you won't receive any of the S2D allegiance abilities or the S2D spell lore, though if your book has a spell lore for mortal wizards they can pick from that. If you're going Slaves to Darkness for your allegiance however, any of the warscrolls outside that book will have to be allies.

[BaronBanana]

3 minutes ago, CeleFAZE said:

If you pick the god-specific allegiance you can include any S2D units that can be marked for that god without problems, but you won't receive any of the S2D allegiance abilities or the S2D spell lore, though if your book has a spell lore for mortal wizards they can pick from that. If you're going Slaves to Darkness for your allegiance however, any of the warscrolls outside that book will have to be allies.

Thanks.  Using thus logic, I can't pick from a god lore if my s2d army is that mark of chaos in an s2d allegiance, correct? 

 

If taking Archaon in a tzeentch army for destiny dice, would that make him a terror if you roll at least 2 6s for DDice

Edited December 15, 2019 by BaronBanana

[CeleFAZE]

1 minute ago, BaronBanana said:

Thanks.  Using thus logic, I can't pick from a god lore if my s2d army is that mark of chaos in an s2d allegiance, correct? 

 

If taking Archaon in a tzeentch army for destiny dice, would that make him a terror if you roll at least 2 6s for DDice

Correct, spell lores are locked to your allegiance, so if you're going Tzeentch for the dice you'll only have access to the Tzeentch lore.

[Charleston]

Okay, first game done today. 2vs 2 with Gobbos against Sylvaneth and OBR (Petrifex).

My list was the Despoilers Khorne List mentioned above:

Spoiler

Despoilers

Daemon Prince - Mark of Khorne - General - Trait: Radiance of Dark Glory

Daemon Prince - Mark of Khorne

Chaos Lord on Manticore - Mark of Khorne - Diabolic Mantle (D3 CP´s)

Chaos Lord - Mark of Khorne

Chaos Knights - Lances - Mark of Khorne

Chaos Chariot - Greatblade - Mark of Khorne

Slaughterbrute - Mark of Khorne

Soul Grinder - Mark of Khorne

Well, the game was a lot of fun, althrough I shamefully must admit that I became a saltmine during the game as I´ve heard about that OBR Harvester Heal. After noticing that I am not affected as I only have 12 models I cooled down and managed to not kill anything important beside that Harvester and Allarielle.

To make it short: Despoilers are quite fun and powerfull, althrough I noticed midway that I played them wrong. I wanted the Lord on Manticore to be a "Fight Twice, heal and do anything else" hero, which was quite a fail as without the Helom of Many Eyes the Model dies before hitting anything. Meanwhile DP´s are great. The Khorne Aura had amazing value, I highly doubt Nurgle would be close to achive as much in stabilising the output. The CA of the Khorne DP is also pure gold. It kept really really bad charges away. We talk about Allarielle with bug getting 2.5" failcharge.

Meanwhile, the Lord of Chaos and Lord of Chaos on Manticore were nice beaters but hardly worth it. The Sorceror counterparts would have been of more value and will be my alternations for future games.

Knights were amazing, shot Allarielle 9 Wounds on the Charge and were theoretically able to fight twice due to the Lord of Chaos. Amazing what 1 pt of Rend more can achive.

I was suprised by the Chariot output. The greatblade is neat. Still hard to justify the 120pts, but time will tell.

Slaughterbrute and Soul Grinder did nothing as usual, still nice for the rule of cool. Will try the next game without one of them so I can include some Warriors as battleline.

All in all a great first experience, althrough I have to learn to handle my hate on Death-Reanimation and heal

 

[TheVenerableBede]

2 hours ago, Cauthon said:

In Azyr, when you add a unit of chaos warriors to a list, you have the ability to select great blades, halberds AND chaos handweapons. In the same unit, at the same time. 

So if in the OFFICIAL list building app you can have mixed weapons.. that seems conclusive.

Gw are are the kings of copy/paste.  IMO if they wanted chaos warriors to not be able to mix weapons like before this army book, they’d have copy pasted their weapons blurb and there would have been no change.  

They intended for chaos warriors to mix weapons and it is also written that way. 

 

Boom!

 

 

 

Azyr may not be the be all and end all though. Just two examples:

1. It won't let me choose a spell from the lore of Nurgle for my chaos sorcerer lord, in a Nurgle allegiance, despite him having the Nurgle and Mortalm keywords.

2. When i add the pestilent throng battalion with Nurgle allegiance, Grashrak isn't under Allies but his despoilers are.

[Sinfullyvannila]

5 hours ago, zedatkinszed said:

The chaos warrior warscroll is crystal clear:

In English this means all models in the unit are armed in the same way. 

Compare with Tzaangors:

Same with Kairic Acolytes:

Comapre with Blood Warriors:

As you say GW is consistent regarding varied weapon usage within a unit. They say "Each unit fights with a variety of weapons". With Chaos Warriors they don't say this.

While the rule writting might be slightly different i.e it doesn't say "the unit is armed with" , the sentence as written (and as clearly intend, see box art etc), in English, means that each model in the unit is armed with the same one of the options. Any other construction on that sentence is not English grammar, and to be frank, is wishful thinking at best.

Unit is singular so “each” would only apply in a context where multiple units would be relevant. Since only one unit is relevant in this phrase and section; each can only refer to the part which refers to a plurality. The plurality in question is models.

 

There is in fact no part of this warscroll that refers to any plurality of units.

Edited December 15, 2019 by Sinfullyvannila

[Malakithe]

8 hours ago, Graftonianman said:

Khorne general with Helm of Many Eyes in the bloodmarked warband. You give your big knight unit +1A, to wound and hit! 

Ooh is that Despoiler or Ravager?

[Malakithe]

53 minutes ago, Charleston said:

Okay, first game done today. 2vs 2 with Gobbos against Sylvaneth and OBR (Petrifex).

My list was the Despoilers Khorne List mentioned above:

  Reveal hidden contents

Despoilers

Daemon Prince - Mark of Khorne - General - Trait: Radiance of Dark Glory

Daemon Prince - Mark of Khorne

Chaos Lord on Manticore - Mark of Khorne - Diabolic Mantle (D3 CP´s)

Chaos Lord - Mark of Khorne

Chaos Knights - Lances - Mark of Khorne

Chaos Chariot - Greatblade - Mark of Khorne

Slaughterbrute - Mark of Khorne

Soul Grinder - Mark of Khorne

Well, the game was a lot of fun, althrough I shamefully must admit that I became a saltmine during the game as I´ve heard about that OBR Harvester Heal. After noticing that I am not affected as I only have 12 models I cooled down and managed to not kill anything important beside that Harvester and Allarielle.

To make it short: Despoilers are quite fun and powerfull, althrough I noticed midway that I played them wrong. I wanted the Lord on Manticore to be a "Fight Twice, heal and do anything else" hero, which was quite a fail as without the Helom of Many Eyes the Model dies before hitting anything. Meanwhile DP´s are great. The Khorne Aura had amazing value, I highly doubt Nurgle would be close to achive as much in stabilising the output. The CA of the Khorne DP is also pure gold. It kept really really bad charges away. We talk about Allarielle with bug getting 2.5" failcharge.

Meanwhile, the Lord of Chaos and Lord of Chaos on Manticore were nice beaters but hardly worth it. The Sorceror counterparts would have been of more value and will be my alternations for future games.

Knights were amazing, shot Allarielle 9 Wounds on the Charge and were theoretically able to fight twice due to the Lord of Chaos. Amazing what 1 pt of Rend more can achive.

I was suprised by the Chariot output. The greatblade is neat. Still hard to justify the 120pts, but time will tell.

Slaughterbrute and Soul Grinder did nothing as usual, still nice for the rule of cool. Will try the next game without one of them so I can include some Warriors as battleline.

All in all a great first experience, althrough I have to learn to handle my hate on Death-Reanimation and heal

 

Why the Lord on Manticore? Isnt it arguably the worst option now?

[PALFORLIFE]

1 hour ago, Charleston said:

Okay, first game done today. 2vs 2 with Gobbos against Sylvaneth and OBR (Petrifex).

My list was the Despoilers Khorne List mentioned above:

  Hide contents

Despoilers

Daemon Prince - Mark of Khorne - General - Trait: Radiance of Dark Glory

Daemon Prince - Mark of Khorne

Chaos Lord on Manticore - Mark of Khorne - Diabolic Mantle (D3 CP´s)

Chaos Lord - Mark of Khorne

Chaos Knights - Lances - Mark of Khorne

Chaos Chariot - Greatblade - Mark of Khorne

Slaughterbrute - Mark of Khorne

Soul Grinder - Mark of Khorne

 

Slaughterbrute and Soul Grinder did nothing as usual, still nice for the rule of cool. Will try the next game without one of them so I can include some Warriors as battleline.

Can I ask what or how you played the grinder? To me it's easily one of the best units in the book? Mark of Khorne and make sure it's in the aura for melee profit?